RJJ VS Hoppo - Why the green argument doesn't wash!!

1. When does he stop becoming green??? When he beats some average fighter for the world title and defends it against another average fighter..

2. How many fights can prepare a guy for RJJ one of the most talented fighters out there...Would Frazier have been green if he'd lost the fight of the century???

3. What does Hoppo do stylistically now than he didn't then....So two more fights would've given him the experience and know how to beat Jones jr????

4. Who else at the time couild live with RJJ??? Toney and others weren't in the same league...

5. People are happy to use a so-called green Nelson to bump up Sanchez legacy!!!!!! Would anyone pick Nelson to beat Sanchez in a return??

Come on guys let's just give RJJ his due..In his prime he had too much for Hoppo end of...Nothing could prepare Hoppo for Jones jr or the other way around..

Jones was too good...let's cut the green stuff....experience is only good when you know what you are dealing with or are on the same level..Jones showed he was on a different level...at his best!

It's an underrated victory for sure. Some guys just don't like Jones and people like Hill become bums.

"And they got the nerve to say I aint fight nobody
I just make'em look like nobody"

I actually think he WAS green but see RJJ beating him anyway - best for best - just not so easily. Hopkins doesn't win in his own prime because he was a little more aggresive then. To beat RJJ you have to make him miss and counter him at the same time or else you hit air all night, the slightly less cagey version of Hopkins got taught a lesson and the cagey one would be taught the same. No way you will beat him to the punch. RJJ was special - but the ease with which he dispatched his opponents seems to count against him in perception - people like to make excuses agaiinst him. I can only think of Hearns in relatively modern times, who I would back to beat him

I just don't see how in another year this guy loses the green tag and gives RJJ a lesson Scotty...

Green is just used by detractors to sully a great fighter...

Who does he beat?? to prepare him for RJJ...

Thanks for the post Shah.....Thing is when does a guy stop being green...

Let's face it Curry would have got no credit for beating Honeyghan....

However nobody said what a great win it was for a "Green" Honey who hadn't fought anybody in Curry's league..

My take is you try your best with what you have....Sure you can learn to pace yourself better and other things like that...

But your talent threshold remains the same....and he wasn't in RJJ's league talent wise..

Hopkins had fought over 20odd times so was hardly a novice,fact was prime RJJ was on another level to anyone else,saddens me when people try to discredit Jones, if you don't like him fair enough but you can't take it away at his best one of the best boxers in History.

There is something to a green argument....People like Freddie Pendleton and Jersey Joe were fed to the wolves before they found their feet in the business.....

But I fail to see how Nelson smacking out say a Gomez before Sanchez or Hoppo beating a Nunn (Not the religious type) say.. before a Jones fights makes him anymore likely to win...

Cheers Nico.......agree with your summary..

Don't think you can consider either fighter to have been at there best at the time, in hindsight the fight looks bigger than it actually was. Two up and coming fighters fighting in there first world title fight for a vacant belt, were it to have happened a few years later then the fight would have held greater significance.

Ya'll must have forgot just how good Jones jr was.

Why would it be more significant?????

Who's to say they weren't at their best then???

Who's to say Nelson wasn't at his best when he lost to Sanchez??

Hoppo lost to a brilliant fighter by four rounds...Jones beat an exceptional fighter by 4 rounds...

Could anybody else at that time have beaten Hoppo like that?? Or extended Jones like that..

All I'm saying is that you can call Hoppo...greeen, brown, blue or ginger but like Tate who beat Olajide, Parker and Sibson before fighting Michael Nunn..

Nothing could prepare him for a guy like that....and Nunn was much greener..

Truss you're never going to convince me the pair were at there bests because they simply weren't, it was still another couple of years until we saw the best of Jones and another 4 til the best of Hopkins.

Hopkins style is based upon experience, at that point he didn't have the experience to become the fighter he later would.

Very good win! He had 20 odd fights if say for instance If floyd or manny fights Alvarez or khan and come out with a win they would say they wher green even though both in the next year will be better than any other option other than martinez and maybe bradly!if they become greats in 10 years time mayweather and Mannys win would become the same as RJJ

Hopkins style was based upon experience???

Geb....When does a guy start to change from green to Brown....

