How do you Judge your teams Performance?

AS we head into 2012 with 4 major sides 2 in each hemisphere,with New Coaching setups,celebrating 606 v2 `s first year.
What is your measure of success and failure?this applies at Club,Provincial,and Test Level.Many here I know only holding a
RWC will do,cold comfort for most International sides .Winning a league,A Heineken Cup,a 4N`s,6Ns,a Grand Slam or a Super15.
My self the criteria[as is well known] is to be IRB rated Number One,and head to Head victories over all comers of 75%.I have`nt
Changed because the All Blacks won there second RWC[rather luckily it seems from comments].At least there was one question
answered,can the All Blacks win a RWC without Dan Carter and Ritchie McCaw.Yes ,and irony the reviled Stephen Donald 4th choice
did the deed.
Hopefully once the cesspit,which is the self serving RFU is sorted,England will be a force again in the World,best wishes to the new Coaching set up.

As an England Fan:

Im not looking for wide expansive flamboyant rugby.....I want to see us rebuild the powerhouse pack of old that appears to have become a fragile mess....
Get the break down sorted...dominate up front then let our backs finish off with tries....

Im looking for efficiency more than style and flamboyance....

As a falcon fan...

Well, i guess Gopperth to actually pass the ball now and again would be a start....

For Wales we now have to kick on, enough of galant losses etc. We have to win these tight games against the big sides.

I would say 3 home wins should be seen as a minimum and if we can get off to good start in Dublin then who knows.

Despite Huw Bennett proving everyone wrong and having a good WC our lineout can still be a shambles.

I hope now Gatland will stop trying to shoehorn Hook into the side and pick players who are doing the job in their best positions.

I don't think there are many slots up for grabs in the Welsh side at the moment:

Front Row - picks itself
2nd row - ok few injuries there so up for grabs
Back row - picks itself

No9 - Depends on Phillips availability
N10 - Picks itself

Centres - Roberts a def other slot still some debate

Back 3 - Williams slot up for grabs

A shut-out against Ireland in a 3 match series is a huge ask. But that´s what we have to aim for. Getting the first 4N trophy and retaining the Bledisloe Cup. Retaining the Hillary Cup in England on the tour.

The ABs´ performances are judged not only by whether they win but the manner in which they win. They are the impossibly high standards we set the team and that is what they must try to achieve.

For Ireland :

Minimum 4/5 wins in the 6N. 3 from 5 would be acceptable(ish) if we get a few new players capped and play well but we need more consistancy, in terms of performance and results, than last season. A GS would be ideal but lets see how it goes.

In the summer tour a win over the AB's would present a huge step forward and we need to be competitive in all 3 tests. A series win would be awesome but there's no point contimplating that until we show we can win an individual test match against the ABs.

Generally we need to play better and cut out the poor descisions and unforced errors that dogged us last year.

Rehabilitate BOD! Get a new backs coach!

An Irish team to win the HEC and Rabo again!

For Ulster:

Sign Jerome Kaino and keep Ruan Pienaar ...

Beat Leiscester! and qualify for the HEC QF....failing that a good run in, and possibly winning, the Amlin..

Top 5 Rabo finish, ideally top 4 but we've a lot of ground to make up.

Play better rugby with the ball in hand and continue bringing through our younger home grown players.

Beat Leinster and Munster at least once in the interpros!

Merry Xmas!

I have very realistic expectations for 2012.

We first need to sort the coach issue though,

My not list.

Jake White
Pieter de Villiers
Allistair Coetzee
Frans Ludeke
Heyneke Meyer

My yes list.
John Plumtree
John Mitchell
Rassie Erasmus
Gert Smal
Nick Mallet
Naka Drotske.

Team selection must include youngsters, even a few promising newcomers would be good.

2012 Incoming Tour by England

09 June – Springboks v England
16 June – Springboks v England
23 June – Springboks v England

2012 Four Nations (Two games per weekend)

18 August – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
25 August – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
01 September – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
08 September – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
15 September – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
22 September – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
29 September – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina
06 October – Springboks | All Blacks | Wallabies | Argentina

2012 Outgoing Tour of Europe

10 November – France v Springboks
17 November – Scotland v Springboks
24 November – England v Springboks.

I would want us to be unbeaten at home, that will be a huge task for the new coach as we have allowed australia and New Zealand some easy wins during the past few years under PDV. we must mae our home test matches impossible to win for even the best nations in the world.

we need to win at least 50% of our away matches, so in total 9/12 wiins in a year where we play only big five opponents would be a very satisfactory result.

