Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Can't open the link here but does that mean that Ulster can't have Afoa if Munster have Botha? ...I can't see how that is workable?

That is what I was thinking.. And no Afoa means..

I put my thread on ignore as at least you have put some effort in grey!

To be honest im not sure on this one at all.

So we cannot renew an NIQ players contract essentially if i read that right.

I think this will end in tears

roddersm wrote: Can't open the link here but does that mean that Ulster can't have Afoa if Munster have Botha? ...I can't see how that is workable?

That's my interpretation of it. Can't see it any other way. Ulster would have to register Afoa as a loosehead if Botha is registered as a tighthead, even if that's a white lie. But then what happens with VdM at Leinster...?

If someone can supply a cogent explanation of how I'm reading this the wrong way then I'll break with 606v2 tradition and instead of calling them an idiot I'll thank them for the correction

I can see the logic in this, in terms of trying to maximise the number of IQ's in each position. Leinster are pretty much ok I think but Munster and Ulster are really going to have to do a bit of juggling in the next season or so.

Surely this will create tension between the provinces and they will ahve to work together to agree on signings?

The biggest talking point for me is the clause that Connacht is excempt from these conditions.

Overall I can't say I'm instantly won over by these. I am especially not happy that NIQ can't reknew their contracts.

They were exempt any way, weren't they? They don't follow the 5+1 NIE rule as it is.

NIE is the new NIQ.

I forgot to mention point 3,

All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland

So if an NIE player gets injured, they can't be given 20 minutes off the bench once they're on the way back? They have to start the match? We can only have IE players on the bench for any and all matches?

That's so impractical you can tell it was invented by a committee.

Yea I know just I'd have thought they would have found a system all could work from.

Wow wow wow wow wow wow wow.

What’s this about Nacewa?

I’m reading it like this, all players currently under contract are ok. Any new contracts which start in the season after next are gone? I think?

Like greybeard I have read it a number of times and cant figure out what it means practically.

Not sure about it but it might force the provinces to bring on players quicker. Which wouldnt be a bad thing.

"For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad."

I don't like that at all. That really means the only foreign players we'll be able to attract are mercenaries, who are here only for the cash, rather than attracting players like Howlett who have integrated into the lifestyle and culture and stayed long term.

This is a big faux pas if you ask me. We really are throwing the baby out with the bath water here

And what happens when Ulster and Munster both want a TH or Ulster and Leinster both want a 2nd row? Who arbitrates that and how is it done?

This could get really messy and if we see a drop in success provincially will the drop in revenue that the provinces bring in be worth it?

It wouldn't be DOD, if it works. But I have my doubts.

Lads like McSharry who are doing well at Connacht will be held onto by the other provinces and get maybe one or two games a year. Don't see how that's improving Irish rugby compared to McSharry lining out against Toulouse.

Ok, only the once, but it's interesting the day Alan Quinlan was writing about how game time is needed and a loan system would be a good idea that the IRFU are announcing a policy that totally shuts the door on that idea.

Some player - Afoa for example have a contract for the 2013/14 season.
There is no way we can get out of that.

So guys what NIQ players do Munster and Leinster have contractred for next year and beyond.

Ulster - Afoa up to and including 2013/14
Muller up to and including 2012/13

Our other 3 NIQ players currently have contracts that expire at the end of this year

Quick sign Pienaer and Kaino as 8 and 9
Actually 2 positions we may be ok with.
Alternatively does anyone havea foreign 10 - that would be handy

Geoff get Kaino signed quick!

red_stag, I've figured out why Connacht aren't involved, they're our offshore account.

Afoa has to leave Ulster, he moves to Connacht for a year, then back to Ulster with a 10 year contract.

Howlett has to leave Munster, he moves to Connacht. Then back.. etc etc.

It's player laundering.

I wonder if denying NIE players the right to have a new contract is even allowed under employment law?

Greybeard,

I suspect the "injury replacement" thing is talking about when you bring someone in on a short term contract to cover a seriously injured NIQ player.

I think they mean that in future Ulster would have to find an IQ FB to cover for Payne's injury instead of bringing in Terblanche.

Rodders/Stag

I agree totally regarding your points about not renewing contracts. The IRFU better be prepared for a drop in revenue if performances falter as a result of this.

To be honest do the IRFU not already have some say in our NIQ signings. If there was an issue with a particular province and a particular position they could surely just put a bit of pressure on.




and stick Kaino on a 6 year contract!

