vitali vs haye afterall???

i've read that haye might be facing vitali first afterall, with wlad still not recovered from his stomach injury

http://www.sportinglife.com/boxing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=boxing/11/03/21/manual_210627.html&BID=543

i think most people would see this as a much tougher fight than it would be with wlad- and would be an embarressment to haye after saying how he's going to knock both brothers and unify the belts if he was to lose the first fight. with it been written into the new contract that haye could fight either brother, i wonder if this is a trick played by the k bros to embrass haye after all whats gone on between them- after all wlad himself admitted that vitali is much stronger.

eddyfightfan wrote:i've read that haye might be facing vitali first afterall, with wlad still not recovered from his stomach injury

http://www.sportinglife.com/boxing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=boxing/11/03/21/manual_210627.html&BID=543

i think most people would see this as a much tougher fight than it would be with wlad- and would be an embarressment to haye after saying how he's going to knock both brothers and unify the belts if he was to lose the first fight. with it been written into the new contract that haye could fight either brother, i wonder if this is a trick played by the k bros to embrass haye after all whats gone on between them- after all wlad himself admitted that vitali is much stronger.

Wlad was saying that tongue in cheek. But I think its an easier fight for Haye to take on Vit. Vit is slower, more ponderous and ready made for Haye. People seem to think Vit is the same animal who fought Lewis and gave him nightmares. He isn't. This is a slower version with a pawing jab.

fair point but i think vitali will have to much for haye- i dont think one punch will stop vitali, which he would be depending on against wlad- also i dont think he will give haye the time what wlad would

But Haye doesn't have much chance of knocking Vitali out which is the main stumbling block and Vitali is more likely to go gung ho which could spell trouble for Haye.

eddyfightfan wrote:fair point but i think vitali will have to much for haye- i dont think one punch will stop vitali, which he would be depending on against wlad- also i dont think he will give haye the time what wlad would

I dont think Vit is fast enough to hit Haye cleanly, even with Haye's dodgy defense. No boxer is impervious to punches. Vit is getting older. His punch resistance will not be as good as it was 10 years ago.

Nothing suggests his punch resistance has dwindled since then, he may not have the speed of Haye but he'll be willing to walk through Haye to get his power shots off.

imperialghosty wrote:But Haye doesn't have much chance of knocking Vitali out which is the main stumbling block and Vitali is more likely to go gung ho which could spell trouble for Haye.

Its never Vit's style to go gung ho. Haye wont KO him but will win by a clear UD (or get blatantly robbed).

imperialghosty wrote:Nothing suggests his punch resistance has dwindled since then, he may not have the speed of Haye but he'll be willing to walk through Haye to get his power shots off.

Thats because he hasn't taken a punch since Lewis. Both K's fight within their comfort zones dictating the pace. If Vit goes gung ho, he will tire and be ripe for heavy shots.

Personally don't think he gets the decision over either

imperialghosty wrote:Personally don't think he gets the decision over either

That's why I included blatently robbed.

he mite not be able to hit haye for a 4-5 rounds but later on he will land and he will KO haye

imperialghosty wrote:Personally don't think he gets the decision over either

i think it's 50/50 with wlad, however if he loses to vitalia first i doubt we'll ever see

eddyfightfan wrote:he mite not be able to hit haye for a 4-5 rounds but later on he will land and he will KO haye

That is an issue for Haye. But, Vit always dictates the pace of any fight (Lewis the exception). Haye will take him out of his confort zone. You get tired hitting thin air which is what Vit will be doing against Haye. Wlad is far quicker than Vit and imo would KO Haye.

After the solis fight, Ive changed my view on who would be the easier Rotherham. Vitali looks the easier option at this time. Wlad has improved since his last loss while vitali has deteriorated from the lewis fight. Solis
landed some good shots in the opening round and vitali connected with nothing. Considering solis' poor footwork compared to haye, haye should be hit even less. Haye is faster and a harder hitter than solis. Vitali may have a granite chin, but it can still be chipped away at. Vitalis defence looks very poor, as does his Jab and speed. If haye landes combinations of heavy power punches I'm sure he can rock vitali.

