Saints vs Sarries

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NORTHAMPTON SAINTS TEAM TO PLAY SARACENS
Aviva Premiership Rugby Round 9
Franklin’s Gardens
Saturday, November 26th, 2011
Kick off 5:00pm
15 Ben FODEN
14 Chris ASHTON
13 George PISI
12 James DOWNEY
11 Jamie ELLIOTT
10 Ryan LAMB
9 Lee DICKSON
1 Soane TONGA’UIHA
2 Dylan HARTLEY (capt)
3 Paul DORAN JONES
4 Courtney LAWES
5 Mark SORENSON
6 Phil DOWSON
7 Tom WOOD
8 Roger WILSON

Replacements
16 Mike HAYWOOD
17 Alex WALLER
18 Brian MUJATI
19 Samu MANOA
20 Ben NUTLEY
21 Martin ROBERTS
22 Stephen MYLER
23 Jon CLARKE




Saracens line-up vs Northampton Saints

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Chris Wyles
12 Brad Barritt
11 James Short
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ben Spencer
1 Rhys Gill
2 John Smit
3 Carlos Nieto
4 Steve Borthwick (c)
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Kelly Brown
7 Jacques Burger
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 Deon Carstens
18 Matt Stevens
19 George Kruis
20 Jackson Wray
21 Luke Baldwin
22 Adam Powell
23 Duncan Taylor

Pretty strong teams. Both taking it very seriously. Saints interestingly don't want to give their England boys a rest. Will be interesting to see how the furore surrounding the England world cup debacle affects the Saints boys.

4 noticeable absentees for Sarries - Charlie Hodgson is out with the knee injury, Schalk Brits still serving his 3 week ban and two first choice scrum halves out for most of the season. This means a reshuffle of the backline. Ben Spencer the 19 year old ex Cambridge scrum half starts yet again leading to a very youthful halfback combo as Farrell moves to fly half.

Wyles moves to outside centre as the short term solution in that area.

Largely settled pack. Stevens makes way for the more adept scrummager Nieto.


The Saints side is made up of the usual suspects with the England boys being the backbone of their team.

This loss could be a blessing in disguise as long as we learn from it. It's not all doom and gloom. We are still 2nd. We are still well poised in the HC.

London Irish need to feel the pain of a wounded side now!

Every team will lose a game or two during a season. Though the manner of the defeat will no doubt be unpleasent for the Sarries players they are still in a good position and there's plenty of time to go.

Will Farrell keep the 10 shirt or will Goode be staking a claim?

Hopefully Hodgson will be back for London Irish.

I want Goode to re-find his form at FB before trying him at fly half!

In regards to Farrell I think inside centre is the position he should focus upon unless he can develop a more attacking style.

Is he good enough to displace Barritt from 12 though?

I won't comment on his attacking ability ball in hand, you are aware of my view on it.

Sam he doesn't need to displace Barritt. He can share the no 12 jersey with him in my opinion.

Yes I know your opinions about Farrell.

If he share's the 12 shirt that will cut down on his game time or is there more distance in him playing 13 until Barritt gets called up or is rested/injured?

Any news on the return to form of Powell or Joel Tomkins progress?

No progress on Joel Tomkins. I think it will be a while till we see him lining up for Saracens -he is being earmarked as a long term solution at outside centre.

If Hodgson's back at fly half Farrell will likely move back to outside centre.

Outside centre is a big problem for us with no player holding their hands up. Currently the likes of Farrell and Wyles are stop gaps.

I think Saracens are pinning their hopes on Joel Tomkins and academy youngster, Sam Stanley.

It wouldn't surprise me if Powell leaves. It would be a shame but he's not getting that much gametime as he is not being trusted at outside centre for whatever reason.

The main problem positions for Saracens currently are outside centre and the frontrow.

The frontrow has especially looked exposed against Biarritz and Saints.

Those teams have big front rows and to compete with the likes of them it will take serious investment. Trust me as a Tigers fan we know that there will be no big outside backs signings and that the majority of the salary cap will be used to secure front five strength (though the lock situation still concerns me).

Outside centre is a tricky position. There needs to be a mix of power and pace as well as awareness in defence. Would be a shame for Powell to be spending a year on the sidelines.

Sam to be honest where do you think Leicester needs strengthening? Ok possibly one hooker and one winger but where else?

Why does lock concern you? I thought you had numerous on the books.

You could play this team

1.Ayerza
2.Chuter
3.Castro
4.Deacon
5.Parling (your hero)
6.Croft
7.Salvi
8.Waldrom/Crane
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Tait
12.Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.Tuilagi
15.Murphy

Well Carstens and Hougaard are leaving which will free some salary cap space. Nieto will likely play one more season but after that.... The other props bar Stevens like Gill,Du Plessis,Vunipola and Saunders won't be on high salaries.

Hooker is a definite weakness for us.
Chuter has been a magnificent club man, and brings something to the squad that is disappearing from rugby (that pre-professional attitude and experience of something other than rugby - how many players would just decide to pack a rucksack and travel the world?).

