Nadal's Response

by 10IS Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:26 am

Virtual Nadal short Q&A session, which I am sure will rile quite a few posters. That is not my intention though. Feel like many posters are unfairly cirtical of Nadal. So I am taking the other side. FYI i always support Nadal in Federer v Nadal matches Wink

606V2 Nadal Critic(s) : You are a moonballer. A physical player. Your strategy is to tire down your opponent. Boo!

Rafa's Response:
Last I heard moon-balling wasn't a illegal. Physical steam

? Do you think I just turned physical overnight? It is a result of countless hours I put in the gym to get stronger so I could play for hours on without getting tired. And what is wrong with tiring your opponents down? Its
called strategy Doh

..you know that each player has based on his/her strength. One of my strengths is physicality and I will use every
drop of it to win a match. Some players play attacking style, I play tennis like a game of chess, where I slowly strangle my opponents
using moonballing, waiting for them to make mistakes, making them run olympic marathons Yahoo

606V2 NC(s): You have no talent. Federer is so talented. He floats like a butterfly his forehand stings like a bee.

Rafa's response:

When Nature/God was handing out that talent tonic on the human gene pool, I missed out on the lottery. Is that a shame? You should be praising me that I have relied more on my hard work and less on the random tennis-genius gene pool lottery to get this far. I take that as a complement. Sure I don't float like a butterfly bit boy my forehand feels like a sledge hammer. Just ask you know who.

606V2 NC(s): But by being physical you have forced other players to be so physical that non-physical players cannot win despite being
talented.

Rafa's Response: Too bad. Maybe they should play the gene pool lottery and ask for more talent from GOD Yahoo

again

606V2 NC(s): But Djoko gave you a real beating this year. 6-0. He used your strategy against you. Now you will never win against him. Many new players will suddenly grow physical and beat you. You are doomed.

Rafa's response: Yes I lost to Djoko, but as far as I know the 2011 is not the end of tennis. Some of the mathces I lost to Djoko were close ones and I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long. would like to turn it around next year. Djoko was my boogeyman this year. I have to admit it and try to turn it around next year. PEACE!

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:47 am

Despite his intense rivalry with Federer, Nadal has a notably good relationship with the Swiss player. 'I am fond of him,' the Spaniard says, without abandoning his dream of one day playing a doubles tournament with Federer.

https://www.606v2.com/t20312-the-ultimate-doubles-team

10IS wrote:Just ask you know who.

Vol-de-mort (Death of Lov[e]) died in Deathly Hallows Part 2. Will have to ask JKR, instead. Wink

10IS wrote:I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long.

No one can, which also includes Nadal. Can he sustain his forehand [that] feels like a sledge hammer.? Erm

by 10IS Sat 17 Dec 2011, 3:33 am

No one can, which also includes Nadal. Can he sustain his forehand [that] feels like a sledge hammer.?

He sure did sustain it for a while back in the days as in '07'08'10. As for the future, who is to tell? I hope so, but I cant be sure. Nobody can!

by hawkeye Sat 17 Dec 2011, 7:48 am

10IS

Nice to see someone who admits to supporting Nadal on 606v2. I don't think its as rare as you might have been lead to believe by some of the comments. Its just that there are a few very vocal posters who do little else but churn out rubbish about him.

But I have to disagree with some of your response to his critism. I don't see Nadal's style as particuarly physical. Well not in comparison to other top players. Other players do more gym work and use special diets but he tends to do on court training. As for the "moonballing" I would say that the amount of spin he uses makes it a potential weapon rather than a method of keeping an opponant in the point to tire him out.

I also think Nadal is as "talented" as Federer. Of course they both play a different style but talent comes in all shapes and forms.

I do agree with the other things. Also its great to see a Nadal supporter who's not afraid of throwing a few punches...(well not real ones obviously)

by Tenez Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:11 am

Rafa's Response:
Last I heard moon-balling wasn't a illegal.

Certainly not, but glad you recognise you are one. Most of your fans are in denial.

Physical ? Do you think I just turned physical overnight? It is a result of countless hours I put in the gym to get stronger so I could play for hours on without getting tired.

Strange cause in some of your other interviews, you say you hate working in the gym and hardly do. And by the way, what do you think your competitors do in the meantime? having orgies? They also work extremely hard, strangely they don't come to the same results.

And what is wrong with tiring your opponents down? Its
called strategy ..you know that each player has based on his/her strength. One of my strengths is physicality and I will use every
drop of it to win a match.

There is nothing wrong except the fact that you have big variations of forms yourself. You say you are exhausted despite 6 weeks of rest then the following week you run like no-one else...and we have seen that pattern for the last 7 years.

Some players play attacking style, I play tennis like a game of chess, where I slowly strangle my opponents
using moonballing, waiting for them to make mistakes, making them run olympic marathons

Have you ever played chess? Chess is about mind, not legs and lungs, and outsmarting the opponent. We all know how you play and where you next shot is going to land. Hardly surprising us there like a good chess player'd do.

606V2 NC(s): You have no talent. Federer is so talented. He floats like a butterfly his forehand stings like a bee.

Rafa's response:

When Nature/God was handing out that talent tonic on the human gene pool, I missed out on the lottery. Is that a shame?

Appreciate your honesty there and this is something you confirm in your book. I just wish your fans woudl recognise that too.

Rafa's Response: Too bad. Maybe they should play the gene pool lottery and ask for more talent from GOD again

Good point. Likewise, it woudl be great if you could work a bit harder and last a proper season. Playing tennis at professional level is a full time job. from January to November not a seasonal one from May to August. So please keep up the push ups.

Being bagelled 3 times in a year, including by a player ranked 150 doesn't look good for a number 1.