Wladamir still has his main weapon, the jab. It's quick, strong and has genuine KO power. Wlads chin may be suspect, but he makes up for it with great technical ability. He doesn't get caught as often as big brother and also throws more. Haye could get a late stoppage or UD, maybe even cuts, vitali marks up easily. Everyone raves about the k bros stamina, but if haye cam disrupt their pace and get them out of their comfort zone(which rarely happens) I do doubt a 40 year old vitali can keep up.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:After the solis fight, Ive changed my view on who would be the easier Rotherham. Vitali looks the easier option at this time. Wlad has improved since his last loss while vitali has deteriorated from the lewis fight. Solis
landed some good shots in the opening round and vitali connected with nothing. Considering solis' poor footwork compared to haye, haye should be hit even less. Haye is faster and a harder hitter than solis. Vitali may have a granite chin, but it can still be chipped away at. Vitalis defence looks very poor, as does his Jab and speed. If haye landes combinations of heavy power punches I'm sure he can rock vitali.

Wladamir still has his main weapon, the jab. It's quick, strong and has genuine KO power. Wlads chin may be suspect, but he makes up for it with great technical ability. He doesn't get caught as often as big brother and also throws more. Haye could get a late stoppage or UD, maybe even cuts, vitali marks up easily. Everyone raves about the k bros stamina, but if haye cam disrupt their pace and get them out of their comfort zone(which rarely happens) I do doubt a 40 year old vitali can keep up.

Absolutely spot on and well put.

The Klits are great athletes but have been very rarely pushed the 12 round distance in a high tempo fight. Haye needs to come in at a lightweight to be as quick as possible. I do agree with what seems to be the general consensus that Wlad would be an easier fight for Hayemaker than Vit. Wlad has a glass chin and his jab is not as good a Wlads but if Haye can stopp either one usig their jabs and manage to rough them up he's really got to work the body. The Klit's have not fought a fighter that has as good a chance as Hayemaker since Vit fought Lewis.

prettyboy1304 wrote:The Klits are great athletes but have been very rarely pushed the 12 round distance in a high tempo fight. Haye needs to come in at a lightweight to be as quick as possible. I do agree with what seems to be the general consensus that Wlad would be an easier fight for Hayemaker than Vit. Wlad has a glass chin and his jab is not as good a Wlads but if Haye can stopp either one usig their jabs and manage to rough them up he's really got to work the body. The Klit's have not fought a fighter that has as good a chance as Hayemaker since Vit fought Lewis.

Haye desn't fight at a fast pace either. I disagree with the general concensus in that I think Vit would be easier for Haye. Also I presume you mean that Vit has a better jab than Wlad. If so, I also disagree. Vit's jab is now a pawing weapon. Almost pushed out by accident rather than by design. Both Wlad and haye's chin are not the strongest areas of their game.

But haye will not allow Vit to dictate the pace. He will make Vit think and chase him around. Something Vit doesn't appear too good at nowadays. A come forward tough man like Briggs would always make Vit look better than he is. Ditto a face first guy like Peters. But someone not getting hit would tire Vit out and make him ripe for the taking. Of course Haye's chin has to be tested at some point.

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:The Klits are great athletes but have been very rarely pushed the 12 round distance in a high tempo fight. Haye needs to come in at a lightweight to be as quick as possible. I do agree with what seems to be the general consensus that Wlad would be an easier fight for Hayemaker than Vit. Wlad has a glass chin and his jab is not as good a Vits but if Haye can stop either one usig their jabs and manage to rough them up he's really got to work the body. The Klit's have not fought a fighter that has as good a chance as Hayemaker since Vit fought Lewis.

Haye desn't fight at a fast pace either. I disagree with the general concensus in that I think Vit would be easier for Haye. Also I presume you mean that Vit has a better jab than Wlad. If so, I also disagree. Vit's jab is now a pawing weapon. Almost pushed out by accident rather than by design. Both Wlad and haye's chin are not the strongest areas of their game.

But haye will not allow Vit to dictate the pace. He will make Vit think and chase him around. Something Vit doesn't appear too good at nowadays. A come forward tough man like Briggs would always make Vit look better than he is. Ditto a face first guy like Peters. But someone not getting hit would tire Vit out and make him ripe for the taking. Of course Haye's chin has to be tested at some point.

