The double cross

Have heard commentators talk about this: set up to play a fade (classic Nicklaus method let's say - slightly open stance to encourage out-to-in swing and slightly open clubface), but end up drawing or hooking.

Not that I'm proficient enough to consistently shape shots, but having now experienced the double cross enough times to acknowledge it's not a myth / poncey term for a poor shot, can anyone provide knowledgeable commentary on why it happens (if it can be generalised)? I suppose I'm wondering if it's normally path or clubface.

Always bemuses (or infuriates depending on my mood) me how this silly game seems to work in opposites...

When you play a fade your are swinging on the plane of you feet, hips and shoulders which are pointing left of the target. The clubface should have been set up online with the target, so open in relation to your body set up. If you maintain the open clubface position relative to your body at impact you get a fade.

If you somehow how square the clubface up with the line of your body during the swing the face will be pointing left of the target (same line as body) and therefore no longer open.

The causes for this could be numerous;

Failure to properly align clubface at set up

Too strong a grip

Not following proper swing plane and swinging over the top. So your hand and arms loose sync with your body at the transition and move too far towards the ball at the top

Under rotation of hips in relation to body.

No doubt people will contribute more.

Not 100% sure on main reasons but grip and an OTT move won't help matters. I have to comment on the fade in general though:

Skydriver wrote:...classic Nicklaus method let's say - slightly open stance to encourage out-to-in swing and slightly open clubface...

Most pros don't fade the ball like this; they have a stance aiming left of target but their swing path is definitely not out-to-in. They still use good swing mechanics and their swing path is in-to-out with respect to their stance but the clubface is open to the swing path hence a fade. The reason they don't miss the target right (for a right-hander) is they start the ball left of target.

McLaren wrote:...The clubface should have been set up online with the target, so open in relation to your body set up.

Trackman has proven that the initial ball direction is overwhelmingly to do with the clubface and not the swing path. If you setup for a fade with the clubface square to the target (and return it there at impact), you're going to miss it right of target (for a right hander) once the fade has done it's work.

Navy

Not doubting you in anyway, but just to clarify I should set the clubface just left of the intended target when setting up for a fade? I loose fades right quite often so maybe this is something I need to look at.

McLaren wrote:Navy

Not doubting you in anyway, but just to clarify I should set the clubface just left of the intended target when setting up for a fade? I loose fades right quite often so maybe this is something I need to look at.

Yeah. You want stance left, club a little bit less left and then you want a nice, in-to-out swing path but such that the actual path is a little left of the target line. Ball starts on clubface line and fades back onto target line. Picture below might help re. the differing paths/alignments:

Spoiler:

What you then have to do by experimenting/practice is determine how far left your stance needs to be such that your natural in-to-out swing path is actually travelling left of the target line at the point of impact and also how far left of target line you need to align the clubface. Ball will start a little left of clubface alignment as some of the contribution to initial direction does come from path but most (maybe 80%) comes from face alignment. Overall, you want the path at point of impact to be, say, -4° to target line, club face at, say, -2° to target line and Bob's your Mother's brother. Did any of that make sense????

Hogan's explanation on how to fade is also worth mentioning.

Address ball, if you want to fade imagine you are standing on the edge of the circle. if you want to fade the ball move anticlockwise on the circle, thus opening your stance. Similarly if you want to draw the ball, move clockwise on the imaginary circle. .....Simples!