Rafa's response: Yes I lost to Djoko, but as far as I know the 2011 is not the end of tennis. Some of the mathces I lost to Djoko were close ones

They were less and less close.

and I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long. would like to turn it around next year. Djoko was my boogeyman this year. I have to admit it and try to turn it around next year. PEACE!

Good luck.

[/quote]

by hawkeye Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:29 am

10IS

Oh dear! I suppose it was inevitable that you would attract one of those "vocal" posters that I mentioned. Stay strong and remember that the big majority here think that Nadal is OK or better.

https://www.606v2.com/t19569-just-how-good-is-rafael-nadal

by Tenez Sat 17 Dec 2011, 10:45 am

hawkeye wrote:10IS

Oh dear! I suppose it was inevitable that you would attract one of those "vocal" posters that I mentioned. Stay strong and remember that the big majority here think that Nadal is OK or better.

https://www.606v2.com/t19569-just-how-good-is-rafael-nadal

You too HE, Be strong! I'm sure you will survive. Take strength from the Murray fans who ride through the constant bashing by the ant-Murray "vocal" posters.

by noleisthebest Sat 17 Dec 2011, 11:42 am

At last.....a valiant effort from a Nadal fan clap

by noleisthebest Sat 17 Dec 2011, 11:45 am

"
Rafa's response: Yes I lost to Djoko, but as far as I know the 2011 is not the end of tennis. Some of the mathces I lost to Djoko were close ones and I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long. would like to turn it around next year. Djoko was my boogeyman this year. I have to admit it and try to turn it around next year. PEACE!"

How?

by luciusmann Sat 17 Dec 2011, 12:30 pm

Good question, I'm looking forward to finding out how too!

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 12:53 pm

luciusmann wrote:Good question, I'm looking forward to finding out how too!

Tenez wrote:Strange cause in some of your other interviews, you say you hate working in the gym and hardly do..

Gym work may actually help. Wink

. As Lydian says, he needs to get his mojo back.

by 10IS Sat 17 Dec 2011, 1:42 pm

Tenez wrote:
hawkeye wrote:10IS

Oh dear! I suppose it was inevitable that you would attract one of those "vocal" posters that I mentioned. Stay strong and remember that the big majority here think that Nadal is OK or better.

https://www.606v2.com/t19569-just-how-good-is-rafael-nadal

You too HE, Be strong! I'm sure you will survive. Take strength from the Murray fans who ride through the constant bashing by the ant-Murray "vocal" posters.

Thank you Hawkeye. I agree that Nadal probably has less vocal supporters on this thread. As for talent, it is a pointless debate since we are talking about something that has no mass and occupies no space...a ghost idea Rolling Eyes

Of course I and many others disagree, but then what is the point of debating an opinion which cannot be tested objectively/physically?

by 10IS Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:12 pm

Tenez wrote:
Rafa's Response:
Last I heard moon-balling wasn't a illegal.
Certainly not, but glad you recognise you are one. Most of your fans are in denial.
Physical ? Do you think I just turned physical overnight? It is a result of countless hours I put in the gym to get stronger so I could play for hours on without getting tired.
Strange cause in some of your other interviews, you say you hate working in the gym and hardly do. And by the way, what do you think your competitors do in the meantime? having orgies? They also work extremely hard, strangely they don't come to the same results.

Agree probably the top players on tour work equally hard, and yet I turned out fitter/stronger and as a result better tennis player than you know, just about everyone. why? maybe it has something to do with ..oh let me give you a hint..T _ _ _ _ T

And what is wrong with tiring your opponents down? Its
called strategy ..you know that each player has based on his/her strength. One of my strengths is physicality and I will use every
drop of it to win a match.
There is nothing wrong except the fact that you have big variations of forms yourself. You say you are exhausted despite 6 weeks of rest then the following week you run like no-one else...and we have seen that pattern for the last 7 years. ......

Its a fair criticism, but then over the past half a decade I have been running around a lot to make up for the "lack of talent" against a bloke who WOULD HAVE been mistakenly called the best over if it wasn't for my running around oops touchy subject, lets not go there. Point is you shouldnt be criticizing me for tiring given you claim that I am a physical player. Believe it or not I am also a human.

Some players play attacking style, I play tennis like a game of chess, where I slowly strangle my opponents
using moonballing, waiting for them to make mistakes, making them run olympic marathons
Have you ever played chess? Chess is about mind, not legs and lungs, and outsmarting the opponent. We all know how you play and where you next shot is going to land. Hardly surprising us there like a good chess player'd do.

Boy I think I "outsmarted" RF all right.... before me no one was able to figure out how to hurt RF. I think even you would agree that I did not use muscles to figure out what strategy hurts a guy who was mistakenly about to be called ........

606V2 NC(s): You have no talent. Federer is so talented. He floats like a butterfly his forehand stings like a bee.

Rafa's response:

When Nature/God was handing out that talent tonic on the human gene pool, I missed out on the lottery. Is that a shame?
Appreciate your honesty there and this is something you confirm in your book. I just wish your fans woudl recognise that too.

Naa I was jsut being nice to RF. I am more talented .....and I have the records to prove it. Anyway, who cares who is less/more talented? Its a subjective debate based on opinion than facts. And the facts that can be seen and measured like my tennis records are there for everyone to see. I rest my case.

Rafa's Response: Too bad. Maybe they should play the gene pool lottery and ask for more talent from GOD again
Good point. Likewise, it woudl be great if you could work a bit harder and last a proper season. Playing tennis at professional level is a full time job. from January to November not a seasonal one from May to August. So please keep up the push ups.

Being bagelled 3 times in a year, including by a player ranked 150 doesn't look good for a number 1.

