The reasons why players decide to decide to play for one country or another.

by Portnoy Mon 09 Jan 2012, 5:21 pm

The international qualification laws are flawed as I've often remarked,

But essentially this is a topic looking through the telescope from the other end - the player's perspective.

Let's take a couple of recent Welsh-related incidents - Morgan has chosen England and Shingler to Scotland.

What are the reasons why these guys elect to plant their feet in one camp or another?

So far as I can see there are a number of possible motivations:

Take an easy cap and hope for the best.

Choose a country that has the greatest mid/long-term potential and hope hope to make the grade.

Get sucked in for the (possibly hollow) 'promise' of financial gain.

Go for the nation that you feel at heart you are most allied to.

Take any chance you can through whatever loophole in the full knowledge that you'll never play for your home nation.

Switch codes for pecuniary gain.

etc.

However strongly you feel (as I do) about the iniquities of the qualification rules and international selections, it does take two to tango and it makes a big difference to me as to the player's commitment and rationale for the choice.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 09 Jan 2012, 5:25 pm

Because Scotland is nicer and far cooler (in several senses) than Wales or England??

by pbuk0 Mon 09 Jan 2012, 5:34 pm

When you sign Professional forms to play Rugby you should state what country you play for... from that point you only qualify for that country..
I don't want to see any more players who only play for a certain country to further their career or because they are not good enough for their own country.. In Shingler's case he played for Wales u20's he should only be allowed to play for Wales.. Morgan is English without a drop of welsh blood in him so he should play for England.. 3 years residency laws should be abolished they encourage mercenaries..

by IanBru Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:14 pm

pbuk0 wrote:Morgan is English without a drop of welsh blood in him so he should play for England.

Well, since neither of Shingler's parents are Welsh, I'm looking forward to seeing him turn out for Scotland. Glad we cleared that up!

My my, that really was jolly simple.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:19 pm

IanBru wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:Morgan is English without a drop of welsh blood in him so he should play for England.

Well, since neither of Shingler's parents are Welsh, I'm looking forward to seeing him turn out for Scotland. Glad we cleared that up!

My my, that really was jolly simple.

I thought it was only Shinglers mother was Scottish...? Thats what the press had said.

by Cymroglan Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:22 pm

His father is English but Shingler was born in Swansea.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:25 pm

What a mix eh...!

by PJHolybloke Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:28 pm

How many countries are on Shingler's list? Very Happy

by majesticimperialman Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:28 pm

Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple realy.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:31 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple really.

Not necessarily. The old "zeal of the convert" factor can kick in, especially if you move at a very young age.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:32 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:How many countries are on Shingler's list?

Three apparently, could also be the new England flyhalf...?

I wonder if the RFU have also added him to their squad.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:33 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple realy.

Absolutely. I'm sure Simon Shaw still weeps over the fact that Kenya never came a calling, and Ronan O'Gara must be gutted that he isn't playing for the USA.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:33 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple really.

Not necessarily. The old "zeal of the convert" factor can kick in, especially if you move at a very young age.

Not necessarily that young in Tuilagis case, mind you the looming threat of deportation may have confirmed his allegiance.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 6:34 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple realy.

Absolutely. I'm sure Simon Shaw still weeps over the fact that Kenya never came a calling, and Ronan O'Gara must be gutted that he isn't playing for the USA.

Heaslip could have been bigger than Jesus in Israel..!

by majesticimperialman Mon 09 Jan 2012, 7:17 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

It does not matter which country you play your club game in, you always hope that the country you was born in will one day come calling for you.

Simple realy.

Absolutely. I'm sure Simon Shaw still weeps over the fact that Kenya never came a calling, and Ronan O'Gara must be gutted that he isn't playing for the USA.

I suppose it all depends at what age you are when you start your playing carrer in another country.

by Shifty Mon 09 Jan 2012, 7:55 pm

The Scarlets registered Ben Morgan as a Welsh player who was qualifing for Wales on residency, now 3 years has passed he would of been classed as Welsh and as a forward, of which Wales were in short supply he was likely to be called up. He had to make a decision and he did.

