Is the Ireland backrow better balanced now?

Seems strange one to ask given what an outstanding player SOB is but, does Peter O Mahoney make the irish back row better balanced?
I know he is not a "natural" seven but seems to play closer to the contact in defence than SOB, doing the unseen work that makes all the difference in slowing / turning opposition ball.

Also, there is now a genuine 7 in Jennings is on the bench if required.

As a scotsman i feel even worse about this match than i did already. if ireland get scrum dominance, as i suspect they will reasonably early on, and their lineout wins its fair share then i think the back row will give us a really hard time. Reddan should feed Sexton better ball and the Irish backs may at last be able to cut loose.

Any thoughts?

Just no

What is the value of "unseen" work? If it isn't seen, given the number of cameras and super slo-mo replays in HD nowadays, then it isn't happening. If say McCaw was doing "unseen" work then no-one would know him or the work that he does.

So is the Ireland backrow better balanced? Who knows? O'Mahoney is a good player but untried at Test level, and more importantly unproven in how he executes Deccie's commands. Kidney rules with a rod of iron and beware the player who makes his own decisions.

Scotland should be looking to win this one comfortably. They should have total dominance in the line out, at least parity in the scrums, and if their scrum half gets front foot ball, de Luca and Co should make headway.

Expect the Scottish try count to rise even further. I'd wager they'll have at least two more on the board by Saturday tea-time. Andy Robinson will be sipping Black Velvets with his dinner.

O'Brien is a phenomenal player, but he ain't a 7, and Ferris is just too good and too on-form not to be picked right now. They are very similar types of players, which I think at times leaves Ireland wanting for an out-and-out openside against teams who have one (McCaw, Pocock, Warburton, Rennie etc etc).

As for O'Mahoney, I haven't seen enough of him to comment, but if he's more of a genuine 7 then surely the answer to your question is yes.

GA

The "unseen" stuff i was referring to includes: getting hands on the ball at the bottom of a ruck to give your defence a few more seconds to organise, coming into the ruck marginally offside enabling you to distupt the bridging attacking player, slowing down their ball and perhaps creating a turnover or getting your body under a tackled player to create a maul instead of a ruck.

None of these skills are flash and are often not talked about by the commentators but can often be the margin between winning and losing.
In McCaw's case in the world cup final it also included kneeing Parra in the head "accidentally" eventually leading to his departure from the field.
Although ironically this piece of thuggery meant tha Trin Duch came on earlier and almost turned the game for France.

I think it's hard to say really. O'Brien had his best game in the 6 Nations against France I thought.

Personally I would've loved to see Ferris, POM, SOB with Heaslip on the bench for this game.

One thing we know that O'Mahoney will bring is a very very raw aggression to the breakdown. This was a bit of a hindrance at the beginning of the season when he was giving away quite a few penalties but he seems to have gotten the balance between aggression and discipline just right lately.

He's a very mobile backrow and is exceptional in the lineout (we'll need all help we can get there). He'll hit more rucks than O'Brien will generally so this should free up Ferris a little bit more.

I'm excited to see how he gets on but worried in equal measures that he'll put his head in places that a head should never go and get himself stretchered off.

We'll see on Saturday.

Not a strange question at all.

Although having seen all of the above players in the Robocop, I would actually be more worried if Jennings was playing rather than POM.

POM is more a natural 7 than SOB but SOB has played very well in that position and will be a huge loss for Ireland.

POM wont weaken the side in any way shape or form but the loss of POC is critical. Scotlands lineout is very good and Ireland were always going to struggle but without POC Ireland will be smashed there.

Close game i feel but a very open one at the same time. Should be a cracking match.

There is always a lot of talk about the lack of balance in the Irish backrow, but on another thread I noticed a few comments referring to the fact that the stats actually tell a very different story - the lack of a 7 is not having any noticeable impact on Ireland obtaining turnovers, for example

Exactly AsBo, alot of grief has been directed at SOB for not being a 'natural' 7 but he has done a tremendous job there.

No its the same and the same as it was when Wallace was at 7 too.

O'Brien has become a victim of his own success and publicity. He's been built up and now people want to knock him down.

If he doesn't make half a dozen line breaks a game people say he had a quiet game and should play 6. If he makes a load of line breaks but isn't first to every breakdown and we get turned over people say he can't play 7.

The reality is that he can play 6,7 and 8 to a very high level and he is an exeptional player. He can win the ball on the deck and he can carry exceptionally well, when he gets quality ball, but he can't do both at the same time.