If Benitez beat Leonard..would his win have been diminished because Ray was green???

Just doesn't wash.....If Hoppo fights for a year before Jones who does he beat to give him the experience to beat RJJ....

He won a belt a year later I'm think!he won a lot of fights between that time but was still only a year later! So even if they 1-3 years later etc I still don't think he would've won at any point round about that time

Thing is Lewis is given great credit for beating Vitali now...as he has gone on to dominate the heavies...

Yet Jones beat a "green" Hoppo....What's the difference???

That was my point with khan and Alvarez! Vitali at the time was vastly underated and if not for the cut could've been a huge upset! It's really impossible to say when they stop becoming Green tho as belts are so easy to win, you can become a belt holder these days and still not be very good! But I still feel at any time when RJJ was prime he still would've won! Only recently last few years Hopkins would be better IMO

If Jones never fought Hopkins and just by past him there would be even more of a debate about him never fighting him and ducking another opponent! So some fighters can never win! You can never fight everyone in there prime

Guess we all agree the green argument doesn't wash then..

He was still a bit green, HOWEVER it wouldn't have had any bearing on the fight in my opinion.

Hopkins improved after that fight, thats the arguement.

jones beat him and was better, but hopkins improved and we will never know if jones could have still beaten an improved version of bernard.

confidence is evrything in a fight, and had hopkins gotten a rematch a couple of years later he would have been a different animal to deal with altogether. still an excellent victory for jones though and it certainly shouldnt be discredited. hopkins wasnt green, and he gave a decent account of himself in what was a closer fight than most people remember, but there was better to come from hopkins, and i would have liked to have seen them fight again much sooner than they did.

If he improved it was because he lost to Jones!!!! So how does he ever lose the green-ness if he never fights him?????

Who does Hoppo beat to prepare him for Jr...

No one........................ hence the green excuse doesn't wash..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If he improved it was because he lost to Jones!!!! So how does he ever lose the green-ness if he never fights him?????

Who does Hoppo beat to prepare him for Jr...

No one........................ hence the green excuse doesn't wash..

no the green excuse doesnt wash.
hopkins improved because he is a dedicated student of the game who continued to learn and also got the sort of confidence and winning mentality that comes with being a world champion. he wanted the rematch because he knew he had become a better fighter and had a better chance of winning.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Thing is Lewis is given great credit for beating Vitali now...as he has gone on to dominate the heavies...

Yet Jones beat a "green" Hoppo....What's the difference???

The simple fact is that RJJ has many detractors who will never give him credit. He is one of the best boxers who ever walked this earth. People will say he never fought anyone or challenged himself. The fact is that he made all his opponents look very ordinary.

Lance wrote:Hopkins improved after that fight, thats the arguement.

jones beat him and was better, but hopkins improved and we will never know if jones could have still beaten an improved version of bernard.

confidence is evrything in a fight, and had hopkins gotten a rematch a couple of years later he would have been a different animal to deal with altogether. still an excellent victory for jones though and it certainly shouldnt be discredited. hopkins wasnt green, and he gave a decent account of himself in what was a closer fight than most people remember, but there was better to come from hopkins, and i would have liked to have seen them fight again much sooner than they did.

A rematch would have been hard to sell. RJJ schooled Hoppo and everyone and their uncle knew that another fight would have produced the same result. Interestingly Hop chased RJJ and wanted him ot come down in weight and have parity in the purses. How ridiculous is that?

Never understand how scorecards of 116-112 represent a schooling, he proved beyond doubt he was the better boxer at the time but didn't school Hopkins as some would suggest.

Hopkins probably was a bit green at the time. Remember he took the sport up late so never had much of an amateur career. The only thing for me is that even if BHop had took on another couple of top 160lbs guys before RJJ it wouldn't have really prepared him for what was just a freak of a talent with a horrific style to come up against.

20 fight pro with no amateur experience?

Yeah, he was right at the top of his game.

Was that the same BHop who dismantled Tito for instance? Nope.

So in summary, shut up.

