Boxers can be cowards

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:13 pm

Touchy subject I know, but one I feel could be debated sensibly.

I personally dont buy 'no boxer who steps in the ring can be a coward' argument.

In the same way a police officer can be labelled a coward for failing to protect a colleague or member of the public. In the same way an army trooper can be labelled a coward for refusing to fight. Past acts of bravery are not taken into consideration, it is at that point in time they are a coward, or at the very least have committed a cowardly act.

Boxing has its cowards, why it is they get away with being labelled as such?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:19 pm

If you get in the ring you aren't a coward. Have you ever boxed?

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:26 pm

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:If you get in the ring you aren't a coward. Have you ever boxed?

Yes.

How can you not be a coward. What if you dont want to fight and are there to survive. What if you get hit and stay down when you could get up?

Is a policeman a coward if he fails to protect a member of the public because he might get hurt?

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:27 pm

For me I don't believe you are a coward, I just think there are moments when a fighter gets scared or can't take any more. Making them human. To call them cowards is the wrong word, it's just finding there mental limit and not being able to carry on, like Cotto with MArg. But for me if you are getting in the ring in the first place, then I do not believe you are a coward as a coward is someone that never shows bravery, and I believe it is brave to get in the ring, I would not want to get in the ring with certain fighters, I do not believe I am a coward for it.

All about your perception and your outlook on life however I suppose.

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:29 pm

The argument is pretty invalid as you haven't given examples of cowards in the ring.

If you noted anyone who has taken the padding out of the glove or worn hand wraps made of plaster I would say, yes they're cowards. But you haven't put much of a point across?

by **HumanWindmill** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:31 pm

I honestly believe that a fighter isn't afraid of being hurt but can be terrified of being defeated or humiliated, which can provoke him into behaving very negatively and appearing to be scared out of his wits.

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:31 pm

Anybody that has the balls to step in to a boxing ring in a competitive atmosphere is far from a coward. It takes a huge amount of courage to even consider doing so.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:31 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:For me I don't believe you are a coward, I just think there are moments when a fighter gets scared or can't take any more. Making them human. To call them cowards is the wrong word, it's just finding there mental limit and not being able to carry on, like Cotto with MArg. But for me if you are getting in the ring in the first place, then I do not believe you are a coward as a coward is someone that never shows bravery, and I believe it is brave to get in the ring, I would not want to get in the ring with certain fighters, I do not believe I am a coward for it.

All about your perception and your outlook on life however I suppose.

The boxer has went in there with the intention of fighting and has basically bottled it. If a soldier does that on the front line it would not be accepted. Reaching your mental limit maybe, but the bravest of the brave can work through that pushing new limits. It is not as if boxing is the most dangerous occupation either... Not saying their are many, but boxing does have its share of cowards.

by **superflyweight** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:32 pm

I think coward is far too strong a word when talking about something as trivial as sport. Leaving aside illegal hand wrapping or other methods of cheating, perhaps "Boxers can get scared" would be a better title.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:33 pm

johnson2 wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:For me I don't believe you are a coward, I just think there are moments when a fighter gets scared or can't take any more. Making them human. To call them cowards is the wrong word, it's just finding there mental limit and not being able to carry on, like Cotto with MArg. But for me if you are getting in the ring in the first place, then I do not believe you are a coward as a coward is someone that never shows bravery, and I believe it is brave to get in the ring, I would not want to get in the ring with certain fighters, I do not believe I am a coward for it.

All about your perception and your outlook on life however I suppose.

The boxer has went in there with the intention of fighting and has basically bottled it. If a soldier does that on the front line it would not be accepted. Reaching your mental limit maybe, but the bravest of the brave can work through that pushing new limits. It is not as if boxing is the most dangerous occupation either... Not saying their are many, but boxing does have its share of cowards.

Ok, but who?

by Valero's Conscience Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:35 pm

Coward is too strong but some have definitely been scared and/or intimidated that some would perceive as cowardice.