I know Haye doesn't normally fight at a fast pace but think he might need to for this fight don't think the sort of tactics he used against Valuev would work against either brother think they would just manage to nick more rounds something Valuev wasn't capable of. The main problem is Hayes chin just not to sure he can take a good shot because if he's going to win he's going to need to at some point.

haye would need to take the fight to vitali to win, i doubt he can win by KO. this is not his style, he likes to have space and time and pick his shots and land with the big punchs, which won't happen with vitali. vitali will walk him down throw combinations and put pressure on him all night long, and if haye gets caughts with his hands down by a few solid shots, its over.

im not saying the win for haye is impossible, if he does fight wlad and goes in a vitali fight with the behind him who knows- but it will take a performance from haye a class above what we've ever seen from him

eddyfightfan wrote:haye would need to take the fight to vitali to win, i doubt he can win by KO. this is not his style, he likes to have space and time and pick his shots and land with the big punchs, which won't happen with vitali. vitali will walk him down throw combinations and put pressure on him all night long, and if haye gets caughts with his hands down by a few solid shots, its over.

im not saying the win for haye is impossible, if he does fight wlad and goes in a vitali fight with the behind him who knows- but it will take a performance from haye a class above what we've ever seen from him

Precisely. Vit will try and walk him down and hit thin air. His punches are now very slow. He also holds his hands down using his height and reach to dictate the pace and space. Haye's speed here is crucial. Haye may not knock him down but no-one likes to get hit and Haye will hit him often. Probably win on cuts.

I don't know how Vitali's managed this reputation as some sort of un-knock-outable machine. Nobody is impervious to being knocked out. Chuvalo was stopped early against Frazier and Foreman and I don't think Vitali is as tough as Chuvalo.

hayes speed will deminish through the fight, and vitali will catch him eventually, he throws from good angles and cuts of the ring well, perhaps cuts will play a part but when was the last time vitali was stopped from a cut since lewis (who punches one hell of a lot harder than haye does i imagine)?

eddyfightfan wrote:hayes speed will deminish through the fight, and vitali will catch him eventually, he throws from good angles and cuts of the ring well, perhaps cuts will play a part but when was the last time vitali was stopped from a cut since lewis (who punches one hell of a lot harder than haye does i imagine)?

So will whatever speed Vit has left. Vit has to carry that frame around and carry it out of him comfort zone. Something he is not used to doing. His punches are now very slow. He may look good against the plodders like Peters of this world and Briggs. But against a live opponent his shortcommings will be exposed. The Lewis fight made him look better than he actually is.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I don't know how Vitali's managed this reputation as some sort of un-knock-outable machine. Nobody is impervious to being knocked out. Chuvalo was stopped early against Frazier and Foreman and I don't think Vitali is as tough as Chuvalo.

i dont think haye is as tough as frazier and foreman either

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I don't know how Vitali's managed this reputation as some sort of un-knock-outable machine. Nobody is impervious to being knocked out. Chuvalo was stopped early against Frazier and Foreman and I don't think Vitali is as tough as Chuvalo.

Chuvalo never hit the canvas, but I agree. Catch anyone right and they go.

eddyfightfan wrote:hayes speed will deminish through the fight

As opposed to Vitali's speed, which has never been there in the first place? Vitali is certainly the more winnable fight for Haye as far as I'm concerned. Wladimir has developed in to the more complete fighter since working with Steward and his form (and opposition) has been better than Vitali's in recent years, too.

granted fighting the opposition that he has of late hasn't been much of a challenge but i think the lewis fight showed he can mix it up at that level when needed. good to have a heavyweight that is actualyly going to be competitive (hopefully)

88Chris05 wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:hayes speed will deminish through the fight

As opposed to Vitali's speed, which has never been there in the first place? Vitali is certainly the more winnable fight for Haye as far as I'm concerned. Wladimir has developed in to the more complete fighter since working with Steward and his form (and opposition) has been better than Vitali's in recent years, too.

Spot on.

So Wlad has gone from fighting 3 in under 6 months to fighting none.

Wlad don't try to duck out of this fight.

D4thincarnation wrote:So Wlad has gone from fighting 3 in under 6 months to fighting none.

Wlad don't try to duck out of this fight.

Duck duck duck. What if he really is injured?

unlikely in my opinion. seems like they wana give haye some of his own medicine and mess up his "legacy"

eddyfightfan wrote:unlikely in my opinion. seems like they wana give haye some of his own medicine and mess up his "legacy"

They've both been playing games trying to get the best deal for themselves.

Wlad aint injured, he has lost his bottle.

Ironically, Vitali is the easier fight for Haye.

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:So Wlad has gone from fighting 3 in under 6 months to fighting none.

Wlad don't try to duck out of this fight.

Duck duck duck. What if he really is injured?

You mean his back injury.... err I mean abdominal injury, 3 day before the Chisora fight? What was he doing? Then less than two weeks later, he takes part in a golf tournament. Yeah that doesn't put a strain on your abs.

Then he say he can fight 3 times in 6 months, then if he fights none, I think we can plainly see it is a duck.

