The BIG DEBATE: 2006vs2011

First topic message reminder :

The DEBATE:

In which year did Fed face higher competition? As we are not debating about Federer's level in the respective years- but the competition he faced- I will now compare the players he has faced in each round of a slam- from Round 1 to the final. Even if he lost earlier than the final I would see his route if he had won- we are not judging him but WHO he faced/would have faced.

Aus Open: I will always state the 2006 player first then 2011- eg AO final: Baghdatis vs Djokovic
R1- Istomin vs Lacko- Lacko was ranked in the top 100 and ran Rafael Nadal very close in Doha a few weeks
before AO. Istomin meanwhile was not on great form- although he did have potential as we saw in his 2010 Queens display. Very close. DRAW
R2- Mayer vs Simon- the talented frenchman Giles Simon has a good baseline game and will look to try and break into the Top 10 next year. Mayer has improved a lot since 2006 when he was outside the Top 50. 2011
R3- Myrini vs Malisse- both were top 50 players at the time. Malisse came of a great performance in Chennai while Myrini was in indifferent form. 2011
R4- Haas vs Robredo- Haas was top 50 and definitely a tougher prospect. 2006
QF- Davydenko vs Wawrinka- The Swiss number 2 has no real chance of troubling Fed. Davydenko provided slightly more of a challenge. 2006
SF- Keifer vs Djokovic- 2011
F- Baghdatis vs Murray- (if he had reached 2011 final)- 2011
2011 4-2 2006

French Open:
R1- Hartfield vs Lopez- hartfield was outside the top 150 while Lopez ran fed close a few weeks before they played. 2011
R2- Falla vs Texeira- while Falla is potentially a dangerous player- Texeira was outside the top 150. Easy call. 2006
R3- Massu vs Tipsarevic- both were in Top 50 but Tipsarevic has a more dangerous game- he is now in the
Top 10. 2011
R4- Berdych vs Wawrinka- as shown in 2010 Wimby Berdych had the game to cause trouble to Fed, unlike the Swiss number 2. 2006.
QF- Ancic vs Monfils- monfils was top 10 at that time, unlike Ancic, and had a french crowd behind him. Its very tight though. DRAW
SF- Nalbandian vs Djokovic- No question, Djokovic was pre-tournament favourite- 2011
F- Nadal vs Nadal- Nadal has improved since 2006- 2011
2011 4-2 2006

Wimbledon:
R1- Gasquet vs Kukushin- Gasquet easily- 2006
R2-Henman vs mannarino- henman was former semi-finalist- 2006
R3- Mahut vs Nalbandian- Nalbandian has the shots to cause Fed trouble- 2011
R4- Berdych vs Youzhny- Berdych- who beat him in 2010- 2006
QF- Ancic vs Tsonga- Tsonga came in on good form with strong showing at Queens but Ancic was good on grass- tight call- 2011
SF- Bjorkman vs Djokovic- if he had got to the semi (remember what fed did is irrespective- we are judging it purely on his competition)- 2011
F- Nadal vs Nadal- Nadal improved by 2011 on grass- 2011
2011 4-3 2006

US Open:
R1- Wang vs Giraldo- Giraldo was top 60 player- unlike Wang- 2011
R2- Henman vs Sela- former number 4 was potentially dangerous- 2006
R3- Spadea vs Cillic- Cillic is a very dangerous player on his day- a tougher fixture- 2011
R4- Gicquel vs Monaco- Monaco ranked higher and more consistent- 2011
QF- Blake vs Tsonga- both very good attacking players- DRAW
SF- Davydenko vs Djokovic- no doubt- 2011
F- Roddick vs Nadal- Roddick had a lethal serve on a fast surface but Nadal is a better baseline player- DRAW
2011 4-1 2006

ALTOGETHER:
2011 16-8 2006
This means that 2011 was tougher/ more competition for Federer compared to 2006.

Remember! Fed's level of play and how the match turned out is irrelevant- its just his competition we are judging.
Fed might have improved/got worse but that is irrelevant. This is why I have continued his draw even when he exited!