Although I may make exception for Dirrell, that little runt will always have a special place in my heart! Laugh

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:37 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:
johnson2 wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:For me I don't believe you are a coward, I just think there are moments when a fighter gets scared or can't take any more. Making them human. To call them cowards is the wrong word, it's just finding there mental limit and not being able to carry on, like Cotto with MArg. But for me if you are getting in the ring in the first place, then I do not believe you are a coward as a coward is someone that never shows bravery, and I believe it is brave to get in the ring, I would not want to get in the ring with certain fighters, I do not believe I am a coward for it.

All about your perception and your outlook on life however I suppose.

The boxer has went in there with the intention of fighting and has basically bottled it. If a soldier does that on the front line it would not be accepted. Reaching your mental limit maybe, but the bravest of the brave can work through that pushing new limits. It is not as if boxing is the most dangerous occupation either... Not saying their are many, but boxing does have its share of cowards.

Ok, but who?

Cotto against Marg would be one of many examples. Basically decided he could take no more and quit. When you hear some of the stories about soldiers is really puts it in to context just how brave they are compared to a lot of boxers...

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:37 pm

I'd be bricking it if I had to get into the ring with Arthur Abraham.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:38 pm

johnson2 wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:
johnson2 wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:For me I don't believe you are a coward, I just think there are moments when a fighter gets scared or can't take any more. Making them human. To call them cowards is the wrong word, it's just finding there mental limit and not being able to carry on, like Cotto with MArg. But for me if you are getting in the ring in the first place, then I do not believe you are a coward as a coward is someone that never shows bravery, and I believe it is brave to get in the ring, I would not want to get in the ring with certain fighters, I do not believe I am a coward for it.

All about your perception and your outlook on life however I suppose.

The boxer has went in there with the intention of fighting and has basically bottled it. If a soldier does that on the front line it would not be accepted. Reaching your mental limit maybe, but the bravest of the brave can work through that pushing new limits. It is not as if boxing is the most dangerous occupation either... Not saying their are many, but boxing does have its share of cowards.

Ok, but who?

Cotto against Marg would be one of many examples. Basically decided he could take no more and quit. When you hear some of the stories about soldiers is really puts it in to context just how brave they are compared to a lot of boxers...

Which isn't cowardice...

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:39 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:I'd be bricking it if I had to get into the ring with Arthur Abraham.

Just jab him and move. He'd have no answer.

Abraham is a example of a brave fighter. Broken jaw which most would quit. Carried on. Warrior heart.

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:40 pm

The only person I can think he may be referring to is Spinks vs Tyson?

I would say the real cowards are those who cheat to vein an advantage, personally having an effect on the guy they are fighting. However, if the fight is fair and the bell rings, they're both in there to do their job.

If a soldier bottles it on the front line, they are given psychological assessments. We don't live in the days where we shoot our own for suffering from trauma on the battlefield...

by manos de piedra Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:42 pm

Anyone is capable of a cowardly act. Theres no one size fits all. People can be cowardly/brave in different situations.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:43 pm

School Project wrote:The only person I can think he may be referring to is Spinks vs Tyson?

I would say the real cowards are those who cheat to vein an advantage, personally having an effect on the guy they are fighting. However, if the fight is fair and the bell rings, they're both in there to do their job.

If a soldier bottles it on the front line, they are given psychological assessments. We don't live in the days where we shoot our own for suffering from trauma on the battlefield...

Save them the money, we know the answer. I am not saying I would be any better, who knows until you are in the situation, but to disguise it as anything other than a cowardly act is wrong.

by **superflyweight** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:44 pm

When you hear some of the stories about soldiers is really puts it in to context just how brave they are compared to a lot of boxers...

.

That's not a great comparison.

Soldiers go through extensive training on how to deal with life and death situations and their actions will largely be determined by that training. Tremendous bravery but bravery that is expected of them.

