When Should Ali have retired??

Imo Ali is the best ever boxer. He was the fastest and most skillfull heavyweight of all time. But it is sad to see what happened to him after his career was over and he boxed for too long when he was past it and ended up getting seriously hurt. This should be a warning to fighters who fight on too long specially if they are past it this is what can happen to you it also happened to Freddie Roach who has the same illness as Ali. So as we know Ali fought on too long past his best but when do people think he should have retired and if he retired earlier maybe this illness would not have happened?

After the third frazier fight.

Ditto.

With the above

What actually causes Parkinson's is not known, so although fighting on too long obviously won't have helped, it can't be blamed for the situation in which Ali finds himself. After all, there are plenty of fighters who went on too long who don't suffer from the disease.

Union Cane wrote:What actually causes Parkinson's is not known, so although fighting on too long obviously won't have helped, it can't be blamed for the situation in which Ali finds himself. After all, there are plenty of fighters who went on too long who don't suffer from the disease.

True. There is no proof that boxing blows and Parkinsons are related although as you say it probably didnt help

Obviously have no medical qualification whatsoever and am fairly sure Ali has been diagnosed by far more qualified folk than myself but have read a few quotes from ex fighters and the like who say Ali has brain damage, pure and simple the whole Parkinsons thing and idea he would have got it anyway is simply not the case, is an excuse made up by boxing or Ali apologists. Not saying I would agree or am even vaguely qualified to comment but is food for thought.

I'm going to be slightly controversial on this one and suggest that Ali should have retired after the Rumble. There's an almost beautiful symmetry in him retiring after defeating Foreman.

As Ali himself said in the build up to the Rumble (when he was intent that it would be his last fight) - he came in by beating the big bad champion and he was going to leave by beating the big bad champion.

The 2nd of October 1975

superflyweight wrote:I'm going to be slightly controversial on this one and suggest that Ali should have retired after the Rumble. There's an almost beautiful symmetry in him retiring after defeating Foreman.

As Ali himself said in the build up to the Rumble (when he was intent that it would be his last fight) - he came in by beating the big bad champion and he was going to leave by beating the big bad champion.

Nah I think the brutal beating of Frazier in Manilla gave him a lot of piece of mind and ended that saga. I couldnt imagine the Ali Frazier rivalry without Manilla and no 3rd fight

When he started slurring his words...

I saw the Ali documentary before the Holmes fight and was staggered how they could let that guy enter a ring....He was slurring..his sparring partners were beating him up..

and he went on to fight Berbick!!!

Thing is.. like with Elvis when a guy is so big and makes a lot of money all the sad hangers-on are loathe to lose their meal ticket and often it is the individual himself whose last to see his skills have eroded.....or in Elvis case that the Drugs do work!!!

People are drawn to these guys like moths-to-flame and won't risk being isolated by harsh truths the celebrity doesn't want to here...

Jackson's doctor is a case in point....

I feel as quick as I was at 21 but I'm not!!!!

Windy and Rowley are right about when he should've stopped (Maybe even after his greatest win over Foreman) ..but people who live through their celebrity and get fulfillness doing something won't stop unless they have to...

Sad!! really these guys live to work and................and it gives them meaning in life that other things can't fill..

As for parkinsons I'd bet the wallopings contributed....

I think the Thrilla is such an iconic fight its hard to imagine Ali without it.

Saw that documentary Truss, hindsight is always 20-20 but was staggering anyone in his camp could see that day in day out and think he had anything left, he couldn't even use a speed bag and as you say was getting chased round the ring by his sparring partners, tragic stuff really.

alma wrote:You could even argue after Rumble in the Jungle. He'd already avenged his defeat by beating Frazier again.

Yes but he didnt really beat Frazier in the second fight. He got the decision...but only in Manilla did he prove to the world he was the better fighter of the two

Oh come on, Steffan!

He won the second Frazier fight as clear as daylight. The only controversy there was the fact that he used a few dirty tricks along the way.

Think he proved he was the better of the two when he beat Foreman don't you!!!

Ignoring his past record!!

HumanWindmill wrote:Oh come on, Steffan!

He won the second Frazier fight as clear as daylight. The only controversy there was the fact that he used a few dirty tricks along the way.

No you misunderstood me. I know he won the second fight clearly but I just mean the Thrilla in Manila sealed the deal if you know what I mean. Iv watched pre Manila build up and there was still a lot of specualtion to who was the better fighter. Manila gave that answer to a lot of people and was cement on Alis legacy

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think he proved he was the better of the two when he beat Foreman don't you!!!

Ignoring his past record!!

Proved he had the better chin anyway

So are we all going down this route of the Thrilla in Manila was pointless when most agreed earlier it should of been Alis last fight therefore meaning it was a necessary?

Union Cane wrote:What actually causes Parkinson's is not known, so although fighting on too long obviously won't have helped, it can't be blamed for the situation in which Ali finds himself. After all, there are plenty of fighters who went on too long who don't suffer from the disease.