Merry Christmas Biltong, Kia, Rodders and Alan... and all really at 606v2. Hope you all have an enjoyable one and rest up for another year of duelling, commentary and most of all good camaraderie on these boards.

I know theres a Xmas post somewhere but I havnt kept up with the play lately with not a lot going on match wise lately down under.

For next year Hansens set a clean slate approach already- 'previous results irrelevant' kind of talk. For me thats 'the kind of things you say' when nothings really happening yet.

My biggest interest in next year is how Hansen and co. drive on the standards set by the maestro both on and off the field- matching it a seemingly impossible task.

I've doubts about how Hansens manages people, particularly the media. He tends to be reactive rather than inward focussing, prone to being bait for criticism at times, but he is very protective of his team. As important though is how he projects himself to the team, fans, media and rugby fraternity as a whole- pdv and GH being a notable contrast.

That said, there's no hiding anymore any as Kia says, people will expect results and that will be the only measure next year. Some slack will be allowed with a new setup, vanishing players etc, but only to a point. One or two unexplainable losses can put an AB coach under severe pressure.

So other than hoping to see some more young talent- All Black rebuilds one of my favourite periods as a fan- the guidance and maturity of the new caretakers is my biggest interest in next year.

Winning.

I hate the Welsh mentality of "we can beat anyone on our day". We don't.
I hate the phrase "the Wesh way"
I hate the the lack of ambition in Welsh rugby.
I hate the "as long as we beat England" attitude.
I hate that we lost our last test match (stuff Shane's send off).

I want to be in the top four in world rugby.
I want the best teams to fear playing us - not expect to win.
I want rugby to be our national sport again.
I want to win every time we play

I don't care if the next ten times we play, we win 3 nil.

Winning. F**k the performance. I just want to win.

Winning to me because of luck leaves a hollow feeling, sure I will take the win, but the way we play is all important to me.

I get pi$$ed off when we play poor rugby whether we win or lose.

What I hate most abot our rugby is the sacrafice of test matches. If you don't plan on going in with the attitude of winning then don't go.

When you look at the last 50 test we played there are very few I rate satisfactory.

Biltong, seasons greetings.

SA have developed a habit of winning that I envy. I understand that the nature of the win is important, but for Wales winning needs to be the prerequisite, we can worry about the quality of the win later.

I'm fed up of performances that fall short. The loss to SA in the WC was a good example. We played very well, but lacked the final resolve to take victory. SA were the better team because they won.

I'd settle for that hollow feeling of winning ugly.

Good evening offload, same to you and the family.

As far as a habit of winning is concerned, I am not so sure.

We used to know that playing Wales, Ireland and Scotland are guaranteed wins.

Even when a referee had an influence in the match that favoured one of these teams we used to win, and most times it would be comfortable wins.

If you look at the last ten years we have lost to Scotland twice and Ireland 3 times, if you consider in over 100 years, Wales, Scotland and Ireland have only beaten us 10 times and half of those matches came in the last ten years then that is not acceptable in my book.

Take the match against Scotland last year, it was one of the worst perfomances I have ever seen by the sprinboks.

Biltong, you are hard on your team and I admire that. All I'm saying is that we are too easily pleased. We brush off losses with lame excuses. The last test match is a great example. After a reasonable world cup we play Australia at home - It's the worst Welsh performance for months and yet we get all sentimental about saying farewell to Shane.

We need to toughen up.

I want Ireland to play a brand of rugby it CAN play. The youngsters are proving they want it fast and intricate, proving week in week out that they don't lack the skills or the stamina to play it so; they want it for 80 minutes, they can last 80 minutes and they want to be allowed use instinct and chance rather than be too rigidly tied to patterns or always doggedly and predictably 'earning the right to go wide'.

When Ireland clicks we hear the line coming from external sources "that nobody could have lived with that Ireland side today" I want to hear that more often, more consistently. We have players with the ability to create havoc for the opposition and few of them need emotional-redflag big day events (England day for example) to get to that level. They are professional and able enough to be lethal through positive coaching alone.

