Ireland v Scotland match thread

by eirebilly Sat 10 Mar 2012, 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

Scotland have been playing well and causing alot of teams problems and leading the 6N stats in line breaks.

I am expecting a very open game against Ireland and it could be a high scorer.

by Sin é Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:11 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ross didn't get a chance until both Hayes and Buckley were injured, even though it was blindingly obvious for ages that we needed Ross to shore up the scrum. The injuries happen, Ross comes in, and hey presto the scrum is fixed immediately, just like everyone in the world except the Irish coaching team knew would happen.

Deccie doesn't tend to make changes until injury forces his hand. Unfortunately that means the Irish team always has a couple of underperforming players starting, even when there's better options available.

It wasn't blindingly obvious for ages that Ross was up to it. In Ross's first international/6Ns game, we nearly lost to Italy - and were saved by a ROG dropped goal. Our scrum was shocking that day. Think Healy picked up 5 penalties alone.

A lot of Ireland scrum improvement is down to Healy learning to scrummage and it has only got any way reliable since the world cup.

Declan Kidney deserves great credit for bringing Healy through so quickly.

by SecretFly Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:12 pm

You've seen an Irish game (right through since 2010) where attack and defence is in smooth balance and developing smoothly. I didn't see that at all.

If it's going to start happening from here on in (on a consistent basis - the most important point - it must be consistent to be a proven method) then this season will be noted as the beginning; the resurgence, if you will.

by ME-109 Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Ross didn't get a chance until both Hayes and Buckley were injured, even though it was blindingly obvious for ages that we needed Ross to shore up the scrum. The injuries happen, Ross comes in, and hey presto the scrum is fixed immediately, just like everyone in the world except the Irish coaching team knew would happen.

Deccie doesn't tend to make changes until injury forces his hand. Unfortunately that means the Irish team always has a couple of underperforming players starting, even when there's better options available.

It wasn't blindingly obvious for ages that Ross was up to it. In Ross's first international/6Ns game, we nearly lost to Italy - and were saved by a ROG dropped goal. Our scrum was shocking that day. Think Healy picked up 5 penalties alone.

A lot of Ireland scrum improvement is down to Healy learning to scrummage and it has only got any way reliable since the world cup.

Declan Kidney deserves great credit for bringing Healy through so quickly.

Oh dear Sin...dont let the truth get in the way of a good bit of revisionism...the fact that Ross only got his start in Leinster because Stan Wright got injured that season is neither here nor there either.

by newbie Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:You've seen an Irish game (right through since 2010) where attack and defence is in smooth balance and developing smoothly. I didn't see that at all.

If it's going to start happening from here on in (on a consistent basis - the most important point - it must be consistent to be a proven method) then this season will be noted as the beginning; the resurgence, if you will.

What I have seen is a team trying to evolve and develop. I have seen stop start displays and then some good uns. I have seen a certain way of playing coming along slowly but surely in a team without Nacewas or Howletts or Pienaars who tend to be the catalyst for the provinces. Playing a form of rugby as a team that is alien to the average irish player. I have seen a team this weekend play and win comfortably enough for the first time without BOD or POC on the international stage. I certainly believe this team is capable of breaking the hoodoo against New Zealand...this team and this coach...plenty to work on and next week will be the catalyst - a good result and its on and upwards...a poor result and performance and its all in the mix again.

by **Notch** Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:29 pm

eirebilly wrote:Ahh come on now, dont you think that Deccie was a tad ruthless with D'Arcy yesterday?

Nah, I think Best probably took a stinger and they pulled him off as a purely precautionary measure. Kidney then needed to bring on ROG to take over Captaincy and so D'Arcy made way. Thats just what I thought at the time.

by **Notch** Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:33 pm

I think we'll know if Kidney is the wrong man to rebuild this Ireland team in midweek- if O'Brien comes back in at the expense of O'Mahony, he's the wrong man. I've been a big advocate of that backrow in the past but the balance of Ferris and O'Mahony was great for us and is a must going forward.

by ME-109 Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:34 pm

Notch wrote:I think we'll know if Kidney is the wrong man to rebuild this Ireland team in midweek- if O'Brien comes back in at the expense of O'Mahony, he's the wrong man. I've been a big advocate of that backrow in the past but the balance of Ferris and O'Mahony was great for us and is a must going forward.

ssshh....you will wake up Rory...

by SecretFly Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:37 pm

newbie wrote: I certainly believe this team is capable of breaking the hoodoo against New Zealand...this team and this coach...plenty to work on and next week will be the catalyst - a good result and its on and upwards...a poor result and performance and its all in the mix again.