Shingler is a different matter, he was offered an extension to his development contract at Stradey where he has spent his career, but is behind Rhys Priestland and Stephen Jones.

by IanBru Mon 09 Jan 2012, 10:47 pm

Isn't this the result of the modern Union? People move about, they marry internationally, and their children can be born abroad.

I was born in England to Scottish parents. I could legitimately represent Scotland, England, Zimbabwe and (for a period in my youth) the USA. If England U20 had asked me to play for them, I probably would have, but only as a means of being noticed for the Scotland national team. Alas, neither Jacob Rowan nor Andy Robinson have come calling...

I can understand why Welsh supporters are annoyed at Shingler's recent 'conversion' - If it had happened to Scotland, I'd be spitting. Still, I'd advise members against emulating some of the more unseemly responses I've seen on 606v2.

Shingler isn't a 'mercenary' for choosing to play for his mother's country, even if he was trained in Wales.

by maestegmafia Mon 09 Jan 2012, 11:02 pm

IanBru wrote:If England U20 had asked me to play for them, I probably would have, but only as a means of being noticed for the Scotland national team. Alas, neither Jacob Rowan nor Andy Robinson have come calling...

You have hit the nail on the head their mate.

You would want to play for scotland, you could play for other countries.

Sorry that MR's Rowan and Robinson never called. Phone numbers get written down poorly when watching youngsters on a cold rainy night. Sometimes just bad luck. I even know a lad, a long time ago, who got a career in professional rugby at 21, did well, made the most of it, even earned a cap, because he was mistaken for another lad in the clubhouse after the trials. To be fair the two lads, unrelated, could of been twins.

Question is... When you were 20 years old and trying to fulfil your dreams of standing their collecting the Calcutta Cup from HRH Princess Ann, would you rather have been a Scottish U20 than an English one...?

by Geordie Mon 09 Jan 2012, 11:26 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:How many countries are on Shingler's list?

Others may not...but i saw what you did there...... laughing

by nganboy Tue 10 Jan 2012, 12:43 am

Majestic you have written

Surely every player would hope one day to play for His country of birth.

and
You have hit the nail on the head their mate.
You would want to play for scotland, you could play for other countries.

But IanBru was born in Engtland and appears to live there too.

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:07 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:How many countries are on Shingler's list?

Others may not...but i saw what you did there......

I'm glad it didn't go entirely unobserved Geordie, I though I was just showing my age. Very Happy

by IanBru Tue 10 Jan 2012, 10:15 am

nganboy wrote: But IanBru was born in Engtland and appears to live there too.

The point I was trying to make was that lots of people feel no particular allegiance to the country they were born in.

I was born in England through an accident of economics. I wouldn't really consider playing for the England senior team, but the U20s would have been a useful step towards the team I actually wanted to play for.

However, I would guard against making sweeping generalisations, or trying to predict who a particular player should want to play for. This is up to the individual, and is affected by far more deep-felt emotions, and factors to which we on 606v2 are not party.

maestegmafia wrote: Sorry that MR's Rowan and Robinson never called. Phone numbers get written down poorly when watching youngsters on a cold rainy night. Sometimes just bad luck.

I know, mate - it was obviously down to the phone numbers!

maestegmafia wrote: Question is... When you were 20 years old and trying to fulfill your dreams of standing their collecting the Calcutta Cup from HRH Princess Ann, would you rather have been a Scottish U20 than an English one...?

Interesting question, that. I can certainly see your point that there is something unseemly about a player who switches his allegiance for the sake of convenience.

However, my prevailing emotion is that whatever gets you into the national squad is acceptable. I suppose it's because I simply don't see the age-grade teams as being anything more than a training tool. In other words, I don't think it makes you less Scottish to play for England U20.

My experience is coloured by the fact that Scotland U17 and U18 didn't send scouts to my school until after I left (damn them...). They have since realised that there is a whole generation of Scottish-qualified talent in England (Harry Leonard being a prime example), for whom playing for Scotland is a perfectly natural decision.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 10 Jan 2012, 10:27 am

Its easy for us to cast our aspersions and give our views whilst not being in the situation.