Thankyou for reading
I hope you enjoyed the research

An easy multiple choice question I have for you guys:
Since 2006 Nadal, Murray and Djokovic are now a bigger threat- across all surfaces. Do you think Federer's competition in the latter stages of a Grand Slam (irrelevant of form) has got:
a)harder
b)easier
c)stayed the same

Pretty easy question- don't be a politician by answering vaguely at first and then expanding on some sidetrack- it's an easy multiple choice.
To help you with the question you can use my research above with the comparisons and also consider this: If Fed played the same level as he did this year in 2006; would he still have won 3 slams? I believe so, and therefore my question above is answered.

Simple_Analyst wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:Timeplease
I have no idea what you're saying.

He seems to be ranting on something the whole day, can't really understand what he has been saying. Time Please, you are not Welsh by any chance are you? I struggle to understand the Welsh when they communicate.

mmm I don't think anyone else has any trouble understanding little ol' moi. It might be because the rest of the forum are a little more adept at listening to others? just a thought.

lol - no I am not Welsh, nor male, though two of my best friends are and strangely I don't find them difficult to understand. (though you were very nearly amusing in a good way here Simple - very nearly!) Understanding folk would appear to be a recurring problem for both of you - that and having extraordinary well padded hides.

Not really sure what the solution is......but I think I might just skip your conclusion sadly amritia, much as I believe it could be scintillating because I have promised myself that I will be clipping my toenails and exfoliating the dog over the next few days. Laters!

I don't know what you're talking about dj. if you see my 2006vs2011 match by match analysis I haven't been biased at all. Infact if not anything I've tended to give 2006 the benefit of the doubt (eg i put nadal equal with roddick even though feds record against A-rod is better).

if i have been bias at all, that is now irrelevant, as i will write this verdict in the point of view of a neutral rather than a nadal fan.

time please wrote:

mmm I don't think anyone else has any trouble understanding little ol' moi. It might be because the rest of the forum are a little more adept at listening to others? just a thought.

lol - no I am not Welsh, nor male, though two of my best friends are and strangely I don't find them difficult to understand. (though you were very nearly amusing in a good way here Simple - very nearly!) Understanding folk would appear to be a recurring problem for both of you - that and having extraordinary well padded hides.

Not really sure what the solution is......but I think I might just skip your conclusion sadly amritia, much as I believe it could be scintillating because I have promised myself that I will be clipping my toenails and exfoliating the dog over the next few days. Laters!

Time please

I was looking forward to you reading my neutral verdict.

Duty calls amritia - duty calls. Life, sadly, cannot always be a barrel of laughs

time please wrote:

Not really sure what the solution is......but I think I might just skip your conclusion sadly amritia, much as I believe it could be scintillating because I have promised myself that I will be clipping my toenails and exfoliating the dog over the next few days. Laters!

I think if you have little time to spare, why don't you give a little exfoliation to SA and Amritia also, I am sure they will find it beneficial......

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:


I think if you have little time to spare, why don't you give a little exfoliation to SA and Amritia also, I am sure they will find it beneficial......

You're a bit like Tenez except not as witty.

amritia3ee wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:


I think if you have little time to spare, why don't you give a little exfoliation to SA and Amritia also, I am sure they will find it beneficial......

You're a bit like Tenez except not as witty.

Is it true that you fist pump when Nadal is calling an MTO?

(......that s the very best I can get )

lol...this thread makes for very amusing reading. Loving that TP is announced as a "great new addition to the Fed fan base" despite 100s more posts than either S_A or amritia33!

lydian wrote:lol...this thread makes for very amusing reading. Loving that TP is announced as a "great new addition to the Fed fan base" despite 100s more posts than either S_A or amritia33!

Yh SA said that- did tp become a Fed fan today

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:


I think if you have little time to spare, why don't you give a little exfoliation to SA and Amritia also, I am sure they will find it beneficial......

You're a bit like Tenez except not as witty.

Is it true that you fist pump when Nadal is calling an MTO?

(......that s the very best I can get )

Stop stalking me.

Deal done

If this can help, I have never read much more of few headlines of the hundreds of posts you disseminated around the forum.

Difficult to totally ignore you, though

Tenez wrote:You shoudl look at Nadal playing on HC outdoors today v GremelMayer.