It was the same with Ferris in 2009, people where asking why he wasn't making the carries for Ireland then way he was for Ulster.

Most of it is just lazy journalism and media spin. Ireland backrow is exceptionally strong and balanced and statistically have the most turnovers in the competition.

Most of the criticism comes from two games against Wales were our midfield was battered and we were on the back foot for most of the game.

If any player is not pulling their weight in Irelands back row it is Heaslip not O'Brien, who has been very impressive despite being overshadowed a bit by Ferris recently.

I wouldn't say O'Brien has done a bad job at 7, far from it. But you don't want a man of his size scrapping around at the bottom of rucks. You want him running full tilt into the opposition, picking up the ball at the base of the scrum and being a general all round wrecking ball.

7 is a waste of SOB's talents.

roddersm wrote:No its the same and the same as it was when Wallace was at 7 too.

O'Brien has become a victim of his own success and publicity. He's been built up and now people want to knock him down.

If he doesn't make half a dozen line breaks a game people say he had a quiet game and should play 6. If he makes a load of line breaks but isn't first to every breakdown and we get turned over people say he can't play 7.

The reality is that he can play 6,7 and 8 to a very high level and he is an exeptional player. He can win the ball on the deck and he can carry exceptionally well, when he gets quality ball, but he can't do both at the same time.

It was the same with Ferris in 2009, people where asking why he wasn't making the carries for Ireland then way he was for Ulster.

Most of it is just lazy journalism and media spin. Ireland backrow is exceptionally strong and balanced and statistically have the most turnovers in the competition.

Most of the criticism comes from two games against Wales were our midfield was battered and we were on the back foot for most of the game.

If any player is not pulling their weight in Irelands back row it is Heaslip not O'Brien, who has been very impressive despite being overshadowed a bit by Ferris recently.

rodders, agreed, that's how I see it - Heaslip on current form is the weakest link, but that's only in a relative sense!

I would say our turnover count is misleading given that a large number of them will have come as a result of the choke tackle tactic.

I do agree with what people are saying though, O'Brien is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

My biggest criticism of O'Brien is that he lacks the experience at 7 to know when to leave the ball alone and when to compete. I don't know the statistic but I'd imagine he's close to the top of our "number of penalties conceeded" list.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I wouldn't say O'Brien has done a bad job at 7, far from it. But you don't want a man of his size scrapping around at the bottom of rucks. You want him running full tilt into the opposition, picking up the ball at the base of the scrum and being a general all round wrecking ball.

7 is a waste of SOB's talents.

Probably true but the same is true of Ferris, you want him carrying ball. They are different players, Ferris bigger and stronger and better at taking contact and doing donkey work. O'Brien better at hitting gaps and taking the ball at pace. Both fearsome carriers.

They both can't play 6 and SOB is better suited to 7 as he is smaller and a bit more skillful a footballer. Ferris is bigger and better in the lineout.

I wouldn't mind seeing SOB at 8 again. Heaslip has been way below par for nearly 2 seasons.

To answer the OP's question - I have no idea!!!

POM has about 30 mins of test rugby behind him so its impossible to say if the backrow will be better balanced or not until we actually see what he does on Saturday. In Rennie and Denton he is up against the 2 players that I consider to be the players of the tournament to date.

There's no doubting his talent. Those close to Munster rugby have been shouting about this guy for years. Any of my mates who have season tickets at Thomond been the same since the first time they saw him. His first forray into HC competition this year has seen him win 2 MOTM awards and establish himself as one of the players of that tournament so far. But this is another step up and we'll have to wait and see how it goes.

He is a talent alright Red but its a big step up for him. I was screaming for him to replace Heaslip in the match against Wales as i thought that he would have done a better job at 7 and allowed SOB to take Heaslips spot.

In his 30mins so far, he has actually played very well. Big test tomorrow though

I don't think it will be more balanced.

I look at O'Mahoney and I think ... "that guy is a 6"... physical, aggressive, good lineout jumper, good tackler, good rucker... reminds me a bit of Neil Best, has the same manic look about him.

I look at O'Brien and I think... "that guy is a 6.5".........

To be honest I'm pretty happy the SOB has not made the team. The physicality of Ferris and O'Brien I think might have been too much for Barclay and Rennie to handle. With one of the big leviathans not able to play I now think Rennie and Barclay's technical ability at the breakdown will be too much for Ireland.

I expect a lot of turnovers for Scotland, Lineout dominance and parity in the Scrum. I still think Ireland's cutting edge in the backs will be enough to see you guys win though.

roddersm wrote:I don't think it will be more balanced.