For me I am Welsh born, bred and proud and I would say that if I couldn't play for Wales I wouldn't want to play for anyone else.

BUT I actually qualify for England on residency grounds so if I was playing at the top level and my way was blocked into the Welsh set up by someone and England came calling and offered me chance to play at the highest level would I be so quick to turn it down.

My kids can play for England through birth, Wales through parents and Ireland through grandparent and as much as I would want them to play for Wales they have to make their own choices and live with it.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 10 Jan 2012, 11:43 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Its easy for us to cast our aspersions and give our views whilst not being in the situation.

For me I am Welsh born, bred and proud and I would say that if I couldn't play for Wales I wouldn't want to play for anyone else.

BUT I actually qualify for England on residency grounds so if I was playing at the top level and my way was blocked into the Welsh set up by someone and England came calling and offered me chance to play at the highest level would I be so quick to turn it down.

Isnt that a major point? Its very easy to look at a players stats and see where he is born etc and judge from there but I would imagine if the chance of international rugby is there it might be hard to turn it down, especially if half of your family is from that country. While there is an element of a mercenary about it, why wouldnt you want to test yourself at the highest level?

Personally as I sit here, I wouldnt represent any country apart from England, but I can't honestly say if I was a pro player and Wales or Australia came calling (via my grandparents) that I wouldnt seriously consider it...

by **Biltong** Tue 10 Jan 2012, 11:46 am

I think the biggest reason for players to change allegiance is career opportunities.

If you want loyalty get a dog.

by Portnoy Tue 10 Jan 2012, 11:52 am

biltongbek wrote:I think the biggest reason for players to change allegiance is career opportunities.

If you want loyalty get a dog.

Depends on the breed and temperament.

by **Biltong** Tue 10 Jan 2012, 11:54 am

Human or Dog?

by TycroesOsprey Tue 10 Jan 2012, 12:05 pm

I was born in England to Welsh parents but we moved home when I was very young. I remember my grandfather telling me as a boy that I could always play for England if Wales didnt want me, he did add that he and the rest of the family would probably never talk to me again but at least I would have a cap. censored

by miteyironpaw Tue 10 Jan 2012, 12:07 pm

Seems like there are two camps, the NZRU and the pacific nations who want to see (parochially mindedly perhaps) the rules relaxed to enable the historic trend in fuzzy nationality betwixt NZ and her Pacific Island nation cousins to be fairly reflected; and everyone else in the world who frankly wants guys to be tattooed at birth and fitted with a national identity chip and shackled to their place of birth on pain of electrocution.

It seems to me more likely that a natural balance will evolve through action and reaction. For instance, after the recent world cup disappointment for England (surely the most influential union of them all?) I forsee the next England EPS containing only clear cut and uncontroversial off-shore selections.

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:02 pm

I qualify for England by birth and father's side and Ireland from mother's side.

Although I consider myself to be English, I'd be as proud to represent either and beyond that fantasy, I'm not qualified to comment on what drives other people.

That's not to say I don't have an opinion on it though as I've never been a fan of Hape or Flutey playing for England based on their previous turnouts for NZ.

Someone made a fair point earlier about age grade rugby being slightly different (Wales & France U20's being an exception), and if it's a springboard to a greater goal I'd say that was fine.

by miteyironpaw Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:06 pm

PJ - you don't that a youth side is a development tool funded by the respective union, and as such there is an implicit obligation to return the investment by representing the country in question if you can? or if you believe you have split loyalties then perhaps not stand in the way of some youngster with uncomplicated ambition to benefit from the structure?

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:19 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:PJ - you don't that a youth side is a development tool funded by the respective union, and as such there is an implicit obligation to return the investment by representing the country in question if you can? or if you believe you have split loyalties then perhaps not stand in the way of some youngster with uncomplicated ambition to benefit from the structure?

The obligation may well be implicit, but I would expect both parties to make any obligation, or alterior motive, explicit as a matter of honesty and good faith.