A RF should not use the B word.... just google French Open

Rafa's response: Yes I lost to Djoko, but as far as I know the 2011 is not the end of tennis. Some of the mathces I lost to Djoko were close ones
They were less and less close.

and I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long. would like to turn it around next year. Djoko was my boogeyman this year. I have to admit it and try to turn it around next year. PEACE!

Good luck.

THANK YOU

[/quote]

by 10IS Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:18 pm

noleisthebest wrote:"
Rafa's response: Yes I lost to Djoko, but as far as I know the 2011 is not the end of tennis. Some of the mathces I lost to Djoko were close ones and I feel like he cannot sutstain that level of play for too long. would like to turn it around next year. Djoko was my boogeyman this year. I have to admit it and try to turn it around next year. PEACE!"

How?

I think his head will explode trying to figure out what he needs to defend from last year and he will implode..or at least I hope he does. I think his arms nearly fell off his shoulders by the end of the year. S0 by the time he gets them reattached and going, I will try to see what I can do.

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:48 pm

10IS wrote:I think his head will explode trying to figure out what he needs to defend from last year and he will implode..or at least I hope he does. I think his arms nearly fell off his shoulders by the end of the year. S0 by the time he gets them reattached and going, I will try to see what I can do.

In order to out-Nadal Nadal, Djokovic is becoming a closer and closer image of Nadal himself. As Tenez says, the May-to-August phenomenon is now affecting Nadal and Djokovic, both.

It would be good for Tennis to see a more consistent calendar from Top 4.

Djokovic - (76) 70-6 (Baseline)
Nadal - (84) 69-15 (8+)
Federer - (76) 64-12 (0+)
Murray - (69) 56-13 (7-)

by noleisthebest Sat 17 Dec 2011, 2:58 pm

"In order to out-Nadal Nadal, Djokovic is becoming a closer and closer image of Nadal himself. As Tenez says, the May-to-August phenomenon is now affecting Nadal and Djokovic, both."

Utter nonsense.
Where does that leave Federer ,then, the Basel-WTF man? Laugh

by Simple_Analyst Sat 17 Dec 2011, 3:22 pm

Laverfan, so you'll rather have Nadal and Djokovic condition themselves to win the career defining exhibitions like WTF, masters tournaments like Paris etc instead of winning slams? The fact that Nadal and Djokovic have forfeited the WTF the past to years to win DC shows where their priority lies. There's no rule
In tennis which says a player must play at top level from January to December.

by hawkeye Sat 17 Dec 2011, 4:00 pm

laverfan wrote:
10IS wrote:I think his head will explode trying to figure out what he needs to defend from last year and he will implode..or at least I hope he does. I think his arms nearly fell off his shoulders by the end of the year. S0 by the time he gets them reattached and going, I will try to see what I can do.

In order to out-Nadal Nadal, Djokovic is becoming a closer and closer image of Nadal himself. As Tenez says, the May-to-August phenomenon is now affecting Nadal and Djokovic, both.

It would be good for Tennis to see a more consistent calendar from Top 4.

Djokovic - (76) 70-6 (Baseline)
Nadal - (84) 69-15 (8+)
Federer - (76) 64-12 (0+)
Murray - (69) 56-13 (7-)

laverfan

Djokovic's playing style is nothing like Nadal's. I would put him in the same category as Davydenko. This is way off topic but whats happened to Davydenko?

May to August (or May to July or maybe May to half way through Sept) is the presigious historical tennis calender. Get the important trophies during that period and anything else is a bonus. Who is this "Tenez" that you quote? Is he or she a respected tennis authority.

As for wanting a more balanced calandar. Did you watch Nadal v Del potro in the Davis Cup? It made the WTF look like an exhibition...

by lags72 Sat 17 Dec 2011, 4:56 pm

laverfan - as regards "calendar consistency" : I guess the demands of the modern game are greater than ever, although the training regimes, facilities and professional expertise available today are also better than ever.

Rafa as we know had a memorable 2010, and now Novak has hit even greater heights in 2011. That said, it is nevertheless intriguing that relatively young, fit guys like Rafa and Novak appear to have trouble pacing themselves (sometimes even with the benefit of lengthy rest periods) for a full season when compared to previous generations.

All the past legends of the sport won the season-ending Masters Cup (now WTF) but at the same time they were also winning multiple Slams of course during the middle part of the year. Players like Lendl.... Sampras..... Johnny Mac.... Borg. And not forgetting Agassi, who managed to win both RG and USO and then still stay in good shape to win a Paris Masters in the same year. In his mid-twenties, the now-OAP Federer was routinely winning three Slams a year and the Masters Cup/WTF. Like Pete, he managed it five times.

Perhaps it is indeed partly a matter of poor conditioning or (more likely?) the physically-intense style of play - or a combination of both. Either way, I imagine any moves to shorten the season would be welcomed most of all by players who find themselves heavily fatigued come November.

by Tenez Sat 17 Dec 2011, 5:46 pm

It's not a question of "pacing" oneself. Cause the break they have after the USO is as big as the one they take after the Masters or DC.

When they play IW, Miami, MC, Barcelona, Madrid and Rome consecutively they are much more likely to be tired at the FO and even more so at Wimbledon than they would do after 6 weeks of rest at the WTF. Yet they are fine and struggle it out at Wimbledon's final, when frankly they should be completely knackered. But no, they still have the strength to play Canada, Cincy and the US after a 4 weeks rest.