What a terrible tennis. Let's see who wins this tournament but if Nadal wins v Federer there, I'll shut up for ever. It's the easiest draw Nadal could dream off, yet he is making such a mess of it. Unfortunately for Fed he has a tough semi v Tsonga and that might affect his form in the final.

I hope you keep your word if that does happen.

amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:You shoudl look at Nadal playing on HC outdoors today v GremelMayer.

What a terrible tennis. Let's see who wins this tournament but if Nadal wins v Federer there, I'll shut up for ever. It's the easiest draw Nadal could dream off, yet he is making such a mess of it. Unfortunately for Fed he has a tough semi v Tsonga and that might affect his form in the final.

I hope you keep your word if that does happen.

Are we talking Doha or Flushing Meadows?

Doha.

That is a brave bet Tenez. Given the 'lack' of prestiege at Doha, risky!!

Indeed LK, I remember promises like this being made on 606v1 by AIR (I think). It is risky because Nadal's form can vary wildly in the same event, I agree he isnt playing amazing tennis at the moment but then something can click inside him and "off" he goes!

I also can't see Federer losing to Nadal at the moment, but my bet is that Tenez will be cheering for Youzhny today

lydian wrote:Indeed LK, I remember promises like this being made on 606v1 by AIR (I think). It is risky because Nadal's form can vary wildly in the same event, I agree he isnt playing amazing tennis at the moment but then something can click inside him and "off" he goes!

He played really well against Gremelmayer in R2, will look to continue his form today. Federer also looking very comfortable in Rounds 1+2.

lydian wrote:Indeed LK, I remember promises like this being made on 606v1 by AIR (I think).

Yes but Tenez is a man of his word. His main asset is that he sticks up for what he believes in- if he goes back on his word and continues posting on v2 if rafa beats fed in doha final it will be very embarrassing IMHO. Probs won't happen though, but we'll have to wait and see.

Yep. And Mikhail is another player who can suddenly run into amazing form if those flashy groundies kick in - he can hit right through people (or even himself...lol). We know Nadal lost heavily to him in Chennai at the start of the year 2-3 years back. Be interesting to see how he handles him early this year.

I didnt mean that amritia3ee - I think AIR actually did disappear after his fabled losing bet with Duggietoo - which was a shame as I found AIR an amusing poster. His references of the Swiss Bungler, etc, always made posters smile - even bogbrush and TheOpinion, etc, I dare say!

I have to admit if I made a bet like that and Nadal v Federer was the final, I would be squirming in my seat. I applaud Tenez though for sticking his neck out.

lydian wrote:I didnt mean that amritia3ee - I think AIR actually did disappear after his fabled losing bet with Duggietoo - which was a shame as I found AIR an amusing poster. His references of the Swiss Bungler, etc, always made posters smile - even bogbrush and TheOpinion, etc, I dare say!

Absolutely. As I touched on in the previous post, there was a value to those guys utterly lacking in this version.

amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:You shoudl look at Nadal playing on HC outdoors today v GremelMayer.

What a terrible tennis. Let's see who wins this tournament but if Nadal wins v Federer there, I'll shut up for ever. It's the easiest draw Nadal could dream off, yet he is making such a mess of it. Unfortunately for Fed he has a tough semi v Tsonga and that might affect his form in the final.

I hope you keep your word if that does happen.

I admit I don't want to see him go or any poster for that matter. I am sure the fiercist critic of Tenez's views would agree in time he grows on you when he isn't associated with Nadal and comments on other aspects of the game you find yourself in some circumstances learning or either sharing views. Like today with percentage play and able to recall 'Crafty' Mac which I admit was new to me and even made me smile and view Mac as even more 'cerebral' fox.

bogbrush wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:You shoudl look at Nadal playing on HC outdoors today v GremelMayer.

What a terrible tennis. Let's see who wins this tournament but if Nadal wins v Federer there, I'll shut up for ever. It's the easiest draw Nadal could dream off, yet he is making such a mess of it. Unfortunately for Fed he has a tough semi v Tsonga and that might affect his form in the final.

I hope you keep your word if that does happen.