Also worth noting that Jones fought almost the entire fight one-handed.

azania wrote:

Lance wrote:Hopkins improved after that fight, thats the arguement.

jones beat him and was better, but hopkins improved and we will never know if jones could have still beaten an improved version of bernard.

confidence is evrything in a fight, and had hopkins gotten a rematch a couple of years later he would have been a different animal to deal with altogether. still an excellent victory for jones though and it certainly shouldnt be discredited. hopkins wasnt green, and he gave a decent account of himself in what was a closer fight than most people remember, but there was better to come from hopkins, and i would have liked to have seen them fight again much sooner than they did.

A rematch would have been hard to sell. RJJ schooled Hoppo and everyone and their uncle knew that another fight would have produced the same result. Interestingly Hop chased RJJ and wanted him ot come down in weight and have parity in the purses. How ridiculous is that?

well ive spoken to many people who think hopkins would have won a rematch a couple of years later, and schooling?? have you ever watched the fight?

Was that the same BHop who dismantled Tito for instance? Nope.

So in summary, shut up.

Was not same weight! people slag off mayweather for dismantling Hatton and marquez for being a weight or 2 below there best so why not do same for Hopkins?

No doubt Hopkins improved but IMO would never have a chance when RJJ in his prime

Sounds like I'm a mayweather wum but I'm really now

*not

Bloody phones

"So in summary shut up"

Can we bring back trash talk for Coxy..he's out of his depth on here..

class act..

I've never really bought the 'BHop was green' arguement when discussing his fight with RJJ.

Could you not argue that RJJ was also 'green' i.e. Much like Degale vs Groves?

Valero's Conscience wrote:I've never really bought the 'BHop was green' arguement when discussing his fight with RJJ.

Could you not argue that RJJ was also 'green' i.e. Much like Degale vs Groves?

Not quite sure I agree with the Groves-DeGale analogy, given that Jones' professional career was launched off the back of a long and highly successful amateur career, the kind of amateur career which Hopkins simply didn't have.

That said, I agree with the general idea that Jones deserves more credit for beating Hopkins in 1993 than a lot of his critics are willing to grant him.

Lance wrote:

azania wrote:

Lance wrote:Hopkins improved after that fight, thats the arguement.

jones beat him and was better, but hopkins improved and we will never know if jones could have still beaten an improved version of bernard.

confidence is evrything in a fight, and had hopkins gotten a rematch a couple of years later he would have been a different animal to deal with altogether. still an excellent victory for jones though and it certainly shouldnt be discredited. hopkins wasnt green, and he gave a decent account of himself in what was a closer fight than most people remember, but there was better to come from hopkins, and i would have liked to have seen them fight again much sooner than they did.

A rematch would have been hard to sell. RJJ schooled Hoppo and everyone and their uncle knew that another fight would have produced the same result. Interestingly Hop chased RJJ and wanted him ot come down in weight and have parity in the purses. How ridiculous is that?

well ive spoken to many people who think hopkins would have won a rematch a couple of years later, and schooling?? have you ever watched the fight?

Yes I've watched the fight. I had RJJ winnind 9-3. In a rematch RJJ would have won by shutout.

Theres an ongoing myth that Hopkins was "outclassed" and "schooled" against Jones jr.

In someways the hbo commentry of Pacquaio v Marquez reminded me of it. Praising everything Jones jr did but not giving hopkins any mention!!

It was a competitive fight, both weren't at their very best, but in no way shape or form was Hopkins "schooled" or "outclassed". He gave Jones jr arguably his toughest fight prior to Tarver!!

Volcanicash wrote:Theres an ongoing myth that Hopkins was "outclassed" and "schooled" against Jones jr.

In someways the hbo commentry of Pacquaio v Marquez reminded me of it. Praising everything Jones jr did but not giving hopkins any mention!!

It was a competitive fight, both weren't at their very best, but in no way shape or form was Hopkins "schooled" or "outclassed". He gave Jones jr arguably his toughest fight prior to Tarver!!

9-3 is pretty comprehensive.

8-4 is hardly a schooling none the less.

Well Hopkins did "live" with RJJ. It was a very close fight (hard to score), boring cagey and almost devoid of action.

@Azania: Scoring it 9-3 to Jones makes me think you might have been listening to the commentary rather than watching the fight.

RJJ was a poor stylistic match for Hopkins at the time and probably at any time during their primes, but I thought they neutralised one another.