I not a big fan of people saying one thing and doing another, and thats clearly what Wlad is doing if he doesn't fight Haye this summer.

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:So Wlad has gone from fighting 3 in under 6 months to fighting none.

Wlad don't try to duck out of this fight.

Duck duck duck. What if he really is injured?

You mean his back injury.... err I mean abdominal injury, 3 day before the Chisora fight? What was he doing? Then less than two weeks later, he takes part in a golf tournament. Yeah that doesn't put a strain on your abs.

Then he say he can fight 3 times in 6 months, then if he fights none, I think we can plainly see it is a duck.

I not a big fan of people saying one thing and doing another, and thats clearly what Wlad is doing if he doesn't fight Haye this summer.

So now he's ducking Chisora? I think I've heard it all now.

Now the bold part I find hilarious.

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:So Wlad has gone from fighting 3 in under 6 months to fighting none.

Wlad don't try to duck out of this fight.

Duck duck duck. What if he really is injured?

You mean his back injury.... err I mean abdominal injury, 3 day before the Chisora fight? What was he doing? Then less than two weeks later, he takes part in a golf tournament. Yeah that doesn't put a strain on your abs.

Then he say he can fight 3 times in 6 months, then if he fights none, I think we can plainly see it is a duck.

I not a big fan of people saying one thing and doing another, and thats clearly what Wlad is doing if he doesn't fight Haye this summer.

So now he's ducking Chisora? I think I've heard it all now.

Now the bold part I find hilarious.

Why would Wlad duck Chisora ? I believe he was injured and it probably hadn't properly clearded but he could have fought Chisora but put it off because of how much more he will earn out the Haye fight. I think it will be Wlad to face Haye their just playing mind games with Haye hoping to upset him at the start of his training camp.

If Haye connects flush shots on Vitali, I have a feeling he will go down. He just hasn't been fully tested due to his defensive nature. As Wlad's defense improved over the years he has emulated the success Vitali has been having all along when it comes to taking very little damage. I really don't think that there is as huge a difference in their durability as people have come to believe.

I think the main difference between the brothers is that Vitali seems to be much more tough mentally and has a more aggressive attitude. It's not just apparent in the way he fights. You see it in the little things. On Saturday he looked pretty damn aggressive when Solis was struggling to get up. When he fought Lennox and they fell to the floor I seem to recall him trying to kick Lennox in frustration. He doesn't seem nearly as 'warm and friendly' in interviews as Wlad even if you take into consideration that his English isn't as good.

Despite this, I reckon Haye will have his number. Ok, Vitali took some great shots from lennox in 2003, but may have eventually been KOed in that fight (if the eye wasn't damaged).

Not too long after he looked as vulnerable as Wlad when Sanders got a couple of shots off on him in the opening round of their fight.

And if he does win against Vitali then Wlad will have an even greater mental hurdle to overcome when it's his turn to fight.

Benelio wrote:If Haye connects flush shots on Vitali, I have a feeling he will go down. He just hasn't been fully tested due to his defensive nature. As Wlad's defense improved over the years he has emulated the success Vitali has been having all along when it comes to taking very little damage. I really don't think that there is as huge a difference in their durability as people have come to believe.

I think the main difference between the brothers is that Vitali seems to be much more tough mentally and has a more aggressive attitude. It's not just apparent in the way he fights. You see it in the little things. On Saturday he looked pretty damn aggressive when Solis was struggling to get up. When he fought Lennox and they fell to the floor I seem to recall him trying to kick Lennox in frustration. He doesn't seem nearly as 'warm and friendly' in interviews as Wlad even if you take into consideration that his English isn't as good.

Despite this, I reckon Haye will have his number. Ok, Vitali took some great shots from lennox in 2003, but may have eventually been KOed in that fight (if the eye wasn't damaged).

Not too long after he looked as vulnerable as Wlad when Sanders got a couple of shots off on him in the opening round of their fight.

And if he does win against Vitali then Wlad will have an even greater mental hurdle to overcome when it's his turn to fight.

That's my take also. No-one is impervious to heavy shots and Haye can land them against Vitali. Vit has slowed a lot since Hide and Lennox. He gets hit often and eventually they will take his toll. Even if he lasts and doesn;t get cut, he will tire faster than Haye due to the bulk and not fighting at HIS pace.

Vitali is clearly declining and Haye might get him at the right time. He still hits very hard and has an excellent chin. But his slow and ponderous; plus being very easy to hit.

If you compare his movement and punch variety from the Peter fight with the Briggs fight, for example; there has been a clear slowing of both his hands and reflexes. A few years back he would have got Briggs out of there; but couldn't summon enough gusto to finish him off.