It doesn't make sense to believe that they are tired at the end of season. Federer says he feels fresh entering Basel and very tired after WTF, simply because he plays 15 matches in 4 weeks. Yes that is exhausting. But he should be fresh again like Djoko and Rafa after the off-season.

by lydian Sat 17 Dec 2011, 7:08 pm

Yes but we know Nadal's compressed effort goes into just about 3-4 months of tennis from IW to Wimbledon which wipes him out for the rest of the year. It always has done. Come post-SW19 even though he takes a break the "damage" has often been done during the gruelling clay season. He has often played DC post-SW19 so unlike Federer who has rarely played DC his break isnt as long. Thats just stating the obvious, I dont thnik when he started out that he was bothered about postSW19 events, now he's starting to appreciate all the slams I think has only finally bitten the bullet that he needs to pace himself more evenly across the calendar, e.g. No DC!
BTW, playing 15 matches in 4 weeks isnt much different from playing Canada/Cincy, week off, then USO first'ish week (Bo5, not 3).

Re: Davydenko, seems to have hit a form dip this year, and didnt do wel on clay at all which he normally does. His key yrs were 05/06/07 when he should have done much better but choked in a number of close situations, partic vs Fed where he has uo in matches. ALSO had Puerta not been using drugs then Davy nay have got tot the final!! He let Fed off the hook in slams a couple of times..given his talent he's majorly underachieved due to his mind mainly.

Agree Nad and Djo have differnt styles. Yes LF, I remember the main thing Nadal is missin is his mojo. DC will have helped there so I'm expecting a ful guns blazing Rafa to appear at AO. I dont think Djo can sustain his 2011 form up to USO - I do believe it took a lot out of him mentally as well as physically, and the pressure was diff in 11 vs what it will be now in 12 - the hunter becomes the hunted!

by bogbrush Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:14 pm

The WTF is a bit more wearing because you generally play all tough matches.

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:17 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Where does that leave Federer ,then, the Basel-WTF man?

Post USO Djokovic
2008 - DC, Bangkok, Madrid, Paris, TMC
2009 - Beijing, Shanghai, Basel, Paris, WTF
2010 - DC, Beijing, Shanghai, Basel, Paris, WTF, DC
2011 - DC, Basel, Paris, WTF (no Asian swing)

Do you see what has happened in 2011? The MTO at USO 2011 or the DC match against Del Potro. Wink

Simple_Analyst wrote:
The fact that Nadal and Djokovic have forfeited the WTF the past to years to win DC shows where their priority lies.

Djokovic playing DC against Potro while being injured? Erm

Simple_Analyst wrote:There's no rule In tennis which says a player must play at top level from January to December.

There is no rule to be a member of ATP either. Laugh

Show up for the slams like someone from WTA that I know. Wink

hawkeye wrote:Djokovic's playing style is nothing like Nadal's. I would put him in the same category as Davydenko. This is way off topic but whats happened to Davydenko?

Where did I say the styles are similar? Erm

Out-Nadaling Nadal, does not mean the same playing style, does it?

hawkeye wrote:May to August (or May to July or maybe May to half way through Sept) is the presigious historical tennis calender.

Skipped AO? Laugh

What happened in 2009? Did 2009 suddenly show a magical quality at AO. You are using your own statement to justify your argument. Circular, perhaps.

hawkeye wrote:As for wanting a more balanced calandar. Did you watch Nadal v Del potro in the Davis Cup?

Both Del Potro and Nadal had long breaks prior to DC, or did you forget?

hawkeye wrote:It made the WTF look like an exhibition...

... and there are complaints of the two weeks of Wimbledon bringing out the typical British tennis fan. Laugh

Think NiTB went to WTF last year, correct?

lydian wrote:Yes but we know Nadal's compressed effort goes into just about 3-4 months of tennis from IW to Wimbledon which wipes him out for the rest of the year.

Thanks, Lydian. clap

Federer played the same number of matches as Djokovic (76) and seemed to have played consistently from January to November.

lydian wrote:I dont think Djo can sustain his 2011 form up to USO - I do believe it took a lot out of him mentally as well as physically, and the pressure was diff in 11 vs what it will be now in 12 - the hunter becomes the hunted!

That is precisely what my point to NiTB was. It would be good to have a healthy Top 4 return at AO, for the sake of Tennis.

Schedule Management, which should be a science, has now become an art form. Laugh

by noleisthebest Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:23 pm

"Thanks, Lydian. clap Federer played the same number of matches as Djokovic (76) and seemed to have played consistently from January to November."

LF,

you leave yourself wide open with comments like this....There's no need to exalt Federer by putting down other players. His play, results and dedication speak for themselves. Same for others.

Anyway, what are you cooking for Christmas? Nadal's Response 3513163098

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:28 pm

lags72 wrote:as regards "calendar consistency" : I guess the demands of the modern game are greater than ever, although the training regimes, facilities and professional expertise available today are also better than ever.

Would such demands reduce the lifespan of Tennis players, like the Sumo wrestlers? Erm

lags72 wrote:Rafa as we know had a memorable 2010, and now Novak has hit even greater heights in 2011. That said, it is nevertheless intriguing that relatively young, fit guys like Rafa and Novak appear to have trouble pacing themselves (sometimes even with the benefit of lengthy rest periods) for a full season when compared to previous generations.

Schedule management. The most troubling (at least for me) was Djokovic playing Paris despite not fully-rested.

lags72 wrote:All the past legends of the sport won the season-ending Masters Cup (now WTF) but at the same time they were also winning multiple Slams of course during the middle part of the year. Players like Lendl.... Sampras..... Johnny Mac.... Borg. And not forgetting Agassi, who managed to win both RG and USO and then still stay in good shape to win a Paris Masters in the same year. In his mid-twenties, the now-OAP Federer was routinely winning three Slams a year and the Masters Cup/WTF. Like Pete, he managed it five times.

