Where in the table will Wales finish?

First topic message reminder :

welshrugbypics.co.uk/events/rbs-six-nations-launch-250112/CDF_250112_RBS_Six_Nations_Launch_15.JPG

That would be a nice picture!

TBS

1. Mitchell is a more than able replacement for Adam Jones espescially since he has been getting a lot more game time for Exeter who are sitting 6th in the AP and whose pack have been very good.

2. Bradley and Ian Evans are both in good form Evans in paticular is quality, we also have Ryan as back up and even Shinger so AWJ/Charts is a blow but not a big one.

3. Dan is quiet and unassuning but we have again players who can step up with considerable experience. Ryan again or Shingler or even Powell. Not ideal but it demostrates a strength in depth in the pack we havent had for 20 years or more.

4. Ten is a problem but not insurmountable. Whether its Hook, Biggar, Tovey, we will have a player who is a regular in the ten position at his club/region.

5. Midfield creativity is somthing that we need but we have Beck and Henson who can do somthing there if needed and the JR/JD partenrship has proven itself in the RWC so I am not to worried about that.

6. Halfpenny has been in excellent form as a full back for the Blues so I have no idea where that comes from.

So the welsh pack will more than hold their own in the scrum, Evans is a lineout specialist as well as a big lump so whilst we lose charteris expertise we gain a ball carrier as well as a lineout player. The backrow may lose some balance but Faletau is in teh form of his life and warburton will win turnovers which is crucial in the modern game.

Our backs are very fast very big and very strong and all of them if given enough ball can tear holes in any defence. So I would say your being well pessemistic. No its not perfect but what tournament is? We are looking better than in the past when injuries to 4 of the pack and our outside half would have killed any hope. Just goes to show how much we have moved forward.

TycroesOsprey agreed
And we should also not forget how much of a loss BOD will be to Ireland.
He was the one Irish back who would have tackled his heart out and the size of the opponent would not have bothered him.

The whole second row issue is simply laughable. People saying how big a loss AWJ and Luke is are missing the advantages Bradley and Ian bring to the table. They give us more grunt at scrumtime, they are both big ball carriers (much more than either AWJ and Charts) Ian Evans is as good in the line as charteris but we will miss lukes defence. I dont think we are weaker in the second row but I do think we will have different strengths there which people arent yet appreciating.

Wales are deemed to have been the best NH side at the world cup.

Let's look at some results between the six Nations teams.

England beat Scotland 16-12
Ireland beat Italy 36-6
Wales beat Ireland 22-10
France beat england 19-12
France beat Wales 9-8

Results of six Nation teams vs Quad nation teams.

England beat argentina 13-9
Ireland beat Australia 15-6
SA beat Wales 17-16
Australia beat Italy 32-6
Argentina beat scotland 13-12
Australia beat Wales 21-18
New Zealand beat France 9-8

According to the results Ireland was the only Six Nations country to beat a top three ranked team.

six Nations teams vs one another, France came out on top, despite being the most inconsistent team in the world cup to make a final.

So in my view reults wise the honours go to either Ireland or France.

Tournamnet wise france got to the final, so in my view they were the best NH team at the world cup.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Beyond Priestland there's very little creativity in the backline

Ashley Beck's a creative midfielder. Jonathan Davies plays best with a playmaker in midfield with him. Have those two as the centre pairing and BOD's your uncle.

France and England are consistantly the most successful teams against the SH and in the World cup having got to 6 finals between them and beaten the SH teams home and away. That tells me which teams are the best in the NH and it ain't Wales, who will remain in the Engine room for the forseeable future.

I only actually put Wales down for 4th, when i didn't really mean it, and have to come clean, i thought they might be 5th but wanted the average Welsh fan to have a bit of a boost re their finishing position. C'mon, of course you can be 4th, can't you?

Using statistics from one tournament to decide who's going to do well in another. Warrior, you're a genius.

english warrior wrote:France and England are consistantly the most successful teams against the SH and in the World cup having got to 6 finals between them and beaten the SH teams home and away. That tells me which teams are the best in the NH and it ain't Wales, who will remain in the Engine room for the forseeable future.

I only actually put Wales down for 4th, when i didn't really mean it, and have to come clean, i thought they might be 5th but wanted the average Welsh fan to have a bit of a boost re their finishing position. C'mon, of course you can be 4th, can't you?