Boxers are simply taking part in a sport for money - why should Cotto take further punishment for your gratification? There's been far too many deaths in the ring over the years for boxers to be under added pressure not too quit.

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:44 pm

In all fairness Johnson, using Cotto vs Margarito is a poor example. You DO know the question Karts over that fight surely?

Besides, the soldier comparison is a little thin. Especially given that footballer players will fall over and cry when they are tapped at the ankles yet get paid more than mortal boxers or soldiers will ever see in their lifetime.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:46 pm

johnson2 wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:I'd be bricking it if I had to get into the ring with Arthur Abraham.

Just jab him and move. He'd have no answer.

Abraham is a example of a brave fighter. Broken jaw which most would quit. Carried on. Warrior heart.

Yeah, ok if Dirrell can't get away with doing it, I don't think I can.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:47 pm

superflyweight wrote:
When you hear some of the stories about soldiers is really puts it in to context just how brave they are compared to a lot of boxers...
.

That's not a great comparison.

Soldiers go through extensive training on how to deal with life and death situations and their actions will largely be determined by that training. Tremendous bravery but bravery that is expected of them.

Boxers are simply taking part in a sport for money - why should Cotto take further punishment for your gratification? There's been far too many deaths in the ring over the years for boxers to be under added pressure not too quit.

You can do all the training you like, but nothing will compare the being put in the situation. Cant simulate all situations in training.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:49 pm

School Project wrote:In all fairness Johnson, using Cotto vs Margarito is a poor example. You DO know the question Karts over that fight surely?

Besides, the soldier comparison is a little thin. Especially given that footballer players will fall over and cry when they are tapped at the ankles yet get paid more than mortal boxers or soldiers will ever see in their lifetime.

I've never called a footballer brave. Money has nothing to do with it either. A fighter will be brave regardless of the money he is earning, something in the mind set I think. No quit.

by Sir. badgerhands Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:51 pm

I remember Gus D'amato (spelling) saying something along the lines of every fighter is scared before a fight and if they say their not are either bluffing or mentally ill.

It's how they deal with that fear and face it that makes the fighter what he is.

So no, I wouldn't call any fighter a coward per se, if they've climbed through the ropes their a braver man than I.

by **hampo17** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:54 pm

Not sure how you can call Cotto a coward? The guy took a savage beating, by a guy using possibly an illegal substance. Not exactly like he got hit once and took a knee is it.

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:54 pm

Never said you did, but I cant see the tenuous link between bravery in the ring (sport) to shooting at someone in a desert (soldier). So I compared it with another sport that people idolise.

Yes soldiers are brave, even under stress and torment, even if they bottled it... they are still brave.

If a boxer feels like he is going to die and thinks "hey I've got a family to think about" and takes a knee, how is he not brave? There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity. Cowardly has nothing to do with it in Cottos case.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:56 pm

hampo171 wrote:Not sure how you can call Cotto a coward? The guy took a savage beating, by a guy using possibly an illegal substance. Not exactly like he got hit once and took a knee is it.

But he had enough left to continue is my point.

Stepping through the ropes does not make you brave, just like being in the army does not make you a hero. It is what you do when faced with an almost impossible situation the determines how brave you are. Cotto quit (like many others would do I imagine).

by **hampo17** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:57 pm

How do you know he did? Where you inside his head? You have no idea if he had it in him to continue.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 12:59 pm

hampo171 wrote:How do you know he did? Where you inside his head? You have no idea if he had it in him to continue.

Do me a favour.... he took a knee which was his own choice. He didnt get starched.

by **hampo17** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:03 pm

As I said, he took a savage beating, mentally he obviously didn't think he could continue. As SP said he probably thought I've got a family to support and took the smart option, instead of fighting on and potentially leaving himself with serious long term damage.

by manos de piedra Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:08 pm

Ultimately Johnson2 is right, I think, but obviously its not a black or white issue and can be complicated. The mere act of entering a ring for a contest be it at amateur level or for the heavyweight championship of the world does not entitle one to immunity from ever commiting a cowardly act or being labelled as such. I know many boxers at various levels that have blatantly done despicable or cowardly things and th fact they enter a ring to box every so often does not change that.