Well said.

lags72 wrote:Perhaps it is indeed partly a matter of poor conditioning or (more likely?) the physically-intense style of play - or a combination of both. Either way, I imagine any moves to shorten the season would be welcomed most of all by players who find themselves heavily fatigued come November.

... and they the most vocal in mentioning the 'length' of the season as being a problem, rather than the playing styles. ITF/ATP can address this if they want.

One way (even if it would be considered a facetious suggestion), is to make the slams also best of three sets. Wink

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:40 pm

noleisthebest wrote:"Thanks, Lydian. clap Federer played the same number of matches as Djokovic (76) and seemed to have played consistently from January to November."

You leave yourself wide open with comments like this....There's no need to exalt Federer by putting down other players. His play, results and dedication speak for themselves. Same for others.

Anyway, what are you cooking for Christmas?

I am not exalting anyone, while my :hatoff: to Djokovic for a stellar season, I would like to see him play a bit more tennis over the next few years, at least. Neither am I putting any of the other players down. Wink

One way to solve the length of season debate, is to look at the number of matches played by Top 4 since, say 1970, till now, and compare.

Players have 13 mandatory tournaments (9 MSes + 4 Slams), and another 5 for the best of 18 ranking. Except Nadal (20), the other Top 3 have played 19 tournaments each. Top 5-10 have played more than 23+.

If you have any suggestions for Christmas recipes, I will gladly accept what you have, NiTB, and be thankful for them. kiss

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:46 pm

NitB... some good news for you.

Djokovic also announced his full recovery from the injuries that plagued him towards the end of what has been a magnificent year for the 24-year-old.

http://gulfnews.com/sport/tennis/novak-djokovic-sets-up-camp-in-abu-dhabi-1.952726

by Simple_Analyst Sat 17 Dec 2011, 8:56 pm

Well Federer is irrelevant in slams now so why waste energy on a tournament he will not win? He could then get himself in form for an end of season cameo when those winning slams are not too bothered to win.

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:04 pm

Simple_Analyst wrote:Well Federer is irrelevant in slams now so why waste energy on a tournament he will not win? He could then get himself in form for an end of season cameo when those winning slams are not too bothered to win.

Must tell Nadal to have the DC final moved to MC on April Fools Day instead of December, perhaps. Laugh

by noleisthebest Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:14 pm

LF,

I do hope Nole starts 2012 in the same shape as 2011. It doesn't need to be any better Smile

As for recipes, I've got tons, all my own ones , in my head...if Nole wins Olympic gold next summer, you're invited for a celebratory barbie...champers and marinated chicken a'la NITB Chef

by hawkeye Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:16 pm

The AO! Huh. Traditionally everyone missed the AO. Does no one realise how far away it was back then.

laverfan

What is it with you namesdropping all the time. Its not impressive... well certainly not the names you chose to drop... I watched both the WTF and the Nadal Del Potro Davis cup match. It would take more than a dubious name drop to make me change my mind over which was the higher quality.

by **laverfan** Sat 17 Dec 2011, 9:52 pm

hawkeye wrote:The AO! Huh. Traditionally everyone missed the AO. Does no one realise how far away it was back then.

So a motivated player won a GS in 1938, another won it twice in 1962 and 1969. Was it too far to travel in 1969 than it was in the jet age of 2000-2011? Laugh

hawkeye wrote:What is it with you namesdropping all the time. Its not impressive... well certainly not the names you chose to drop... I watched both the WTF and the Nadal Del Potro Davis cup match. It would take more than a dubious name drop to make me change my mind over which was the higher quality.

How can you compare a 'worthless' exhibition (as the Tennis Tutor of 606v2, SA says) made of the world's top 8 players to a DC final? Laugh

I have suggested to Helfant's replacement that the WTF should be played at MC on clay, in April (instead of scheduled MC masters) - Are you reading this, SA?.

BTW, there was another Spaniard, Ferrer, at WTF, if you care. He played 23 tournaments and a total of 78 matches (59-19). Wink

PS: Quality (like Beauty) lies in the eye of the beholder. Wink

. For me, both were great, WTF and DC had very good matches to offer. Ferrer vs. Del Potro was a wonderful match as well.

Del Potro had his chances against Nadal. But Nadal's tenacity was a marvel.

by hawkeye Sun 18 Dec 2011, 8:58 am

laverfan

This is how far away Australia was in the 40's and 50's. (source "Aussie" a well known expert on historical travel.)

The vast majority of travellers couldn't afford to travel by plane ....it was too darn expensive in those days !

For those who could, here is an extract from a BOAC (British Airline )
timetable 0f 1952 ...you'll note that the refueling stops were
o'nighters & that you'd actually touch down on Aussie soil at Darwin
very late in the evening of the 4th day !

London 0930 Day 1
Zurich 1200/1300
Beirut 2130
....Nightstop
Beirut 0945 Day 2
Karachi 2030/2300
Calcutta 0530/0645 Day 3
Singapore 1545
....Nightstop
Singapore 0800 Day 4
Jakarta 1030/1130
Darwin 2000/2245
Sydney 0700 Day 5

The more common form of travel was by ship via the Mediterranean & the Suez Canal....from London to Sydney took 6 weeks .

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101011052839AAiSD59

This was all pre open era of course. So expense would also have been a limiting factor.

by Tenez Sun 18 Dec 2011, 10:09 am

lydian wrote:Yes but we know Nadal's compressed effort goes into just about 3-4 months of tennis from IW to Wimbledon which wipes him out for the rest of the year. It always has done.

Again, the concept of working hard for 4 months and then being tired the rest of the year sounds great. But it's plain wrong and contradicts any physiological science.