MrsP wrote:Greybeard,
I suspect the "injury replacement" thing is talking about when you bring someone in on a short term contract to cover a seriously injured NIQ player.

Ah, good point. Thank you/

(See, I was telling the truth)

Does point 2 state that where there is more than 1 NIE in a position across the 3 provinces, all the NIE's in that position can't be renewed? So out of the tighthead props in Nathan White, Afoa, Botha as their contracts come to an end they won't be renewed until we are left with 1 NIE tighthead prop?

So which province gets the rub of the green - this will be a disaster.

I also don't read it as Dougie can't be renewed, but that if he is, no other NIE can have his jersey number.


Hmmmm, there could be fun with this! Afoa isn't a tighthead, he's a flyhalf! Problem solved. Now what other positions need fixing? just line up the NIE players in a row, give them 1 through 15 in alphabetical order and always give them that jersey to start a game?

If Muller goes I go!

greybeard wrote:I forgot to mention point 3,

All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland

So if an NIE player gets injured, they can't be given 20 minutes off the bench once they're on the way back? They have to start the match? We can only have IE players on the bench for any and all matches?

That's so impractical you can tell it was invented by a committee.

No it means the short term replacements like Stefan Terblanche for Payne for Ulster, from now on short term replacement must be IQ.

can't believe this means that since Leinster have Sexton and a NIE player as back up Ulster can't sign a number 10!!!!

and out of Botha and Afoa, it sounds like whoevers contract is up first, is the one that leaves.

Seriously lads, what does this mean for Nacewa?

So Leinster can afford to lose White, VDM and Berquist assuming by the end of their contract that Hagan, McGrath and Madigan are up to speed. Strauss and Sykes would be IQ by then, leaving just Isa.

Can we keep him huh? We’ll look after him real good I swear, take him for walks and brush his coat every day mister! Can we keep him?

greybeard wrote:

MrsP wrote:Greybeard,
I suspect the "injury replacement" thing is talking about when you bring someone in on a short term contract to cover a seriously injured NIQ player.

Ah, good point. Thank you/

(See, I was telling the truth)

They might also be using this as a special Clint Newland clause. If your ravaged by injury at a position, you can't grab a useless oaf from the SH who can't even run onto a field without being feiked. You bite the bullet and use your academy players for the position in the big boy league.

BTW this strikes me as HIGHLY illegal and IMO we are looking down the barrell of a Bosman ruling emerging.

Mickado wrote:Seriously lads, what does this mean for Nacewa?

It means when his contract is up he's on the 1st flight back to Fiji....er I mean NZ!

Out of curiosity, who are the NIE in the 3 provinces?

Afoa
Muller
Wannenburg
Pienaar
Payne

Strauss (but not for long)
Sykes
VDM
Berquist
Nacewa

Dougie
Botha
Mafi
Williams
Borlase?

Mickado wrote:Seriously lads, what does this mean for Nacewa?

So Leinster can afford to lose White, VDM and Berquist assuming by the end of their contract that Hagan, McGrath and Madigan are up to speed. Strauss and Sykes would be IQ by then, leaving just Isa.

Can we keep him huh? We’ll look after him real good I swear, take him for walks and brush his coat every day mister! Can we keep him?

Keep him, but offer him a 20 year contract before the 2013 season. Because once those 20 years are up, he's outta there!

Wow, can't ever see England doing this.

Good idea though

Chambers and Borlase are under the Project players I think. Borlase certainly is ,I think Chambers would be too. Let's hope Borlase fecks off home though.

Munster better find some new wingers

Have the provinces actually agreed to this then ?

Munkian, Dougie is our only foreign winger. Zebo is Irish.

munkian wrote:Munster better find some new wingers

Have the provinces actually agreed to this then ?

It's the IRFU, it is the provinces.

munkian wrote:Munster better find some new wingers

Have the provinces actually agreed to this then ?

The provinces don't need to agree.

Also Munster only have 1 foreign winger who is leaving at end of season (Howlett). They have about 6 Irish wingers though.

He is ? Good stuff. Howlett was kind of vital to you scoring alot of your tries though no ?

The way I read it is;

if Nacewa is classed as a full back it's between him and Payne, whoevers contact is up first doesn't get renewed

if wing munster can't renew Dougie's contract

if 10 then Berquist has to go to keep him when contracts are up

Thought Chambers was only on a 3 month contract? Anyway as it stands you’re only allowed 1 official project player at a time. so if you have 2 then the second one will be classed as NIQ until the first one is IQ. Yep, dead simple.