Second row is not really an issue. There are various problems with players - but really the position is covered.

The back division just needs a bit more pace.

The other props bar Stevens like Gill,Du Plessis,Vunipola and Saunders won't be on high salaries..

Signing quality replacements will be pricey though. Was using Tigers as an example, we don't need replacements but just holding onto our international props is expensive. Castro, Ayerza, Cole and Stankovitch take up roughly a quarter of the wage bill (or will when Ayerza and Cole sign their new contracts).

The locks concern me because although, Deacon and Parling are an excellent combination the options after that have deficiencies that mean they are unlikely to offer much in the way of competition. Skivs is neither powerful enough to act as an enforcer nor good enough in the lineout to take control of it, Slater is a decent jumper but not much of a lineout caller and lacks agression (despite his size), Kitchener is good but currently struggling to adapt to the technical side of the Tigers and Mafi is a good cover player but lacks the grunt for the big occasions. Means we are targetable in the lineout minus Deacon and Parling (as Sarries enjoyed last season) and minus Deacon lack a natural enforcer.

Hooker is another headache as Chuter is aging and Hawkins is ok but not HEC class currently a great deal is relient on Tom Youngs stepping up. A similar problem is emerging at 15 where Murphy has reigned for going on for a decade. Morris is solid but not spectacular and likely to be re-signed by an Irish club when his contract expires in 2013 and Tait is not fit enough of the time to offer competition and a long term solution.

What is the Matthew Tait situation currently?

I think the idea in the long term is develop the likes of Vunipola, Saunders (when not injured) and Auterac but we need some experienced operators in the meantime. Yes they are expensive but I am sure Carstens is on a hefty salary.

Unfortunately Saunders and Vunipola are currently injured for a long time!

Nick Auterac is the one to watch though. Been U18s loosehead prop. Been picked for the England U20s squad.

I rather enjoyed seeing Saffas get a drubbing. Still not quite sure how such a predictable side have managed to achieve what they have acheived. This could be the turning point, Saints did their homework and blew them away. Other teams need only do the same now. This match also highlighted to me that the likes of Farrell, Goode and Co shouldn't be considered for senior international duty - yet.

It could be the turning point but I doubt it. One match doesn't make a bad team.

Time For Trumpton wrote:I rather enjoyed seeing Saffas get a drubbing. Still not quite sure how such a predictable side have managed to achieve what they have acheived. This could be the turning point, Saints did their homework and blew them away. Other teams need only do the same now. This match also highlighted to me that the likes of Farrell, Goode and Co shouldn't be considered for senior international duty - yet.

So all the guys with Saints aren't ready for international rugby yet since they were battered by the Scarlets? Basing any opinion on one game is foolish, be that a player is a world beater or that he's rubbish.

Exactly HammerofThunor. I thought the posters jumping on the bandwagon when Saints lost to Scarlets was ludricrous.

Matt Tait is still struggling with his groin injury and is supposed to be back some time in December. I'm hoping he'll be a bench option for the Clermont games but I won't hold my breath. Shame as he clearly has talent and clearly was fitting in well.

Under 20 props aren't feasible options for the first team that often. We've got two ex-under 20s in Bower and Harris and both are decent but the position requires experience and so they are still developing. Props like Cole who are ready early in their 20s are unusual. I wouldn't be suprised if Sarries bid for an international prop in the summer.

Shame about Tait I think he could still potentially be a great signing though.

I am sure Saracens will bid for at least one prop.

This was I think a really bad result for us. A close defeat for Sarries would have been better for us, as the manner of this one says to me that there will be a real backlash from them next week, which is likely to make life very difficult for my boys!

Ozzy I hope so.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I wouldn't be suprised if Sarries bid for an international prop in the summer.

Other than the £300k they have offered Cole?

beshocked wrote:Exactly HammerofThunor. I thought the posters jumping on the bandwagon when Saints lost to Scarlets was ludricrous.

[right]

Calling them 'cretins' was even more ludicrous.

Is £300k really that much for a top notch international prop? They do command vast wages after all.

LondonTiger what's Cole on currently?

Cole signed his current contract before becomming an international just after he broke into the Tigers first team. Hence I'd estimate it's only around half of the £300kish he's likely to get now. There are rumours suggesting he and Ayerza have agreed the new contracts and they just need to be signed.

For Sarries I thought they might have bid for Paul Doran-Jones when he went to Saints last season. How long is Murray's contract at Faclons? Mullan and Corbisiero are due new deals aren't they? Would be a class loosehead allowing Stevens to cover tighthead more often and give Nieto more rest, White has lasted much longer because of the additional rest periods at Tigers.

I think Sarries till target a loosehead like the beast or Corbisierio in my opinion. Possibly Dean Greyling could be a target too (recommended by a poster called McSaracens on unofficial Saracens board). Mullan would be a good shout too.

Ayerza and Cole will in all likelihood stay at Leicester.

Definitely wouldn't want Euan Murray as Saracens play most of their home games on a Sunday....... Who would want a player who makes himself unavailable half the time?