1. the Southern Hemisphere teams are not playing in the Six Nations

2. The Southern Hemisphere teams have struggled against Scotland and Ireland as much as England and France

3. Only Ireland have beaten a Southern Hemisphere side recently

4. The only teams to come close to beating Southern Hemisphere teams recently are Wales and France.

I can't understand your comment about Wales not improving their game in the foreseeable future...! Why would you think that? They appear to the entire world to be a nation producing a large quantity of talented youngsters who appear to be improving their national effort. Toby Faletau, Rhys Priestland, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Danny Lydiate and Sam Warburton are all young players that have received accolades from International press.

England have beaten Australia home and away in the last year what have the rest managed, diddly squat is what..

Anyway keep the unfounded confidence in Wales going, because then the 'Fall' is even harder, but rest assurred we won't give you a hard time when it happens, promise!!

maestegmafia wrote:
3. Only Ireland have beaten a Southern Hemisphere side recently

Argentina, no longer in the SH.
Samoa an Fiji, no longer in the SH ( yeah I know , Wales beat them! )
Tonga ....ooops (France Although they favourites to win the 6 nations....

Half of the England team will be completely new. Now that all of your 2003 WC winners are finally gone we can put that one to rest

munkian wrote:Half of the England team will be completely new. Now that all of your 2003 WC winners are finally gone we can put that one to rest

And most of our 2004-2010 losers, so can we put that to rest too?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

munkian wrote:Half of the England team will be completely new. Now that all of your 2003 WC winners are finally gone we can put that one to rest

And most of our 2004-2010 losers, so can we put that to rest too?

Deal

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:5th for me. Just don't think our boys are on form or have the strength in depth to replace injured players. Gatland & Wales surprised me in the RWC. Hats off to them they played well but blew the semi - very disappointing.

The saes rarely credit us with a good team. They just don't get that rugby games are won by moving the ball at pace. They think they can win with an almighty arm wrestle. Who came up with their tactics? Douglas Haig? Fortunately the more enlightened countries play at pace with skill and great prescence of mind. That's why the saes can't keep up with the French Ozzies or All Blacks. The only time england produced a team of note they actually had a backline that could move the ball and score tries. Apart from that over the course of their history they've not been able to take more than an even share of the spoils in their games with little old us!

On the basis of that record I'm not about to accept saes opinion on what makes a good team.

Let's not be complacent though boys. We've got problems going into this 6N.

1. No world class replacement for Adam Jones
2. Locks are thin on the ground
3. After Dan Lydiate who? Shingler maybe? Not quite the same
4. Priestland looks to have lost form, Biggar is complete carck and Hook has been in more blind alleys than a kerb crawler.
5. Beyond Priestland there's very little creativity in the backline
6. No recognised full-back in any sort of form apart from Byrne - do we really have to go back to him?

I might be overly pessemistic but I think we're looking a bit weak right now. :-(

Apart from the fact that England have a very good record against both France and Australia, both home and away, and have even taken the odd one against the AB completely nullifying your so called 'argument', your continual use of the derogatory term 'Saes' is unecessary and has no place here.

Equs traino- Saes is derogatory term for Saxons, a people who conquered Wales and reduced them to vassal status, affected their culture, and imposed laws, outside government and our language on them!! so how would you feel ? let them have their derogatory terms, and we'll just smile knowingly and understand that they don't feel too good about us, and who can blame them.

And we beat them at Rugby as well !!

Saes isn't derogatory, it's an abbreviation of Saeson, which is Welsh for Englishmen.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Saes isn't derogatory, it's an abbreviation of Saeson, which is Welsh for Englishmen.

Pretty much all the information regarding the subject that is available tends to disagree with you. He's the only one who uses the term, it is either not widely known, or it is derogatory. If it isn't widely known, then you're pleading ignorance as a collective, are you all ignorant, or is he being derogatory? Go on, you can tell us.

I'll repeat that it's the Welsh word for Englishmen. It's a shame if saying something in Welsh is considered to be being derogatory.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I'll repeat that it's the Welsh word for Englishmen. It's a shame if saying something in Welsh is considered to be being derogatory.

To be fair when you lot say "English" its usually meant in a derogatory way

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saesneg

if you're going to be overly PC about something, at least do it properly.

It means English, its taught to young kids learning the welsh language in primary school. Saesneg is the actual word, Saes is used to to identify someone as an Englishman, wether u take offence to being English or not, well......

Some people wont use it often (like me) as I was raised predominantly speaking english, so i just say it in english, which funnily enough is actuallk "english".

some people could be offended by a strong breeze these days.

Well I can't speak for anyone else, Seabiscuit.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I'll repeat that it's the Welsh word for Englishmen. It's a shame if saying something in Welsh is considered to be being derogatory.

Isn't one of the forum rules that posts are to be in English?

What's the Welsh for Scots, Irish, French, Italian etc?