I think ultimately both parties (age grade team and player) can benefit by the introduction of talent, and as long as the relationship is symbiotic as opposed to parasitic it's OK. I wouldn't for instance be comfortable with a player representing a country through all of the age grades, speaking of the desire to represent at full cap level, only to do a runner if a better option came along, but that's based more on an honesty level than any feeling of national affinity surely?

by miteyironpaw Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:23 pm

I guess it comes down to the "modern" definition of "nationality". Personally I have three. I'd be annoyed by some pencil pushing crony preventing me from representing whichever country would pick me (rather than my lack of talent prohibiting me from representing any of them).

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:32 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:I guess it comes down to the "modern" definition of "nationality". Personally I have three. I'd be annoyed by some pencil pushing crony preventing me from representing whichever country would pick me (rather than my lack of talent prohibiting me from representing any of them).

I agree, it's more of a common occurence in a modern world where people are naturally becoming more migrant and furthermore in the small confines of our islands where it's feasible for someone to be qualified for Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland through granparent ruling alone.

For me the fly in the ointment is the residency rule, I believe the rule should be changed to 5 years and for the first year of residency to begin before the player's 21st birthday, at least that way you can be fairly certain that at least the finishing touches to a player's development have been in the country they can then go on to represent.

by Guest Tue 10 Jan 2012, 2:33 pm

In my opinion you should be able to choose to play for the country that you personally identify with.

In the case of Faletau, North, Manu Tuliagi, Hartley etc they wern't born in the UK but they grew up here for a good portion of their lives and if they feel like they are UK citizens then why shouldn't they be allowed to represent their country?

by miteyironpaw Tue 10 Jan 2012, 2:40 pm

I don't think anyone is suggesting they shouldn't IronMike, but you've deliberately selected uncontentious examples there to validate your argument.

There have been recent examples of much more eyebrow raising selections in recent times.

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 3:20 pm

IronMike, all of those players would, I think, qualify under a 5 year residency rule that began prior to their 21st birthday, if such a rule was adopted that is.

by doctor_grey Tue 10 Jan 2012, 5:48 pm

My nationality, I think, is English. But, I was born in Hong Kong.
My grandparents are:
1. English - all the way back to the Saxon invasions, so I am somewhat reliably told (that means I qualify for Germany?)
2. Australia - but her parents were both English, all the way back to the Norman invasion (I qualify for France and/or Oz?)
3. English, probably - a son of former colonial administrators, and was raised here, there, and everywhere, but never lived in England until uni.
4. Wales - once again I am reliably told my other grandmother is Welsh to back before the Romans arrived (but they could only subjugate the wimps on the east side of the Severn). Also, the earth, moon, sun and stars all revolve around one very specific valley (so I qualify to whinge and play for Wales?)

I think the point is we are mostly talking about a UK phemomenon. And, I agree with most posters who feel it is hard or inappropriate for us to set the course for others. If someone qualifies for a Home Nation, then it should be their choice which one. I believe that making selection for a U20 team the decider is too young for that lifelong decision. I would suggest age 21, unless they are capped for their Naition of Choice younger (A side or top national team, but adult teams only).

For people from other countries, I would simply use their passport and country of residence.

by Cymroglan Tue 10 Jan 2012, 6:08 pm

I'm Welsh and would not even consider playing for anybody else. My mother was English but that changes nothing I'm Welsh/British and have never thought of myself as being anything else.
But if I had any ambitions or even desire to play for England then I certainly would not have represented Wales at any age grade above schools rugby.

In short if it's your ambition to represent a country other than the one you are born in then have the courage of your conviction and stick to it.
Going on record saying one thing but changing your mind when a quicker route to a international cap suddenly crops up does not enhance your street cred.

by B91212 Tue 10 Jan 2012, 7:56 pm

Okay, following on from the good Doctors Post

Grandad (Dad's side) - Born and raised in North Nottinghamshire
Grandma (D) - Born and raised in North Nottinghamshire
Grandad (Mum's side) - Born and raised in the East End of London. True Cockney
Gran (M) - Born and raised in South Nottinghamshire

Dad - Born and raised in North Nottinghamshire
Mum - Erm, adopted. Born in Hereford to what is understood (as told to my Grandparents whilst adopting my Mum) to a Welsh 'well to do father' and young girl who was in his service at the time (16 years old). So in theory my Grandfather is/was Welsh (I will deny all knowledge if asked in real life - the shame is too much to bare Wink

).