Definitely wouldn't want Euan Murray as Saracens play most of their home games on a Sunday

Hehe yeah that would be unfortunate.

Dean Greyling the Bok international who is on the fringes of selection? I've heard good things about him.

Yep that's the one. McSaracens or was it Saracens4life on the unofficial Saracens network board recommended him as a good signing.

Is it likely to happen? I'd recommend James O'Connor to Tigers as the long term answer to Geordie but it won't happen.

Well as James O'Connor has signed for the Rebels I can't see it happening...

It certainly has more chance than that. Dean Greyling is South African. If the price is right.....

Well that is true of 90% of players. If the price is right they'll go. Quick look at Wiki tells me that he made his Boks debut in July and has a couple of caps (I thought he'd been capped before then), however, will he want to come to England with a new coach on the way and at 27 playing for the Blue Bulls it is the perfect time for him to stake a claim for a green and gold jersey. His international aspirations could be a big thing, will depend on who SA finally name as their head coach I suppose as with SA politics if it's the wrong person from his point of view he might never get another cap irrelevent of form.

Time For Trumpton wrote:I rather enjoyed seeing Saffas get a drubbing. Still not quite sure how such a predictable side have managed to achieve what they have acheived. This could be the turning point, Saints did their homework and blew them away. Other teams need only do the same now. This match also highlighted to me that the likes of Farrell, Goode and Co shouldn't be considered for senior international duty - yet.

Defence wins titles. Sarries have a formidable defence and work very hard at it. But it doesn't produce high scorelines and many cry 'boring' or 'predictable' at their style of play. But it works.

How did Tom Wood not start more games at the WC?
England need to start building their backrow around him, he's simply fantastic.

According to the leaked reports, other players in camp couldn't understand his bench-warming either...

Its one game, lets not read too much into this.
Was Farrell likley to be in the England team for the 6 nations? No. Is he any less likely to be in the england team at some point in the future because of this game? No.

Was Tom Wood in the England squad on merit? Yes. Was he in witha shot at getting in the 6 nations side before this game? Yes.


Its not changed the world.

Metal Tiger

To answer your question bluestonevedder most England fans don't know why he wasn't picked. Though a possible explanation could be having Moody as captain and you can't drop your captain can you?

Agree Peter Seabiscuit.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Was Tom Wood in the England squad on merit? Yes. Was he in witha shot at getting in the 6 nations side before this game? Yes.

Not really too sure what you mean by this...

But what I'm saying is that based on his recent performances (up to an including this game), he should have cemented his spot in the starting squad. In many people's opinions, he should have cemented his spot for the WC games too. He's the closest thing to a 7 we currently have close to the EPS squad.

Blame it on the incompetence of the England management.

@beshocked.

I'm sure Moody's captaincy was part of the reason, keeping a fully-deserving player out of the squad. This raises a whole other kettle of fish, which quite frankly, reeks...so I shall stay away from it.

Best to bluestonevedder. In hindsight

I am glad there weren't too many Sarries involved in England though of the ones involved - Stevens has lost form, Wigglesworth is injured and Botha (who was in the preliminary squad) hasn't looked the same since being exposed to the England management.

Fingers crossed the guys pump themselves up for London Irish and give them a good hiding. Hopefully Charlie Hodgson will be back.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Was Tom Wood in the England squad on merit? Yes. Was he in witha shot at getting in the 6 nations side before this game? Yes.

Not really too sure what you mean by this...

But what I'm saying is that based on his recent performances (up to an including this game), he should have cemented his spot in the starting squad. In many people's opinions, he should have cemented his spot for the WC games too. He's the closest thing to a 7 we currently have close to the EPS squad.

What I mean is that coaches tend to bas etheir selection on more than one game. If hes inline for an england place it wont be solely down to this performance.


With regard to England yes Moody possibly was the decider there, but dont forget that Haskell and Foruie had both performed well for England in the 7 shirt too. Wood was hardly alone in feeling hard done by on that score. Moody earned his captaincy on both playing and leadership merit, and noone else stood up to take that role from him (jesus imagine if Tindall had been the captain!). Its unfortunate for a all sorts of reasons the way things went with his injuries and others not giving Johnson the opportunity to do without him.

beshocked, I suspect that if yourselves and us both play as we did at the weekend then it will be a low scoring game with both teams totals divisible by three. Whilst I'll settle for that if our score is three points bigger than yours, hopefully both teams will try to play a bit and it will be a more entertaining game.

Big fan of Wood but he didnt do himself justice in the warm up games (albeit after a very long season) so can understand why he was overlooked during the WC.

Suspect he'll be one of the first on the team sheet now though

beshocked wrote:Fingers crossed the guys pump themselves up for London Irish and give them a good hiding. Hopefully Charlie Hodgson will be back.

Agree you need Charlie Hodgson at 10 , you looked a little 1 dimensional last Sat

Still its only 4 points won / lost
Fair play to the Sarries fans kept the banter up even when the match was long gone