Strange how we only hear a shortened version of English in Welsh and not for other nationalities. Hmmm.

It's not the word per se, it's also how it's intended. A shortened version of Pakistani for example can be offensive.

Comfort wrote:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saesneg



It means English, its taught to young kids learning the welsh language in primary school. Saesneg is the actual word, Saes is used to to identify someone as an Englishman, wether u take offence to being English or not, well......

I'll say it again, one of the house rules is that posts must be in English. Posting anything in Welsh is, therefore, against the house rules.

End of chat.

Posting anything in Welsh is most definately against the House rules, mainly because most Welsh people don't understand it, as they mainly (90%) speak nothing but English.

Equo Troiano wrote:

Comfort wrote:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saesneg



It means English, its taught to young kids learning the welsh language in primary school. Saesneg is the actual word, Saes is used to to identify someone as an Englishman, wether u take offence to being English or not, well......

I'll say it again, one of the house rules is that posts must be in English. Posting anything in Welsh is, therefore, against the house rules.

End of chat.

That is only true if the translation is not given. It has been given hundreds of times on this forum site.

Posting in Welsh is a bit pointless as the vast majority of Welsh people wouldn't understand it either.

well, that definitely wasnt the grown up equivalent of picking up your ball and taking it home because you werent winning.

english warrior wrote:England have beaten Australia home and away in the last year what have the rest managed, diddly squat is what..

No they haven't. Last victory over Australia was 13th of November 2010, it is currently the last few days of January 2012.

english warrior wrote:Anyway keep the unfounded confidence in Wales going, because then the 'Fall' is even harder, but rest assurred we won't give you a hard time when it happens, promise!!

There is no unfounded confidence in the ability for this Six Nations, if you read anything in the press or on these boards by Welsh fans you would understand very clearly that we are all rather sceptical of our chances this year due to a number of factors, poor recent form, injured players and the prominence of our next rivals Ireland who are in fantastic form Provincially in Europe.

Comfort wrote:well, that definitely wasnt the grown up equivalent of picking up your ball and taking it home because you werent winning.

Ha ha ha...!

Is this the bickering thread or are there now two bickering threads?

maestegmafia is wumming on both so it's a bit confusing!

english warrior wrote:England have beaten Australia home and away in the last year what have the rest managed, diddly squat is what..

You need to see a Doctor as you are sufferring from a memory lapse.

THe last 6N tam win against a Tri Nations side was Ireland v Australia in the World Cup

geoff998rugby wrote:
THe last 6N tam win against a Tri Nations side was Ireland v Australia in the World Cup

That was on neutral territory and the Aussies were really awful. It doesn't really count

Anyway, back on topic...

34% say Wales to finish 4th and 606v2 group predictions are rarely wrong.

You do realise they teach Welsh in schools right ? Its a complete myth that most Welsh people don't know ANY Welsh.

And depsite England trying to keep being spoken completely for Centuries, they have failed.

"Never will it be destroyed by the wrath of man, unless the wrath of God be added, nor do I think that any other nation than this of Wales, or any other tongue, whatever may hereafter come to pass, shall on the day of the great reckoning before the Most High Judge, answer for this corner of the Earth."

Ry'n ni yma o hyd, er gwaetha pawb a phopeth

"We're still here, despite the worst of everyone and everything."

Jesus someone call up the water board and get a resevoir built opn this tiresome thread .....

Billtong

The games that include the two teams that made the last four, Wales and France, playing each other or a top three ranked team were all very close scores. When either Wales or France played the other two Six Nations Teams that made the Quarters, the wins were more convincing winning by a converted try or more.

England, Argentina and Scotland were struggling to beat each other by more than a couple of points. Scotland didn't reach the quarters Argentina lost to NZ, England lost to France.

That as well as the fact France and Wales both beat their Six Nations rivals to reach the semi finals is the reason so many people see Wales and France as likely to be the better teams in the six nations of 2012.

Many people are tiping Wales to win because France struggled to beat Wales in the semis even though Wales had their captain the excellent Warburton red carded early in the first half.



Irish provincial sides have been brilliant in the HEC. Putting huge scores on famous former HEC legends like Leicester and Northampton, three of their for sides are in the Quarters, the highest representation of any participating nation, considering both France and Engkand have a lot more teams and wealth at their disposal for the HEC than Ireland then this is quite some achievement.

England have a new coach to rectify the turmoil in the aftermath of the RWC. No one really knows much about him, he has no track record of success as a coach. Has not head coached a premiership team or any international team, has not been the coach responsible for any success other than with the England Saxons. Their reserve team.

munkian wrote:You do realise they teach Welsh in schools right ? Its a complete myth that most Welsh people don't know ANY Welsh.