You hope one of the most thought-provoking posters on the fourm leaves?

No, i hope he keeps to his word. If Nadal doesn't beat Fed in Doha final then he should definitely stay.

amritia3ee wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:You shoudl look at Nadal playing on HC outdoors today v GremelMayer.

What a terrible tennis. Let's see who wins this tournament but if Nadal wins v Federer there, I'll shut up for ever. It's the easiest draw Nadal could dream off, yet he is making such a mess of it. Unfortunately for Fed he has a tough semi v Tsonga and that might affect his form in the final.

I hope you keep your word if that does happen.

You hope one of the most thought-provoking posters on the fourm leaves?

No, i hope he keeps to his word. If Nadal doesn't beat Fed in Doha final then he should definitely stay.

And if he does beat Federer you hope he leaves.

Thanks for confirming.

Pity for everyone else, who'll just be left with your personal threads where one dare not post for being in receipt of a personal conversation that can only be terminated unilaterally.

Can we stick the topic in hand pls guys before it gets nasty?

bogbrush wrote:

And if he does beat Federer you hope he leaves.

Thanks for confirming.

Bogbrush, you are still angry with me

Thanks Gents. Though I am a man of word and try to stick to what I say in real life, my cyber version, Tenez, doesn't have to stick to any moral rules and is only there to discuss tennis. So regardless of the outcome amri might be sorry to still see me around.

But don't you worry, Nadal should be stopped in due time.

amritia3ee wrote:

lydian wrote:Indeed LK, I remember promises like this being made on 606v1 by AIR (I think).

Yes but Tenez is a man of his word. His main asset is that he sticks up for what he believes in- if he goes back on his word and continues posting on v2 if rafa beats fed in doha final it will be very embarrassing IMHO. Probs won't happen though, but we'll have to wait and see.

Are you quite sure that the acronym 'IMHO' isn't a bit of an oxymoron amritia?

Of course Tenez must stay - it's a brave bet T, very courageous play there. It won't be embarrassing at all if it goes pear shaped amritia - punters' bets go wrong every day. Of course we all have the advantage of you to keep on reminding us, which will no doubt be of no solace at all if Tenez goes into temporary exile.

Tenez - don't you dare leave - I'm off to read your opinion of Crafty Mac as recommended by Legend. It's tough to tear myself away from amritia's musings, but you know - someone has to!

amritia3ee wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

And if he does beat Federer you hope he leaves.

Thanks for confirming.

Bogbrush, you are still angry with me

Why do you keep saying that you think people are angry at you? That comes across as you feeling a bit needy for attention.

Bored is a better description.

time please wrote:Tenez - don't you dare leave - I'm off to read your opinion of Crafty Mac as recommended by Legend. It's tough to tear myself away from amritia's musings, but you know - someone has to!

Don't you worry! Nadal won't make it!

Federer can bring the whole population of Basel, hand them a racquet to partner him on court sunday against Nadal and will still lose. Or the people of Basel can start building a roof over the Khalifa tennis court. They might be done by Sunday.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Federer can bring the whole population of Basel, hand them a racquet to partner him on court sunday against Nadal and will still lose. Or the people of Basel can start building a roof over the Khalifa tennis court. They might be done by Sunday.

True. So would anyone lose if they filled up the court with townsfolk and handed them racquets.

Not a particularly well thought through illustration.

But interesting that you see indoors being tantamount to a certain Federer win. I thought his 100% record over Nadal indoors was put down to "tiredness".

Good point made which concludes, what ever he does come Sunday, he will still lose.

bogbrush wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote: Or the people of Basel can start building a roof over the Khalifa tennis court. They might be done by Sunday.

But interesting that you see indoors being tantamount to a certain Federer win. I thought his 100% record over Nadal indoors was put down to "tiredness".

Hmm, quite a poor error that S_A, quite lucky that bogbrush pointed out your elementary mistake to save you IMHO.

I do hope these aren't the first signs that you are turning into a biased Fed worshipper.

Hmm interesting to see T and A square off for the upcoming Final for which finalist are not even decided, I hope for the goodness sake both lose before the finals .