Look at Audley Harrison for example. He put on one of the most whimpering displays ever seen in a world title fight and was rightly criticised for it. Pocketed a handy million for landing a single jab. But at the same time he also fought one armed against Sprott and managed to find the win in that fight.

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:18 pm

I'm not saying Johnson is wrong, his example is a little weak given the circumstances around the fight. Seeing as Cotto has one of the best records at Welterweight in recent years and he hasn't taken an easy fight that often - I would say he's far from a coward for taking a knee.

But that's the only example he's given...

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:19 pm

Put it like this for me, one single act of something that can be percieved as cowardice does not make a man a coward. You cannot call Cotto a coward just because he decided the best option was to quit, in my opinion, some people aren't prepared to die in the ring, is this cowardly?

by manos de piedra Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:22 pm

School Project wrote:I'm not saying Johnson is wrong, his example is a little weak given the circumstances around the fight. Seeing as Cotto has one of the best records at Welterweight in recent years and he hasn't taken an easy fight that often - I would say he's far from a coward for taking a knee.

But that's the only example he's given...

I agree.This is what gets peoples backs up on the issue. Coward is a strong word and just because boxers can be capable of being cowards or cowardly acts does not mean the word should be used lightly or in unjust circumstances.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:22 pm

School Project wrote:The only person I can think he may be referring to is Spinks vs Tyson?

Even that example I do not think is cowardly. I think he was petrified of Tyson, yes, but the punches he got caught with legitimately knocked him down and out, his performance was awful due to him being incredibly scared, but even when he got up from the first knockdown his firs thing to try and do was push Tyson back with a lead right hand. Still got sparked, mind.

by johnson2 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 1:38 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Put it like this for me, one single act of something that can be percieved as cowardice does not make a man a coward. You cannot call Cotto a coward just because he decided the best option was to quit, in my opinion, some people aren't prepared to die in the ring, is this cowardly?

Dont be so over the top. He was never as risk of this happening.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:14 pm

johnson2 wrote:
SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:If you get in the ring you aren't a coward. Have you ever boxed?

Yes.

How can you not be a coward. What if you dont want to fight and are there to survive. What if you get hit and stay down when you could get up?

Is a policeman a coward if he fails to protect a member of the public because he might get hurt?

I'm not sure what your point is with the police they are paid to protect the public. Boxers are paid to fight. There is nothing in the contracts they sign saying they can't quit so it's totally different.

It takes balls to get in the ring in the first place so I would never call a fighter a coward.

by No1Jonesy Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:16 pm

I am inclined to agree and disagree with this OP

I will start by disagreeing on the basis that the bravest thing to do for a boxer is that walk to the ring and climb through the ropes to duke it out with a man that could potentially kill you and anything that happens in that ring is void of cowardice (unless you have cheated in any form e.g tampered wraps PEDs). If you quit due to recieving a beating and you know your health is on the line - thats not cowardly thats clever

I agree boxers can be cowards out of the ring in their actions and will use Bowe's dumping of his belt to avoid fighting Lewis.

by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:
I agree boxers can be cowards out of the ring in their actions and will use Bowe's dumping of his belt to avoid fighting Lewis.

That doesn't make Bowe a coward though. Intimidated by Lewis, maybe. But a coward? No chance.