I want NZ to win every game.
To dominate up front.
To score beautiful team tries.
To hurt and drive backwards in defense their enemy and
to hear the lamentations of their (enemy's) women

without cheating

nganboy wrote:I want NZ to win every game.
To dominate up front.
To score beautiful team tries.
To hurt and drive backwards in defense their enemy and
to hear the lamentations of their (enemy's) women

without cheating

Good one!

There's nothing more to add to that list except probably to burn their villages to the ground and take their children into slavery. Oops, there'll be those who pick up on that one and say the South Sea Islanders already experienced that

One reads that the All Blacks are a team in transition,too many 30 or over
true.BUT, only Sivivatu,and Thorn have gone,plus Muliana who has`nt been
superceded.
With Modern Sports Medicine ,35 is a realistic retirement age,Crockett will replace Afoa.Donnelly,Williams,Boric ,Thorn,the back row there is no shortage of cover.
Scrum half, there are several capable,Leonard has a quicker service than any incumbent,Mathewson isn`t too shabby either.
Carter,Slade,Cruden,before the next wave comes thru,Anscombe,Barret,Sopanga.
Mid field,Conrad Smith,Nonu,Kahui,Fruen,Crotty,Benson Stanley,Rene Ranger,plus for this year SBW.Rumour says he`s back to OZ next year and league.
Wings,Maitland,Gear,Guildford,Cory Jane,Full Backs Dagg and Ben Smith.
There a lot of good honest forwards who can do a job,around Hoerta,Berkhuis,McKenzie,Todd,Whitelock[all 3 of them Adam,George,Luke].
Re-building they maybe,BUT they`ve done it twice since 2003 and hardly missed a beat.87 out of 103 wins not bad for teams rebuilding.
DC may make it to 2019 just,RM will probably bow out at the 3 year mark,he knows when he has had enough.
Captain Tackles on one leg,was at least the equal of most he met in
the RWC on 2.
I expect there win/loss rate of 2 out of 15 a year will be maintained,hopefully 4Ns won and Bledisloe locked away again.

nganboy wrote:I want NZ to win every game.
To dominate up front.
To score beautiful team tries.
To hurt and drive backwards in defense their enemy and
to hear the lamentations of their (enemy's) women

without cheating

So...nothing new for next year then?... you just want more of the same then?

Win EVERY game Taylorman - raising the bar I reckon
and not enough lamenting heard too.

I'd like to see the ABs get back up to 94.0 on the rankings again,all these home games recently (World cup etc) means we have been missing out on the away points.

Laurie,
Maybe I don't know how points are allocated, but can a team (yours in this case) be penalised pointwise for winning at home? Now I don't pay much attention to these kinds of ratings, but that seems a silly system. A win is a win is a win, eh?

Apparently not at home and no points if you beat teams lower ranked than you, I think that's how it works?

The All Backs got double points for their wins against top teams.

Biltong - best wishes of the season.

My ambitions are modest. I'd settle for a Glasgow Robocop play-off spot, his Timness Lord Visser of Orange taking the summer tour by storm, Toonie getting the wellie in favour of someone like Ashton and Scotland not finding yet another new way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Am very interested to see how England progress and whether older for the English RFU actually means wiser.

Thanks George, same there bud. May you achieve all your goals and enjoy good health.

Biltong
Are you sure?
When the World cup kicked off on 9 September the ABs had 90.55 points.
Since then they have won 7 tests and are now on 91.43 points.
We got up to 94.0 about a year ago(Not sure exactly) but to get back up to that number the ABs would have to win about 15 tests in a row.

Hi Laurie, yes you did get double points for wins, problem is because it was a home world cup and your ranking was so much higher than most of the teams you played against, it didn't make a huge difference.

Well thats just great,next thing you know everyone else will have passed us and we will be down with Norway,

Nah, you have nothing to worry about, if I remember correctly any team you play with 10 or more ranking points lower, you get no points.

But you weren't the only ones, we also got almost no points even though we only got cheated by Bruce.

Actually it would be interesting to see how Paddy judged his teams performance.
Player of the year Jourbert..Well there wasnt much competition.
Best defender,Barnes..Went through a tor of New Zealand without getting murdered
Sportsmanship.B.Lawrence..Made it even for everyone else......(only joking).