If you have a tough match you are tired the next day, if you play 2 tough matches in a row, it's worse the third day and so on. However you rest one day, you are feeling better you rest 2 even better...and so on.

When Nadal played a 3 setter v Moya in India in 2008 he was completely spent the next day and got thrashed by Youzhny in the final. That was only a 3 setter at the very beginning of the year....right after what some would call the resting period. So the idea that Nadal can play 4 months non stop and feel fine in the Wimbledon final but then suddenly feel tired 4 weeks later is completely irrational. But that's what we have been told by his team and his fans to excuse all those weird losses outside slams which contrast so much from his slam results.

Nadal plays roughly 50 matches in 125 days from mid-March to End of June. That's about 1 match every 2.5 days, it must be particulary exhausting but what is extremely weird, contrary to all other players, is that Nadal is fine on his 50th match in that short period but then feels tired in his next match after 6 weeks of rest.

It simply doesn't make physiological sense.

by lydian Sun 18 Dec 2011, 1:41 pm

Who said he feels fine in Wimbledon finals? I think the clay season taxes him immensely with the ridiculous schedule he self-imposes and the fact he goes deep across them all inc. FO. I think he just about hangs on for Wimbers (which dont forget is almost right after FO) then fades afterwards...a break helps him "limp" on to USO.

Lets face it, he never does as well in the 2nd N.American Masters hardcourt season as he does in the first one at IW/Miami where his results are much stronger. I dont believe thats down to those courts (well Cincy mainly) being marginally faster as he's shown if pushes himself he can do well at similarly quick USO. But it does need a huge mental push at USO - one he's not prepared to do at Cincy particularly. Surely the 2nd HC vs 1st HC season comparison shows how his post IW/Miami/clay/Wimb form nosedives.
Then after USO he's usually pretty whacked until end of season.

Nadal can be up and down in non-slam events - always has been because he doesnt really take them that seriously - he's just focused on Slams, Masters and DC.
There is no other reason for it unless you're saying he's getting some form of "help" during slams?

Now that he's taking DC out of the picture, he'll be focusing on slams, clay and WTF (its the only gap on his CV) IMO...opefully cutting down the Asian tour beforehand.

But this is rear-mirror stuff. I think the current issue with Nadal is pure and simple. Loss of mojo/motivation.
Its affected him in a less significant way in the lesser 250 events (maybe even 500s latterly).
But its affected him more fundamentally through 2012.

Between you, me and the world...if he has another year of looking like he'd rather be anywhere than on a tennis court (ok DC ws different, but we know DC means alot to him due to patriotism and he's strong friends with many on the team, and "pico") then I think he'll pull a Borg. I dont think he plays to simply achieve results as such (I think Federer is actually more motivated in that regard). I think he was always fundamentally motivated by the sheer joy of applying himself to competing against others. He has said this many times.
This desire to compete strikes at the very cord of what Nadal is about - he's a fierce competitor first and foremost. This shows itself as a reason why he's so strong in close match situations when his competitive instinct becomes heightened and he gets even more aggressive. This fierce ability to compete and raise his game is based on a strong mindset, if his motivation wobbles the whole thing can crash like a house of cards. We saw what happened to the mental fortress Wilander in 1989...he wasnt mentally weak, he just lost his desire for the game. So did Borg. For some this happens...particularly those who achieve alot young...maybe Nadal could be the next great to retire young. I've never thought Nadal will go season after season until he's 30/31/32 with a slight decline each year.

Also, when we look at Nadal we see he's a very precise person. A perfectionist. He doesnt do things by half...indeed everything, and I mean everything, he does is carefully planned and executed. This applies yet more mental pressure to sustain "perfection" in everything around him and oncourt. So he has to really love what he does to continue applying himself in the way he does because his game is focused on huge mental focus and application. If that slips by just a few % points I susepcts he's more affected than some others at the top on tour - and if he doesnt enjoy competing on a tennis court anymore then his fundamental motivator is gone and I dont see him whimpering along in misery. He'll just go. The worry is that once you've lost your mojo in professional sport its very hard to get it back again for a number of reasons.

So I wouldnt be surprised to see Nadal retire in 2013 if 2012 carries on like 2011 where he didnt look happy at all on court. However, I dont think he's quite at that point.
Why? Because I suspect other factors than just the desire to want to compete at tennis have been on his mind through 2011 - many of these things being off-court or with his coaching team.

The key is finding his general enjoyment of competing at tennis again...and the reasons why he's not enjoying it the same at the moment. I suspect he's been having alot of heart to hearts with Toni, including how his overall game is managed and ran, and the input Nadal himself has into day to day preparations. Also, with his parents now being back to together he may also be more settled too considering how tightly knit the whole Nadal clan are. This must have been a source of worry for him in the past.
Once the mind is straight, the technicalities of improving groundstrokes and tactics, etc, can follow. But the mind is the key to wanting to learn and applying himself fully and I dont think its been right all 2011 despite him having a great season if you take Djokovic away. Can he turn it around in 2012...has the break since DC been long enough to allow him time to mentally refocus?

We'll see soon enough.

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 3:31 pm

hawkeye wrote:This is how far away Australia was in the 40's and 50's. (source "Aussie" a well known expert on historical travel.)

In 1975, see what happens to a 4-day trip. Wink

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ga/ga75.pdf

hawkeye wrote:This was all pre open era of course. So expense would also have been a limiting factor.

Why? The country Tennis Federations paid for travel in the Amateur days.

by Tenez Sun 18 Dec 2011, 3:47 pm

You do not seem keen to see the point Lydian.