Rock Newman offered up a couple of drug-addled former champions for stupidly good money. It was fight Dokes and Ferguson for tons of relatively easy cash or fight a dangerous guy like Lewis. He took the sensible option for him at the time. Maybe he was scared of Lewis or maybe he wasn't, but it is a poor example of cowardice.

by **superflyweight** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:33 pm

Bowe putting the belt in a bin was an act of environmental friendliness that I'd like to see more of in boxers. I've never seen Ali, Ray Robinson, Duran or any of those other so called "greats" putting anything in a bin.

by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:36 pm

superflyweight wrote:Bowe putting the belt in a bin was an act of environmental friendliness that I'd like to see more of in boxers. I've never seen Ali, Ray Robinson, Duran or any of those other so called "greats" putting anything in a bin.

That's not true, the sport is littered with similar acts.

by **superflyweight** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:38 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Bowe putting the belt in a bin was an act of environmental friendliness that I'd like to see more of in boxers. I've never seen Ali, Ray Robinson, Duran or any of those other so called "greats" putting anything in a bin.

That's not true, the sport is littered with similar acts.

Are you trash talking me? If so, can it!

by No1Jonesy Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:38 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:
I agree boxers can be cowards out of the ring in their actions and will use Bowe's dumping of his belt to avoid fighting Lewis.

That doesn't make Bowe a coward though. Intimidated by Lewis, maybe. But a coward? No chance.

Rock Newman offered up a couple of drug-addled former champions for stupidly good money. It was fight Dokes and Ferguson for tons of relatively easy cash or fight a dangerous guy like Lewis. He took the sensible option for him at the time. Maybe he was scared of Lewis or maybe he wasn't, but it is a poor example of cowardice.

It's not a poor example at all - Lewis was his mandatory - the number 1 guy to challenge for the title. Bowe through previous experience was scared of Lewis

Being scared and showing adversity in the face of fear is what boxers show when entering the ring

Bowe showed fear in the thought of fighting Lewis and ultimately succumbed to that fear which I assosciate as cowerdness

by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:43 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Bowe putting the belt in a bin was an act of environmental friendliness that I'd like to see more of in boxers. I've never seen Ali, Ray Robinson, Duran or any of those other so called "greats" putting anything in a bin.

That's not true, the sport is littered with similar acts.

Are you trash talking me? If so, can it!

What if I am? I am sick of your rubbish.

by **Union Cane** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 2:56 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Bowe putting the belt in a bin was an act of environmental friendliness that I'd like to see more of in boxers. I've never seen Ali, Ray Robinson, Duran or any of those other so called "greats" putting anything in a bin.

That's not true, the sport is littered with similar acts.

Are you trash talking me? If so, can it!

What if I am? I am sick of your rubbish.

This garbage stops now.

by sparky marky Mon 16 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

Replace the word 'coward' with 'quitter'. That would be more suited to what you're trying to say......

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 3:02 pm

I like it, Union. Dump these clowns...

by School Project Mon 16 Jan 2012, 3:47 pm

Fists of Fury wrote: I like it, Union. Dump these clowns...

Jokes getting old now, no point recycling it...

by TopHat24/7 Mon 16 Jan 2012, 3:59 pm

Cheating is cowardice, though one may argue than it the two most obvious examples (Marg v Cotto and the lad who removed the padding from his gloves) they at least still had the bravery to get in the wing and get punched in the face a lot.

I understand what people are saying about it taking bravery just to step in the dquared circle, but, whilst examples are few, I think if you step in knowing you're going to through a fight that isn't bravery.

In the instance of Danny Green vs a chap called Paul Briggs I don't think it unfair at all the call Briggs a coward, throwing the fight in the first minute of the first round having received barely a scuffing blow to the top of the head and having weighed in 4kg over the limit beforehand (evidence of his disregard for the fight as a contest).

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DEkmrmrnD1d8&sa=U&ei=RUkUT6pqwc-EB7W4xL8C&ved=0CDgQtwIwBw&usg=AFQjCNHBWeAVhuT0kkZX8tESHwP965Qpaw

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 16 Jan 2012, 4:07 pm

School Project wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote: I like it, Union. Dump these clowns...

Jokes getting old now, no point recycling it...

We should bin this thread.

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