And depsite England trying to keep being spoken completely for Centuries, they have failed.

"Never will it be destroyed by the wrath of man, unless the wrath of God be added, nor do I think that any other nation than this of Wales, or any other tongue, whatever may hereafter come to pass, shall on the day of the great reckoning before the Most High Judge, answer for this corner of the Earth."

Ry'n ni yma o hyd, er gwaetha pawb a phopeth

"We're still here, despite the worst of everyone and everything."

Like an irritating rash really.

Back on topic, I have Wales to finish 3rd, ahaead of England, if the collective here is usually right then i may need to revise my wager at the local pub.

maestegmafia wrote:The games that include the two teams that made the last four, Wales and France, playing each other or a top three ranked team were all very close scores. When either Wales or France played the other two Six Nations Teams that made the Quarters, the wins were more convincing winning by a converted try or more.

England, Argentina and Scotland were struggling to beat each other by more than a couple of points. Scotland didn't reach the quarters Argentina lost to NZ, England lost to France.

That as well as the fact France and Wales both beat their Six Nations rivals to reach the semi finals is the reason so many people see Wales and France as likely to be the better teams in the six nations of 2012.

Many people are tiping Wales to win because France struggled to beat Wales in the semis even though Wales had their captain the excellent Warburton red carded early in the first half.



Irish provincial sides have been brilliant in the HEC. Putting huge scores on famous former HEC legends like Leicester and Northampton, three of their for sides are in the Quarters, the highest representation of any participating nation, considering both France and Engkand have a lot more teams and wealth at their disposal for the HEC than Ireland then this is quite some achievement.

England have a new coach to rectify the turmoil in the aftermath of the RWC. No one really knows much about him, he has no track record of success as a coach. Has not head coached a premiership team or any international team, has not been the coach responsible for any success other than with the England Saxons. Their reserve team.

Wales to finish 4th then, yeah?

I actually dont have a clue who'll come out on top between Ireland/Wales/England, probably looking at a joint 2/3/4th again seperated by points difference.

France look likely to take the championship to me, very strong group of players, and the coaching/mentality was the weak link previously. With PSA there, I dont think that will be so much of a problem.

Seriously exciting squad aswell.

I was very hopeful before the rash of welsh injuries.

as far as referring to welsh "like an irritating rash really" - im pretty sure thats xenophobia, which is certainly against house rules

Equo Troiano wrote:

munkian wrote:Ry'n ni yma o hyd, er gwaetha pawb a phopeth

"We're still here, despite the worst of everyone and everything."

Like an irritating rash really.

So you whinge when a Welshman uses a Welsh word, then you compare an entire nation to an irritating rash. You sound like a smashing bloke.

Comfort wrote:I actually dont have a clue who'll come out on top between Ireland/Wales/England, probably looking at a joint 2/3/4th again seperated by points difference.

France look likely to take the championship to me, very strong group of players, and the coaching/mentality was the weak link previously. With PSA there, I dont think that will be so much of a problem.

Seriously exciting squad aswell.

I was very hopeful before the rash of welsh injuries.

as far as referring to welsh "like an irritating rash really" - im pretty sure thats xenophobia, which is certainly against house rules

But you've just described the Welsh injuries as 'a rash'...

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

munkian wrote:Ry'n ni yma o hyd, er gwaetha pawb a phopeth

"We're still here, despite the worst of everyone and everything."

Like an irritating rash really.

..... You sound like a smashing bloke.

Thanks, its nice of you to recognise the fact.

blwydi saes

maestegmafia wrote:Billtong

The games that include the two teams that made the last four, Wales and France, playing each other or a top three ranked team were all very close scores. When either Wales or France played the other two Six Nations Teams that made the Quarters, the wins were more convincing winning by a converted try or more.

England, Argentina and Scotland were struggling to beat each other by more than a couple of points. Scotland didn't reach the quarters Argentina lost to NZ, England lost to France.

That as well as the fact France and Wales both beat their Six Nations rivals to reach the semi finals is the reason so many people see Wales and France as likely to be the better teams in the six nations of 2012.

Many people are tiping Wales to win because France struggled to beat Wales in the semis even though Wales had their captain the excellent Warburton red carded early in the first half.



Irish provincial sides have been brilliant in the HEC. Putting huge scores on famous former HEC legends like Leicester and Northampton, three of their for sides are in the Quarters, the highest representation of any participating nation, considering both France and Engkand have a lot more teams and wealth at their disposal for the HEC than Ireland then this is quite some achievement.