Yeah, Bruce deserves that award.

By the way I can start talking about him without foaming at the mouth now, but would love to meet the mouse........ err, I mean the man.

Cannot abide numpties who just want Wales to win and stuff the performance.That sort of attitude engenders just checking the result in the next day's paper.
Sport should be a spectacle,an event where people should attend and be entertained.Anyone who just wants results should play the stock market and read the Financial Times for their results.
B*gger the history books,the stats,the World Rankings.I want to be entertained and be proud of the lads who are representing me.
Winning is fine but it is not the be all and end all.
Why is there not a 6 Nations Chess tournament?Because it would be pretty dull to watch.Once the entertainment has been squeezed from our game in pursuit of results our game of Rugby will be dead.
In answer to the original post,I judge my team's performance with my eyes and my understanding of what constitutes good Rugby.
Apologies for ranting a bit!

I like what you are saying, I also have to be proud of my team's performance, not just the win.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Cannot abide numpties who just want Wales to win and stuff the performance.That sort of attitude engenders just checking the result in the next day's paper.
Sport should be a spectacle,an event where people should attend and be entertained.Anyone who just wants results should play the stock market and read the Financial Times for their results.
B*gger the history books,the stats,the World Rankings.I want to be entertained and be proud of the lads who are representing me.
Winning is fine but it is not the be all and end all.
Why is there not a 6 Nations Chess tournament?Because it would be pretty dull to watch.Once the entertainment has been squeezed from our game in pursuit of results our game of Rugby will be dead.
In answer to the original post,I judge my team's performance with my eyes and my understanding of what constitutes good Rugby.
Apologies for ranting a bit!

Good job you're a Welsh fan then

I admire the sentiment but think it is anachronistic. Winning is everything in the professional game. Al the other stuff is awesome but the W must come first otherwise wtf is the point in competing....to look good?

Gatts wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Cannot abide numpties who just want Wales to win and stuff the performance.That sort of attitude engenders just checking the result in the next day's paper.
Sport should be a spectacle,an event where people should attend and be entertained.Anyone who just wants results should play the stock market and read the Financial Times for their results.
B*gger the history books,the stats,the World Rankings.I want to be entertained and be proud of the lads who are representing me.
Winning is fine but it is not the be all and end all.
Why is there not a 6 Nations Chess tournament?Because it would be pretty dull to watch.Once the entertainment has been squeezed from our game in pursuit of results our game of Rugby will be dead.
In answer to the original post,I judge my team's performance with my eyes and my understanding of what constitutes good Rugby.
Apologies for ranting a bit!

Good job you're a Welsh fan then

I admire the sentiment but think it is anachronistic. Winning is everything in the professional game. Al the other stuff is awesome but the W must come first otherwise wtf is the point in competing....to look good?

Rugby may have gone Pro,I havent!!!

Gatts wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Cannot abide numpties who just want Wales to win and stuff the performance.That sort of attitude engenders just checking the result in the next day's paper.
Sport should be a spectacle,an event where people should attend and be entertained.Anyone who just wants results should play the stock market and read the Financial Times for their results.
B*gger the history books,the stats,the World Rankings.I want to be entertained and be proud of the lads who are representing me.
Winning is fine but it is not the be all and end all.
Why is there not a 6 Nations Chess tournament?Because it would be pretty dull to watch.Once the entertainment has been squeezed from our game in pursuit of results our game of Rugby will be dead.
In answer to the original post,I judge my team's performance with my eyes and my understanding of what constitutes good Rugby.
Apologies for ranting a bit!

Good job you're a Welsh fan then

I admire the sentiment but think it is anachronistic. Winning is everything in the professional game. Al the other stuff is awesome but the W must come first otherwise wtf is the point in competing....to look good?

Rugby may have gone Pro,I havent!!!

biltongbek wrote:I like what you are saying, I also have to be proud of my team's performance, not just the win.

Seasons greetings,Biltong.As the one South African fan that I have encountered who is balanced and knowledgeable may I say how much I respect your posts.I feel that we share the same page of the same hymn sheet.Top bloke!

Heard you the first time!

But seriously it isn't just Professionalism its Competition! And the only reason for competing is to WIN WIN WIN!!