I look at O'Mahoney and I think ... "that guy is a 6"... physical, aggressive, good lineout jumper, good tackler, good rucker... reminds me a bit of Neil Best, has the same manic look about him.

I look at O'Brien and I think... "that guy is a 6.5".........

Thats exactly what i thought!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:There is always a lot of talk about the lack of balance in the Irish backrow, but on another thread I noticed a few comments referring to the fact that the stats actually tell a very different story - the lack of a 7 is not having any noticeable impact on Ireland obtaining turnovers, for example

Dont a lot of Irelands turnovers come from their tackling technique rather than the ground work of a poacher/spoiler though



The problem for me though with Irelands backrow has been teh faliure to really use and capiltalise on what they are best bat ...running with the ball. Previous years they were always safe bankers for tries and assists on fantasy rugby, this year theyve let me down badly.
If SOB gets picked because of his ability to run through teams, and he didnt do that against France, then whats the point of habving him in the side.

cutting edge in the backs?? we will need to find where we left it first.

will be a very tough game. Just have a funny feeling we will scrape through as the cost of losing is higher for us

It will all come down to how our 2nd row goes. If we can win a reasonable amount of our own ball in the lineout (Gray will nick one or two; we just have to keep it to a minimum). then thats good.

Up front this is the same front row that Court, Best and Afoa decimated a little over a month ago. Now they have 2 behemoths behind them for scotland in Gray and Hamilton but we have arguably two better scrummagers in Healy and Ross.

Depending on how the 2nd rows fair in the scrum i think our front row should beast scotlands.

At the breakdown i dont know. Rennie has been stellar (brainfart against england aside) and Barclay is a 7 not a 6. O'Mahoney will make more of a nuisance of himself than SOB on opposition ball imo but im not sure how he will go otherwise. It is another lineout option for us which we may well need though.

I would rather see Ferris clearing out our own ball a lot of the time. If he hits a ruck it will be clear make no bones about it. Big game for Kidney and Ireland. 2 Home defeats in a 6N is too much to bear.

dublin_dave wrote:cutting edge in the backs?? we will need to find where we left it first.

will be a very tough game. Just have a funny feeling we will scrape through as the cost of losing is higher for us

- If the IRFU set up a treasure hunt witha good prize someone might find it!!

Rodders have made some very good points here. There are a few things I shall add though:

1) POM is no more of a natural 7 than SOB.

2) POM gives away even more penalties than SOB.

3) POM does not contest more ball than SOB, from what I have seen.

That is why when people think POM is suddenly going to fix everything, and the balance in the back row, I get confused. Plus if Heaslip does get dropped, instead of moving SOB to 8 and POM to 7, why not just place POM at 8, which to me looks his most natural position? He does need to bulk up a fair bit however.

He's not the Messiah...

POM is a great player, and I hope he really makes a big impact. But a 7 he is not.

yerrah we will see tomorrow.

good luck to o mahony hope he has a stormer. has a bit of dog in him. we have functioned quite well without an orthodox 7 before. It just means someone needs to take ownership of smashing rucks and not carrying. quick ball is key

Rory_Gallagher wrote:POM is a great player, and I hope he really makes a big impact. But a 7 he is not.

Ok, so who do you want to play 7 tomorrow Rory, Jennings?

Honestly, Chris Henry should have been the one starting. But as things stand, I am actually happy with POM at 7 this game. This will be his chance to shine, and to prove me wrong. I am excited to see what happens.

Chris Henry is a decent shout if i may be honest, he has certainly been playing well.

I think that it is now better balanced provided O'Mahony is the fetcher required at 7 many describe him to be. Don't know much about him at all myself.

The dilemma now is who do you drop, O'Brien or Heaslip?

We'll see. POM is very fast, so he might get to the breakdowns a bit quicker?

Standulstermen wrote:It will all come down to how our 2nd row goes. If we can win a reasonable amount of our own ball in the lineout (Gray will nick one or two; we just have to keep it to a minimum). then thats good.

Up front this is the same front row that Court, Best and Afoa decimated a little over a month ago. Now they have 2 behemoths behind them for scotland in Gray and Hamilton but we have arguably two better scrummagers in Healy and Ross.

Depending on how the 2nd rows fair in the scrum i think our front row should beast scotlands.

At the breakdown i dont know. Rennie has been stellar (brainfart against england aside) and Barclay is a 7 not a 6. O'Mahoney will make more of a nuisance of himself than SOB on opposition ball imo but im not sure how he will go otherwise. It is another lineout option for us which we may well need though.