Nadal plays 50 matches in 3 and a half months and plays amazing in his 49th match v Murray in that Wimbledon semi and goes on to play without trace of fatigue in the final either. In fact he plays better and seems in better shape in the second week of Wimbledon (I repeat, after having played 47 matches in 3 months) than in the first week of Wimbledon where he also gets a tough ride from Muller and Delpo. Then rests 5 weeks, plays terrible in Montreal and Cincy losing to guys like Dodig but then plays his best in the USO again.

Out of the blue, 3 weeks of rest later he gets thrashed by Murray in the 3rd set of SHanghai's final, completely running out of steam. Isn't that a contrast with his win v Murray just 3 weeks before in that USO semi? If he doesn;t care about TMS, how come he accumulated 18 of them? how come he reached the final there in SHanghai again? Clearly he wanted to win SHanghai, started strong by winning the first set but could not find the energy to close it.

Can we honestly imagine Rafa running out of steam in a slam in a 3rd set? when was the last time that happened in a slam?

I am afraid "motivation" cannot explain everything.

by hawkeye Sun 18 Dec 2011, 4:05 pm

Well I admit it must have got a bit quicker in the 70's. Up until the mid 70's the mens singles was dominated by Australian players. I'm not saying that Australian players were not good but they didn't dominate other slams in this way.

Even in the 80's the list of winners isn't reflective of the best players of the time. You may know better than me but was it really on the schedule of all the top players in the 80's? I know Borg and McEnroe didn't like making the jouney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Open_Men%27s_Singles_champions

My point was (if I can remember...) not that the AO isn't important now but that it wasn't always so. The official tennis "season" wasn't always as long or held in the same months as it is now.

As for Tennis Federations covering costs. Really? Any tennis player if they were talented enough could get their travel costs paid. Somehow I feel skeptical...

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 4:09 pm

Tenez wrote:
Out of the blue, 3 weeks of rest later he gets thrashed by Murray in the 3rd set of SHanghai's final, completely running out of steam. Isn't that a contrast with his win v Murray just 3 weeks before in that USO semi?

Are you perhaps talking about Tokyo 2011? Erm

Shanghai was Mayer in two sets. Wink

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 4:24 pm

hawkeye wrote:Even in the 80's the list of winners isn't reflective of the best players of the time. You may know better than me but was it really on the schedule of all the top players in the 80's? I know Borg and McEnroe didn't like making the jouney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Open_Men%27s_Singles_champions

My point was (if I can remember...) not that the AO isn't important now but that it wasn't always so. The official tennis "season" wasn't always as long or held in the same months as it is now.

Ashe, Connors, Gerulaitis, Vilas, GB's Lloyd in 1970s.

Wilander, Edberg, Lendl in 80s.

A pretty good set of players, even if Borg and McEnroe did not show up, don't you think?

hawkeye wrote:As for Tennis Federations covering costs. Really? Any tennis player if they were talented enough could get their travel costs paid. Somehow I feel skeptical...

In those days, tennis was angrily split in two - the amateurs, whose officials controlled all tournaments around the world, and the professionals, controlled by Kramer, who took his pros on world tours playing on rented amateur courts. The top amateurs existed on reasonable contracts and travel expenses supplied by major sports goods companies and occasionally picked up mysterious brown paper bags after major tournament wins. Never did find out what was in those brown paper bags, but it didn't look like sandwiches. But the main goal of most amateurs was to win a contract with Kramer and come into really big money.

Just a sample here. Let me know if you need me to dig up more...

http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2011/01/rod-laver-and-champions-of-tennis.html

by hawkeye Sun 18 Dec 2011, 4:42 pm

laverfan

That last link was a great read. So much so that I've completely forgotten what I was arguing about...

Who is this Kavanagh though? He's fed up with the sportsmanship showed by todays players and has stopped watching! He needs re-educating. I would start by making him watch the 2009 AO final from start to finish including the trophy ceremony. We have two players today who represent all that is fair and good in sport. I'm sure he would change his view (as long as he's kept well away from any match involving Murray).

by lydian Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:02 pm

Tenez, we're talking at slightly cross purposes. I didnt say Nadal doesnt take TMS seriously...I said he takes slams/TMS and DC seriously....NOT 250s or 500s.
I also said his form at Canada/Cincy is NEVER as good as IW/Miami - why is that? Its not because he doesnt take Canada/Cincy seriously but because he's more jaded by then - those 50 matches tax him mentally because of the effort of focus needed. Winning clay events, especially alot of them, is brutal to both mind and body. I think its much more taxing to win say Monte Carlo or Rome than Cincy or Shanghai - clay is a tough surface to win on, and excel on with longevity, its a credit to Nadal he's been able to do what he has. But it cant last forever, and even in his youth and full-prime it left Nadal jaded for much of the post-Wimbledon season afterwards. He's a victim of his own success on clay really. He should have paced himself better through the clay season, much to his fans annoyance, but he never does. He'd do well to drop Barcelona and Madrid.

Nadal gets motivated by slams like no other event and whilst he may not look physically tired deep into Wimbledon, I do believe he's mentally tired by the end of it. Particularly this year. Just look at the way he folded against Djokovic? After all there is no way he can play 50 matches in 3-4 months and it have NO effect on him. Especially when he'd lost alot of close matches to Djokovic increasing the mental strain.

We then saw at Queens after FO this year just how gassed out he was...there is no way he can be jaded that week and then suddenly play like Popeye on spinach the following week without having to apply another herculean effort. But that effort costs him even more post-Wimbledon. And its not getting any easier as the surfaces continue to slow (I dont believe slowing surfaces are a better advantage to Nadal - after all Nadal learnt his craft on many surfaces that were probably faster than they are now) and the players have to enter loads of events mandatorily.