Hmmmmmmmmm, being punched in the head will affect people differently, but it is obvious that it didn't help Ali isn't it. I mean Tommy Hearns isn't slurring like a fool now because he got lazy

Yes but he didnt really beat Frazier in the second fight. He got the decision...but only in Manilla did he prove to the world he was the better fighter of the two.

I don't think Manilla proved that. Two fighters on the slide and going at it hell for leather but not something that can be used to measure anything other than sheer guts and strength of mind. As Truss said, Ali had already proven that he was a better fighter than Frazier. As was famously said, Manilla was really for the championship of each other. Frazier would always give Ali hell but there's no doubting who the better fighter was.

Steffan wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Oh come on, Steffan!

He won the second Frazier fight as clear as daylight. The only controversy there was the fact that he used a few dirty tricks along the way.

No you misunderstood me. I know he won the second fight clearly but I just mean the Thrilla in Manila sealed the deal if you know what I mean. Iv watched pre Manila build up and there was still a lot of specualtion to who was the better fighter. Manila gave that answer to a lot of people and was cement on Alis legacy

Got it.

Misunderstood. Sorry, mate.

Put it down to the senility.

HumanWindmill wrote:Got it.

Misunderstood. Sorry, mate.

Put it down to the senility.

No worries

Thought you having a Trussman moment then

Thought you having...

Sounds like them old Charlie Chan films I used to love..

Seanusarrilius wrote:

Union Cane wrote:What actually causes Parkinson's is not known, so although fighting on too long obviously won't have helped, it can't be blamed for the situation in which Ali finds himself. After all, there are plenty of fighters who went on too long who don't suffer from the disease.

Hmmmmmmmmm, being punched in the head will affect people differently, but it is obvious that it didn't help Ali isn't it. I mean Tommy Hearns isn't slurring like a fool now because he got lazy

In an attempt at debunking the "boxing and Parkinson's" myth...does anyone know Michael J Fox's record?

Not being flippant but Parkinson's doesn't discriminate.

It's like the smoking/cancer link.

Not sure anyoneis saying Ali does not have Parkinsons or boxing causes it Dave but think a lot have argued the length of his career and the beatings he took in some of the later fights have served to accelerate or exacerbate the effects of the illness.

No poll, Waingro! What's up?

In the build up to the Berbick fight he was getting beaten up by Tommy Hearns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2thglwsTak

The size difference is crazy, how he was meant to beat Berbick is beyond me.

After the Manila fight. No question. Showed that there was no man who could beat a decent level Ali into submission. Its why, I think Frazier was so bitter about it - had he won the series he might have been magnanimous. Instead he was reduced to boasting about contributing to his Parkinsons/Brain damage.

rowley wrote:Not sure anyoneis saying Ali does not have Parkinsons or boxing causes it Dave but think a lot have argued the length of his career and the beatings he took in some of the later fights have served to accelerate or exacerbate the effects of the illness.

Rowley, I foolishly read Waingro's original post (mistake I won't be in a hurry to repeat) and it asks if Ali had retired earlier could his illness have been prevented. I then compounded this mistake by assuming Waingro believes Ali's Parkinson's was a direct result of boxing well past his best as opposed to it being a pre-existing condition which was exacerbated by taking too many punches to the head.

I think people are right he should have retired after the Thrilla in Manilla he took alot of punishment in that fight and tbh I think his trainers should have told him he should retire it was shameful they let him fight on so much longer and let him get badly beaten by guys he would have schooled in his prime.

rowley wrote:Obviously have no medical qualification whatsoever and am fairly sure Ali has been diagnosed by far more qualified folk than myself but have read a few quotes from ex fighters and the like who say Ali has brain damage, pure and simple the whole Parkinsons thing and idea he would have got it anyway is simply not the case, is an excuse made up by boxing or Ali apologists. Not saying I would agree or am even vaguely qualified to comment but is food for thought.

you are dead right- Ali has Parkinson's syndrome not disease- the disease attacks the cells in the brain that produce something called dopamine. In Ali's case these cells were damaged by him taking repeated blows to the back of his head- the outcome is the same, but the root cause is different.
There's a good link from Meldrick Taylors offical wedsite to a page that's dedicated to brain danmage in boxers for anyone interested in it.
As for when should he have retired - I'd say straight after the Foreman fight, - he took a ridiculously high number of punches in his fights after that one, and it's impossible to be hit in the head without it damaging your brain -even in sparring, and that damage is cumulative and irreversible

rowley wrote:Saw that documentary Truss, hindsight is always 20-20 but was staggering anyone in his camp could see that day in day out and think he had anything left, he couldn't even use a speed bag and as you say was getting chased round the ring by his sparring partners, tragic stuff really.

How did his trainer let him fight like that?? He should have told Ali to retire and stopped training him it was shameful to let him continue it was also clear he had been badly hurt from to much punishement.