But saying all the square off is good, and I do hope Fedal match take place and Federer to win [just for the streak to continue]. Federer's encounter with Tsonga is tough and unless Fed plays his A-game he wont come through this one.

"I think when you beat him, you know you can do it and that's it," Tsonga said. "So of course when you are going on the court the next time, you are a bit more confident. But it's difficult anyway to play against Federer, because when he plays his best level, it's better than every player."

Will Tsonga soon become a "Fed Worshipper" too?

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/01/1/Doha-Thursday-Tsonga-Overpowers-Ramos-Federer-Plays-Seppi.aspx

laverfan wrote:"I think when you beat him, you know you can do it and that's it," Tsonga said. "So of course when you are going on the court the next time, you are a bit more confident. But it's difficult anyway to play against Federer, because when he plays his best level, it's better than every player."

Will Tsonga soon become a "Fed Worshipper" too?

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/01/1/Doha-Thursday-Tsonga-Overpowers-Ramos-Federer-Plays-Seppi.aspx

Laverfan, is Tsonga not allowed to have an opinion? The last time Murray said this is possibly the strongest era of tennis ever, the likes of you were creaming and comically berating Murray for his words

Tsonga is right, his best level is better than every player but with a 17-9 head to head against Nadal, only God knows how that would read if he played his "not so best level".

Simple_Analyst wrote:is Tsonga not allowed to have an opinion?

Absolutely. Tsonga has quite a few. Like this one regarding Djokovic....

"(He has less aura) because of the number of victories in Grand Slams, but also the others were at the top for many years, even if Novak had a very good year this year."

http://www.rediff.com/sports/report/novak-djokovic-not-as-great-as-roger-federer-rafael-nadal-tsonga/20111111.htm

Simple_Analyst wrote:Tsonga is right, his best level is better than every player ...

Are you admitting something which is otherwise very hard for you?

No not really. His best level is better than every player why against his main rivals, he lags behind in the head to head. My only worry is, if his absolute best level sees him lose every 2 of 3 match against a rival like Nadal, heavens help him when he is not at his best level.

Simple_Analyst wrote:No not really. His best level is better than every player why against his main rivals, he lags behind in the head to head. My only worry is, if his absolute best level sees him lose every 2 of 3 match against a rival like Nadal, heavens help him when he is not at his best level.

Just a single monotonic note in your trumpet, SA. You need more notes in your symphony otherwise it sounds like a John Cage's ASAP .

I don't know about that Mrs Moderator. I know how good my best is and it's certainly not coming second best to someone almost every time

Simple_Analyst wrote:I don't know about that Mrs Moderator. I know how good my best is and it's certainly not coming second best to someone almost every time

Gosh - lucky you, and lucky us that you can still find the time in your winner's existence to entertain all of us on 606v2 on such a regular basis. Let's hear it for Simple's generosity folks

I am sure we are all wondering just what we have done to deserve him!

Simple_Analyst wrote: I know how good my best is and it's certainly not coming second best to someone almost every time

There are 127 players in a slam, who are second best, just one winner. BTW, have you lost a Tennis match yet?

There are many players who have no wins against Federer in their entire career.

time please wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:I don't know about that Mrs Moderator. I know how good my best is and it's certainly not coming second best to someone almost every time

Gosh - lucky you, and lucky us that you can still find the time in your winner's existence to entertain all of us on 606v2 on such a regular basis. Let's hear it for Simple's generosity folks

I am sure we are all wondering just what we have done to deserve him!

Dear Laver - please may we have a little pool with a nice little rockery in the corner of the forum and then Narcissus could amuse himself ever so quietly and give the rest of us just a few days 'time out'?

hysterically yours, TP x

time please wrote:Dear Laver - please may we have a little pool with a nice little rockery in the corner of the forum and then Narcissus could amuse himself ever so quietly and give the rest of us just a few days 'time out'?

hysterically yours, TP x

. I am trying my utmost to engage SA.

Seriously, SA can be erudite, when he so chooses. The 'Conditions Thread' was very nice.

He will engage if he wants to engage laver I think - I'm not sure internet friendship is a priority! Courtesy from him when dealing with other posters might be a nice novelty, but I'm not holding my breath!