Maybe the provinces should ask for a 'franchise player' like in the NFL. Designate one NIE player who is protected from the policy, that way they can renew contracts with one of them at least.

That way you get to reward one player for his iconic/legendary status, which is what Nacewa and Howlett have.

munkian wrote:He is ? Good stuff. Howlett was kind of vital to you scoring alot of your tries though no ?

Yea he was but we have Keith Earls, Simon Zebo, Johne Murphy, Denis Hurley and Danny Barnes to cover wing. Youngster Luke O'Dea did very well in Rabo earlier this year. I think we'll be ok on the wings.

The big worry must be in the props where although the young Stephen Archer is impressing, we have no other options apart from injury plagued Darragh Hurley.

Kingshu Payne is a project so wouldn't be classed as NIE I wouldn't have thought.

He is on a short term Mick you're right. Apologies. He would be IQ if he stayed for 3 year. Borlase is a waste of a foreign player though. Chambers is not a project player, I made an error

You cant have two project players Thomond surely.

Ulster currently have

Afoa
Muller
Wannenburg
Pienaar
Danielli
Payne (project) terblanche (injury cover)

Out of those Wannenburg and Danielli will most likely be let go with Kaino (in a perfect world coming in)

Leinster

White (i know next to nothing about this guy)
Strauss (project)
Sykes
Nacewa
Berquist
VDM

Munster

Du Preez
Botha
Borlase (project)
Howlett
Mafi
Chambers

Payne is a Project player.

He must be on a 3 year deal, no?

thats right MrsP. He has another 2 years after this one.

I think Ulster could get away with not having any NIQs in the backline except at 9. Its up front we would ideally have a backrow, a 2nd row and potentially a front row although this wouldnt be quite as big a deal.

roddersm wrote:Kingshu Payne is a project so wouldn't be classed as NIE I wouldn't have thought.

He's NIE until he qualifies on residency. Once his contract is up he will be allowed to have a new one, because he'll become IE at the end of the contract. But for as long as he's NIE Munster and Leinster will not be allowed to sign a NIE full back.

Seems a bunch of strange new conditions.

And yes, nicely convoluted in lawyer-backspeak, get-out-of-jail-if-we-change-our-mind-with-endless-interpretation-debates-about-initial-wording.

Nice lingo from the rule givers. Now where's the asprin?

Hmmm... not sure about this... It also says that the goal of this is to make sure that there are two IQ players per position in the squads of all thye Provinces for the Pro12 and HC. Good idea in princable but for example Munster aren't going to magic an international standard 12 out of no where in the next few years (Although hopefully we do) So when Mafi is passed his sell-by date we will have someone to take over. (Mafi is 29) Now that is grand because Leinster and Ulster have more the one 12 each capable of playing for Ireland and don't have NIQ 12s but when it comes down to props its a different story altogether.

Munster at the moment have 3 NIE/NIQ props, Borlase, du Preez and Botha. Leinster have van der Merwe and White and Ulster have Afoa

Thats 6 altogether for those of ous whose maths is not great to fit into 2 places. By 2013 Borlase I believe will be IQ if he stays and maybe White is I'm not sure? Now at the present time Munster could not do without Botha and to a lesser extent du Preez, Afoa is importent to Ulster and the rest are decent squad players to varying degrees. Now no one is going to let Munster have 2 NIQ props so one will have to go.

A similar situation is at Full Back where Ulster have 2 fullbacks who are NIQ and one project player and Leinster have Nacewa. More changes needed there. Connacht too will have to get rid of all the NIQ players at some stage too. I think squads may well be spread to thin as NIQ are often used in the Pro12 and on the bench in bigger matchs. The reason we do so well in the Pro12 is down to in part at least to the fantastic depth in our squads.

That said there is a while to go until the changes are put in place. As well on Howlet, most likely he will be retired by then but this does fly in the place of player loyalty which is so strong on our teams.

Surley the Provinces will have some sort of say it this, I see it being watered down slightly.

The system we have works well as it is, did it really need sure a radical overhaul?

point two in future would mean that when we lost Botha we couldn't have got Afoa, that would have really weakened us.

Also it won't help Connacht as fringe players won't be sent to Connacht but rather retained in case there are injuries.

The one NIE per position isn't thought out well, places like wing th e3 provinces could have 2 NIE players between them and still bring through and develop plenty of IQ winger, hooker and tighthead fair enough 1 NIE between them.