But to win, Haye would have to set a fast pace and uses his reflexes and footwork to make Vitali. Although the older man is declining, he still needs to be respected and Haye would need to go into the fight with avery clear plan.

Yeah, Haye setting a high tempo against Vitali is a great idea, especially as Haye has very dodgy stamina and Vitali is quite capable of throwing 1000 punches in a fight!

I can't see how Haye is going to outbox Vitali, he barely outboxed Valuev who has no skills, no speed, no power - albeit he has 3 inches in height over Vitali but that doesn't make up for the fact he is worse in every single area.

Vitali is aging though. He could quite easily decline over night. Inactivity at his age will hurt him and with every passing month, this becomes more of an advantage to Haye.

I'm not saying Haye will win, but he might just be getting Vitali at exactly the right time.

wow_junky wrote:Yeah, Haye setting a high tempo against Vitali is a great idea, especially as Haye has very dodgy stamina and Vitali is quite capable of throwing 1000 punches in a fight!

I can't see how Haye is going to outbox Vitali, he barely outboxed Valuev who has no skills, no speed, no power - albeit he has 3 inches in height over Vitali but that doesn't make up for the fact he is worse in every single area.

When was the last time Vitali threw a thousand punches in a fight?

BALTIMORA wrote:

wow_junky wrote:Yeah, Haye setting a high tempo against Vitali is a great idea, especially as Haye has very dodgy stamina and Vitali is quite capable of throwing 1000 punches in a fight!

I can't see how Haye is going to outbox Vitali, he barely outboxed Valuev who has no skills, no speed, no power - albeit he has 3 inches in height over Vitali but that doesn't make up for the fact he is worse in every single area.

When was the last time Vitali threw a thousand punches in a fight?

He threw 80 a round against Arreola over 10 rounds, and 800 against a Briggs over 12 rounds. Not quite 1000, but not far off. Put it this way - he's far more proven to be an active 12 round fighter than Haye is.

Still not a thousand, although you're right it's not far off. How many of those landed though, and how mobile were those opponents?

He landed between 30% and 40% against both guys I think

But as I said, Vitali has proven himself as a good high volume fighter, Haye has not. Against a bigger but far, far worse fighter than Vitali he threw 150 punches in the entire fight

That's another factor though-Vitali has the luxury of usually being bigger than his opponents. He's never neeved to employ the same kind of tactics as Haye used against Valuev. There's lots of arguments to be made, and while I'm not convinced of a Haye victory, I'd certainly say he has the tools to put Vitali on his bum.

Balti,

Who is the harder puncher, Lewis or Haye?

Edit -

And throw Arreola, Peter and Briggs in there too. Rank them in order of punch power.

It's not simply about being able to throw a hard punch though, is it? If you're unable to create the opportunity or the angle to throw a punch to maximum effectiveness then you may as well not bother. I'm not saying Haye can definitely beat either Klitbot, but I AM optimistic that he will offer a different challenge to the likes of Arreola or Briggs.

Of course he will pose a challenge, he has speed and angles, something Vitali hasn't seen for a while, but if a slugging Lewis couldn't put Vitali down I just can't see how Haye will - especially when you consider that Haye only created ONE opportunity to hurt Valuev properly in their fight and couldn't capitalise

wow_junky wrote:Balti,

Who is the harder puncher, Lewis or Haye?

Edit -

And throw Arreola, Peter and Briggs in there too. Rank them in order of punch power.

Difficult to say, as punch power is as much about timing and accuracy as anything else. Briggs, Peter and Arreola barely landed anything clean, let alone anything that could potentially have troubled Vitali. If you gave them a heavy bag and said 'here, hit this' then maybe Arreola/Peter/Briggs hit harder than Haye (although not necessarily). in real terms, however, Haye is the puncher out of those 3.

Vitali is proven to be able to box until the later rounds quite easily when he's fighting a guy who is maybe 40lbs overweight, and seemingly unable to move out of the way of any of his shots (Peter/Arreola) or a fading 40-odd year old who has never been famed for his impressive workrate at any point in his career, and who also seems unable to avoid/parry/block any punches (Briggs).

It is impossible to gauge Vitali's endurance/punch resistance right now as neither of them have been tested in about 7 years. Being hit takes it out of you, punching and missing takes it out of you, chasing a fighter around the ring takes it out of you. Seeing as Vitali hasn't done any of these since his early 30's it is impossible to say with any certainty how he will cope with Haye