Me - Born in North Nottinghamshire. Raised in the UK and West Africa with potentially a Welsh Grandad. Eligible for Canadian Citizenship in July due to completing the Government decreed residency period (already qualified under IRB rules).

Although irrelevant for me due to being very crap and now too old but hypothetically who the hell would I have played for? No matter how straight forward we want the regulations to be it can be damn complicated which is why more and more of these cases will arise.

by IanBru Tue 10 Jan 2012, 8:41 pm

Cymroglan wrote: In short if it's your ambition to represent a country other than the one you are born in then have the courage of your conviction and stick to it.

Yes, but what if your convictions say that another country's U20 squad is the best way of getting into your (intended) nation's senior team?

Cymroglan wrote:Going on record saying one thing but changing your mind when a quicker route to a international cap suddenly crops up does not enhance your street cred.

[Sigh] I'm amazed at the bitterness shown by some unfortunate posters at Mr Shingler exercising his freedom of choice. Would people be so riled if he had spurned another country?

by Cymroglan Tue 10 Jan 2012, 8:51 pm

Yes, but what if your convictions say that another country's U20 squad is the best way of getting into your (intended) nation's senior team?

Then follow your convictions by informing your host country your intentions that you are just using your host nation and do not intend playing for them at the top level.

Sigh] I'm amazed at the bitterness shown by some unfortunate posters at Mr Shingler exercising his freedom of choice. Would people be so riled if he had spurned another country?

I'm a man of my word if I say I'm going to do something then I do it.
Absolutely no bitterness I'm just disappointed in his lack of loyalty

by Gatts Tue 10 Jan 2012, 8:53 pm

Who gives a feck aboot Schmingler...if he doesn't want Wales fine, we dont wnat him best we know now he is a haggis bandit

by PJHolybloke Tue 10 Jan 2012, 8:54 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Yes, but what if your convictions say that another country's U20 squad is the best way of getting into your (intended) nation's senior team?

Then follow your convictions by informing your host country your intentions that you are just using your host nation and do not intend playing for them at the top level.

Sigh] I'm amazed at the bitterness shown by some unfortunate posters at Mr Shingler exercising his freedom of choice. Would people be so riled if he had spurned another country?

I'm a man of my word if I say I'm going to do something then I do it.
Absolutely no bitterness I'm just disappointed in his lack of loyalty

by Alex_Germany Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:17 pm

I never got called by England Sad

but would never have wanted to play for any of the other home nations or indeed major nations. But I did once consider going to work in Poland and would then have been happy to play for Poland. I moved too late to Germany but would have been happy to play for them (I saw them once - I might have made the bench a few years previously).

I guess in rugby terms I don't consider Germany or Poland the enemy.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:42 pm

My parents moved to England when I was 13.If England approached me to play draughts or any other sport after I had fulfilled residency qualification,my reply would have been short and to the point.
Anyone who wishes to sell out-good luck to them.They will have my back but I am sure that they can live with that.

by Portnoy Sun 15 Jan 2012, 9:03 am

On Thursday evening in the Rugby Club, Ben Morgan in an interview with Scott Quinnell said that he was going with his heart when he chose England,

by bedfordwelsh Sun 15 Jan 2012, 9:19 am

I don't think anyone can blame or knock Morgan for his decision. He is after all English by birth.

Good luck to him and if selected will be good to him up against faletau on 25 Feb.

by Portnoy Sun 15 Jan 2012, 10:13 am

I'd go further BW,

In a case like this, it seems to be the honourable decision.

by doctor_grey Sun 15 Jan 2012, 10:43 am

Not sure where this discussion will end up, but I agree with a number of posters who said that this phenomenon will repeat more and more. People are moving about the UNITED Kingdom more frequently now and "mixed parentages" will become common. A rule begging to be modernised. Hopefully with common sense.

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