I would rather see Ferris clearing out our own ball a lot of the time. If he hits a ruck it will be clear make no bones about it. Big game for Kidney and Ireland. 2 Home defeats in a 6N is too much to bear.

Interesting points stand.

In theory we should have the upper hand in the scrum. We did much better against the French there than Scotland, however as we've been repeadedly told from the Ireland camp, DOC has been preferred to Ryan because they feel that the scrum is stronger with DOC rather than Ryan packing down with O'Connell.

In terms of the breakdown I think Scotland struggled there against France and England, they didn't commit numbers and I think that area cost them both games. I didn't see the Wales game.

The area with I really fear is the lineout. I'm worried about a repeat of 2010 when we were destroyed there. O'Mahoney will give us another jumper at the tail but I think we will struggle.

I also think Scotland look pretty threatening with the ball and Morrison has traditionally gave D'arcy a really tough time.

I fancy Scotland to win by 2-5 points.

He isn't a fetcher though.. and we are yet to see if this will be better balanced. I think it actually needs to be tested before we look to drop any of our players..

gowales wrote:

roddersm wrote:I don't think it will be more balanced.

I look at O'Mahoney and I think ... "that guy is a 6"... physical, aggressive, good lineout jumper, good tackler, good rucker... reminds me a bit of Neil Best, has the same manic look about him.

I look at O'Brien and I think... "that guy is a 6.5".........

Thats exactly what i thought!

Hopefully, unlike Best, POM is blessed with a brain.........................

Chris Henry is less of a seven than O'Mahoney is. Plus there is absolutely no evidence that O'Mahoney gives away more penalties....please provide this evidence

O'Mahoney had a stormer of a game against Northampton as a seven he initially did give away two penalties at the breakdown but did not give any more away, slowed the Saints ball down very well and was a constant thorn in their sides at the breakdown. He can play anywhere in the Backrow and in his younger days played seven all the time. Isnt that where he captained the U20's from?

He wont weaken the backrow but given how poorly Heaslip has been playing having o'Mahoney, SOB and Ferris would be a stronger one. Also he brings another option to the lineout which could prove an unexpected blessing tomorrow with POC out.

He also jumped on top of a maul in the Northampton game

I think he can be a bit of a loose cannon sometimes.

newbie wrote:Chris Henry is less of a seven than O'Mahoney is. Plus there is absolutely no evidence that O'Mahoney gives away more penalties....please provide this evidence

O'Mahoney had a stormer of a game against Northampton as a seven he initially did give away two penalties at the breakdown but did not give any more away, slowed the Saints ball down very well and was a constant thorn in their sides at the breakdown. He can play anywhere in the Backrow and in his younger days played seven all the time. Isnt that where he captained the U20's from?

He wont weaken the backrow but given how poorly Heaslip has been playing having o'Mahoney, SOB and Ferris would be a stronger one. Also he brings another option to the lineout which could prove an unexpected blessing tomorrow with POC out.

Please explain to me where you came up with the conclusion that Chris Henry is less of a 7 than O'Mahony? Plus he captained the U20s at 8.

My evidence for POM given away more penalties is watching Munster all year. He gives away far too many.

I havent really noticed that to be honest Rory. He does give penalties away but not at an alarming rate. Its the nature of the beast for his job.

Doesn't Chris Henry have an achilles problem anyway, making him unavailable for selection?

eirebilly wrote:I havent really noticed that to be honest Rory. He does give penalties away but not at an alarming rate. Its the nature of the beast for his job.

To put it into perspective, I think SOB and the Ireland team in general give away far too many penalties. So maybe I am over-critical.

MMC wrote:Doesn't Chris Henry have an achilles problem anyway, making him unavailable for selection?

He was just in Paris training with the Irish team, which is why he was unavailable over the weekend.

No Rory apparantly Henry is injured. Someone posted it on here yesterday. It was on his twitter or something.

Well they did last match against France but to be honest i would say that a fair few of those penalties were 'Home Ground' penalties.
On the norm, i find Ireland to be one of the most disciplined teams around to be honest.

roddersm wrote:No Rory apparantly Henry is injured. Someone posted it on here yesterday. It was on his twitter or something.

FLIP SAKE!

How long is he out for??

Chris Henry ‏ @chrishenry678 wrote:

Unfortunately i tweaked my Achilles during a fitness session in Paris last wk'nd. A few days off my feet and i should b back good as new

Doesn't sound too bad thankfully.

Thanks MMC.. yeah that doesn't look too bad. Phew!