That lost against Dodig in Canada was a mental, not physical loss. The way he folded at the end of the match (and after being 3-1 up in the 2nd and serving for it) was shocking really. Although he's usually more tired post- than pre-Wimbledon Nadal would never have lost like that in the past - this highlighted not only the usual mental battle fatigue from his self-compressed April-June season, but a worrying underlying loss of confidence - I think from falling out of love with the game, i.e. mojo-loss.

Indeed I think his motivation is so brittle at the moment his performance can vary wildly from one event to the next. Only clay at the moment seems to restore any sense of confidence again. But no-one who's watched Nadal the past 5-6 years can say that was the same type of guy on tour last year - he looked like a different person on court, even if his tennis didnt appear that different at times. I think like an iceberg in warmer climates, there was alot of damage (loss of motivation, off court factors) under the surface we couldnt see going on. Hopefully he can regain his underlying motivation for the game as a whole in 2012, because the game still needs him, but we wont know fully until IW/Miami and the clay season comes around.

Unless you have different explanations...I think this modern brand (slower, more physically demanding) of tennis is pushing the guys to mental and physical exhaustion if they get deep across most events. I dont believe that even when Federer was winning his 80+ matches a season around 05-07 that it was as taxing as it is now. Its going to mean that players do seriously consider pulling out of more events. Even Djokovic this week has made further noises about the scheduling...something has to give otherwise they may lose the box-office players completely. Yes Nadal pushes himself relentlessly across that 50 match period but then the ranking system (Bo18) and TMS "contract" makes him play most of the events he enters...only Barcelona and Queens are the non TMS or slam events he enters between March and September (if you discount DC). They need to change the TMS format back to 6 mandatories and ranking system back to Bo14...like it was in the early-mid 90s, especially now the game is slower. Even if they sped the game up it should go back to 6 TMS and Bo18.

by noleisthebest Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:15 pm

"http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2011/01/rod-laver-and-champions-of-tennis.html"

just read the text. What a cheek to be talking down to today's players like that...some miserable, old Ausssie loser....

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:21 pm

hawkeye wrote:That last link was a great read. So much so that I've completely forgotten what I was arguing about...

The significance of AO and the motivation for a Grand Slam in the 1940-70s. Laugh

hawkeye wrote:Who is this Kavanagh though? He's fed up with the sportsmanship showed by todays players and has stopped watching! He needs re-educating. I would start by making him watch the 2009 AO final from start to finish including the trophy ceremony. We have two players today who represent all that is fair and good in sport. I'm sure he would change his view (as long as he's kept well away from any match involving Murray).

http://www.uqp.uq.edu.au/Author.aspx/1050/Kavanagh,%20Lawrie
http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html
http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2009/09/lawrie-kavanagh-blog-launch.html

Whether it is Federer crying at AO 2009, or Murray sniffling at AO 2010, both are good matches, despite your bias against Murray. Wink

From Bud Collins's Encyclopedia...

Unfortunately, the hypocrisy and confusion of the 'shamateur' period was not done away quickly and cleanly. Rather than accept the British proposal that all competitors would be referred to 'players', abolishing the distinction between amateur and professional, the ILTF bowed to heavy pressure from Eastern European countries and their voting allies and effected a compromise that called for four classifications:

Amateurs, who would not accept prize money.

Teaching professionals, who could compete with Amateurs only in Open events.

"Contract Professionals" who made their living playing Tennis but did not accept the authority of their national associations affiliated to the ILTF, signing independent contracts instead with independent promoters.

"Registered Players", who could accept prize money in open tournaments but still obeyed their national associations and retained eligibility for amateur events, including the Davis, Federation and Wightman Cups.

Second Edition, page 144.

by lydian Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:22 pm

Maybe, but he's probably right that Laver would have won SW19 nine years straight if not for the pro/am split 63-68. This is why NO player can ever be called the best of all time because we'll never know what Laver was fully capable of slam-wise on a level field.

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:32 pm

noleisthebest wrote:"http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2011/01/rod-laver-and-champions-of-tennis.html"

just read the text. What a cheek to be talking down to today's players like that...some miserable, old Ausssie loser....

Pretty sure in your 70+ s you will think about 2008-2013.

by noleisthebest Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:44 pm

laverfan wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:"http://kavanaghsqueensland.blogspot.com/2011/01/rod-laver-and-champions-of-tennis.html"

just read the text. What a cheek to be talking down to today's players like that...some miserable, old Ausssie loser....

Pretty sure in your 70+ s you will think about 2008-2013.

I hope I'll still be playing gingerly in my 70s, and have humility to acknowledge talent and effort younger generation have.
I don't listen to most "new" music or watch almost any "new" films, but am always ready to be nicely surprised.

by Tenez Sun 18 Dec 2011, 5:54 pm

Unless you have different explanations...

Nope, I don't have explanations for those form variations. It's still a big mystery for me and many others I am sure.

But if you have managed to convince yourself, Lydian fine. You certainly go a long way to!

It's like this weight loss in 2009 which was explained and accepted by his fans as a way to take the stress out of his knees. Sounded a good and believable story at the time...just to see him getting bigger than ever a few months later. We never found out what this weight loss was all about.

by 10IS Sun 18 Dec 2011, 6:05 pm

Tenez's view of Nadal reminds me of how Sean Hannity (FOX news) views Obama. Totally biased and seeing flaws in everything he does. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

by **laverfan** Sun 18 Dec 2011, 6:21 pm

10IS wrote:Tenez's view of Nadal reminds me of how Sean Hannity (FOX news) views Obama. Totally biased and seeing flaws in everything he does. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

I would go further and say the whole FOX News team, not just Hannity. We should add Limbaugh to the mix. Laugh

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