Taff you aren't one of those 'its not the winning its the taking part' advocates are you? Are you a teacher? Vote new Labour? Live in Eastbourne?

Gatts wrote:Heard you the first time!

But seriously it isn't just Professionalism its Competition! And the only reason for competing is to WIN WIN WIN!!

Taff you aren't one of those 'its not the winning its the taking part' advocates are you? Are you a teacher? Vote new Labour? Live in Eastbourne?

Yes,no,no,yes.Gatts,if I told you that the best game of Rugby that I ever played in we lost 3-0 to a team that were 25 points better than us.We had no ball but we tackled like demons and would not let them score a try.We as a team were on a high and when we got back people thought that we had won.
The W column does not tell that tale and it is for this reason that I dont embrace it as a true judge of a team's performance.
I've played in games in which we have won by 60+ but none gave me more pleasure than our 3-0 loss.
I do not wear sandals either!.

Oh dear oh dear

Losing like that would have left me spitting bullets.

You should be wearing sandals!

Gatts wrote:Oh dear oh dear

Losing like that would have left me spitting bullets.

You should be wearing sandals!

Not with my toes!

Gatts wrote:Heard you the first time!

But seriously it isn't just Professionalism its Competition! And the only reason for competing is to WIN WIN WIN!!

Taff you aren't one of those 'its not the winning its the taking part' advocates are you? Are you a teacher? Vote new Labour? Live in Eastbourne?

Gatts, I agree with you winning is important, that is where proud rugby traditions and records stem from, but I think where Taffin and I come from is the fact that we first want to see our teams play to their potential, a poor performance yet win does not leave me fully satisfied. It is like going to a high class restaurant and although the Lobster was edible you feel robbed because the standard was not what you expected.

Taffin
I just gotta ask,Did you lose by a drop kick or a penalty?

I think to lose 3.0 to a drop kick I'd slit my throat.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Taffin
I just gotta ask,Did you lose by a drop kick or a penalty?

I think to lose 3.0 to a drop kick I'd slit my throat.

I almost did in 1999 semi final vs Oz

biltongbek wrote:

Gatts wrote:Heard you the first time!

But seriously it isn't just Professionalism its Competition! And the only reason for competing is to WIN WIN WIN!!

Taff you aren't one of those 'its not the winning its the taking part' advocates are you? Are you a teacher? Vote new Labour? Live in Eastbourne?

Gatts, I agree with you winning is important, that is where proud rugby traditions and records stem from, but I think where Taffin and I come from is the fact that we first want to see our teams play to their potential, a poor performance yet win does not leave me fully satisfied. It is like going to a high class restaurant and although the Lobster was edible you feel robbed because the standard was not what you expected.

Precisely!If your team plays to their potential/abilities that is all you can hope for.If the result goes your way,goodo.
I saw the "Andy Haden" match against the AB's.I know who deserved to win.That's enough for me.
Romantic,purist,dreamer,old f*rt,call me what you will but the day we turn into England I will start supporting the Wales Bridge Team.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I like what you are saying, I also have to be proud of my team's performance, not just the win.

Seasons greetings,Biltong.As the one South African fan that I have encountered who is balanced and knowledgeable may I say how much I respect your posts.I feel that we share the same page of the same hymn sheet.Top bloke!

Thanks Taffin, I do sometimes lose my cool as well. specifically this last world cup.

But Biltong,imagine pissin blood for 80 minutes and the only thing to show for the effort is a drop goal,and that was scored by the opposition.

Yeah, must be heartbreaking, especially if it happens in the last minute.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Taffin
I just gotta ask,Did you lose by a drop kick or a penalty?

I think to lose 3.0 to a drop kick I'd slit my throat.

Penalty.Homer ref!

A penalty is'nt any where near as bad, especially if it was one of your team mates trying to do something that might have created points for your team,(not that i'd ever recommend cheating).

aucklandlaurie wrote: A penalty is'nt any where near as bad, especially if it was one of your team mates trying to do something that might have created points for your team,(not that i'd ever recommend cheating).

Aukland,to this day I know that everyone in my team did their best and as a member of that team you take the score that your efforts bring.You win some,you lose some.C'est la vie.
The day that we put the result ahead of the performance is the day that we lose our soul.Mine isnt up for grabs unlike other posters.