England have a new coach to rectify the turmoil in the aftermath of the RWC. No one really knows much about him, he has no track record of success as a coach. Has not head coached a premiership team or any international team, has not been the coach responsible for any success other than with the England Saxons. Their reserve team.

Maesteg, true the semi finals were close run matches, but then they are rarely run away games, teams tend to play lower risk game plans as there is more to lose.

England struggled in the world cup as much as France who were irratic to say the least. However they won their crucnh games, even whilst not in top form.

Wales on the other hand excelled above their usual performances they muster during the World Cup. Yes agrred they were on form, but yet the tough close matches they lost.

Against SA and France they could have won both of those matches, for different reasons they didn't.

The reason why I beleive Ireland will win their opening game against Wales is due to two factors, injuries on the welsh side at pivotal positions and becuase Ireland will be at home in front of a partisan crowd.

You'd have to make Ireland favourites, Biltong. If Wales are to win we'll have to produce a great performance. If we're not at the races we could get quite a beating. Let's not forget the hiding they handed out to England in last year's tournament.

Yes, the thing with Ireland is they have become formidable at home in the last number of years. with a 75% win ratio at home in the six nations since 2004.

biltongbek wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Billtong

The games that include the two teams that made the last four, Wales and France, playing each other or a top three ranked team were all very close scores. When either Wales or France played the other two Six Nations Teams that made the Quarters, the wins were more convincing winning by a converted try or more.

England, Argentina and Scotland were struggling to beat each other by more than a couple of points. Scotland didn't reach the quarters Argentina lost to NZ, England lost to France.

That as well as the fact France and Wales both beat their Six Nations rivals to reach the semi finals is the reason so many people see Wales and France as likely to be the better teams in the six nations of 2012.

Many people are tiping Wales to win because France struggled to beat Wales in the semis even though Wales had their captain the excellent Warburton red carded early in the first half.



Irish provincial sides have been brilliant in the HEC. Putting huge scores on famous former HEC legends like Leicester and Northampton, three of their for sides are in the Quarters, the highest representation of any participating nation, considering both France and Engkand have a lot more teams and wealth at their disposal for the HEC than Ireland then this is quite some achievement.

England have a new coach to rectify the turmoil in the aftermath of the RWC. No one really knows much about him, he has no track record of success as a coach. Has not head coached a premiership team or any international team, has not been the coach responsible for any success other than with the England Saxons. Their reserve team.

Maesteg, true the semi finals were close run matches, but then they are rarely run away games, teams tend to play lower risk game plans as there is more to lose.

England struggled in the world cup as much as France who were irratic to say the least. However they won their crucnh games, even whilst not in top form.

Wales on the other hand excelled above their usual performances they muster during the World Cup. Yes agrred they were on form, but yet the tough close matches they lost.

Against SA and France they could have won both of those matches, for different reasons they didn't.

The reason why I beleive Ireland will win their opening game against Wales is due to two factors, injuries on the welsh side at pivotal positions and becuase Ireland will be at home in front of a partisan crowd.

England lost their most crucial crunch game. Le Crunch with le French mate...! On the same day as Wales were winning their Crunch game against the Irish by an even more convincing margin than the french beat the English.

I agree with you that Ireland should win their opening match against Wales and not just for the reasons you stated but also and possibly more importantly, because the Irish players are playing superb rugby for their provincial teams. A real pleasure to watch and an intimidating site if your first Six Nations match is against those lads in Dublin.

I still stand by my predictions of either France or Wales picking up the 6N but no GS. Ireland third.

Equo Troiano wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Saes isn't derogatory, it's an abbreviation of Saeson, which is Welsh for Englishmen.

Pretty much all the information regarding the subject that is available tends to disagree with you. He's the only one who uses the term, it is either not widely known, or it is derogatory. If it isn't widely known, then you're pleading ignorance as a collective, are you all ignorant, or is he being derogatory? Go on, you can tell us.

Ah I see the pre tournament influx of new posters with little knowledge has started, same old ignorance and bigotry. Saes is the literal translation of the word Englishman. It is not shortened it is not derogatory unless you object to the word Englander from a german or Angleterre from a frenchman. Welsh has official status in the UK as a language. Welsh is my first language along with 25% of the population(600.000) so I am perfectly entitled to use the word Saes. As for teh house rules, well given your moniker is in latin (although a better translation would be Equus Trioianus) I think complaining about the use of other languages is a bit rich really.

As for describing the welsh as a rash that is a clear breach of House rules. You are either ignorant or a deliberate wum, If the latter then I would suggest you confine taht to the bickering thread if the former I suggest you try listening and learning. Ignorance is forgivable, Stupidity is not.