I believe that too. We need a new backs coach as soon as we can get a good one. If we can play a good game against England and pull off the win I know these players can then yes, things are moving back up the graph. And the more the players and coaches can look up, the more confidence will help smooth the edges of our game too. There is hope now for a while, where there was very little in the way of hope in the aftermath of the Welsh game.

by newbie Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:42 pm

I dont think we need a new backs coach, I have seen certain changes in the way the backs are aligning on attack that makes me think Kiss is the person to take it forward. There has been more depth and more options out wide I wouldnt be so quick to ditch him.

by SecretFly Sun 11 Mar 2012, 11:50 pm

Kiss needs to concentrate on one job. If he takes backs, so be it; we still need an extra coach.
Ireland want to be a professional side on the highest rungs...we want to be back up to 4th or 5th and we want to be as effective as we can be leading into and during our New Zealand tour. Kidney has gone long enough without a full coaching selection and the IRFU need to cough up and get him the one or possibly now two needed.

by **Notch** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:29 am

Just heard on twitter Andrew Trimble has been to visit with Lee Jones in hospital- It's a nice sporting gesture from Trimble. Good to see- I'm another Ireland fan hoping Lee Jones is alright Smile

by SecretFly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:35 am

We're all hoping he's alright. And I wouldn't expect anything else from Trimble.

by Sin é Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:41 am

SecretFly wrote:Kiss needs to concentrate on one job. If he takes backs, so be it; we still need an extra coach.
Ireland want to be a professional side on the highest rungs...we want to be back up to 4th or 5th and we want to be as effective as we can be leading into and during our New Zealand tour. Kidney has gone long enough without a full coaching selection and the IRFU need to cough up and get him the one or possibly now two needed.

eh, Joe Schmidt manages being head coach and backs coach. Presumable he must be defence coach as well as Leinster don't have a specialist defence coach. Mark Tainton helps as well. I'm sure ROG could take over the kicking coaching if it all got too busy for them.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 12:56 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Kiss needs to concentrate on one job. If he takes backs, so be it; we still need an extra coach.
Ireland want to be a professional side on the highest rungs...we want to be back up to 4th or 5th and we want to be as effective as we can be leading into and during our New Zealand tour. Kidney has gone long enough without a full coaching selection and the IRFU need to cough up and get him the one or possibly now two needed.

eh, Joe Schmidt manages being head coach and backs coach. Presumable he must be defence coach as well as Leinster don't have a specialist defence coach. Mark Tainton helps as well. I'm sure ROG could take over the kicking coaching if it all got too busy for them.

Dear Jesus. "The Sun should come up every morning." - "Why? The Moon doesn't" - There's always a cop out.

The argument put out there on other days when other arguments need ammunition is that Provincial isn't remotely similar in standard to International. And now we're happy with a ragtaggle army of player-coaches and Jehova Witness volunteers...and all because a guy calling himself Fly said he thinks the IRFU should do it more professionally?

BTW, I know a lad - Benny Donovan - he'll do the video analysis if they need him. He's good at computers and things and stuff like that...mostly video games though so we might have to wean him off that first at the Betty Ford clinic.

by Golden Mon 12 Mar 2012, 2:09 am

newbie wrote:
What I have seen is a team trying to evolve and develop. I have seen stop start displays and then some good uns. I have seen a certain way of playing coming along slowly but surely in a team without Nacewas or Howletts or Pienaars who tend to be the catalyst for the provinces. Playing a form of rugby as a team that is alien to the average irish player. I have seen a team this weekend play and win comfortably enough for the first time without BOD or POC on the international stage. I certainly believe this team is capable of breaking the hoodoo against New Zealand...this team and this coach...plenty to work on and next week will be the catalyst - a good result and its on and upwards...a poor result and performance and its all in the mix again.

Hang on weve developed since the beggining of the world cup but for the 2 years before that we were absolute muck there was absolutely no consistency in our game other than we were constantly underwhelming except for the one match a season where we picked it up.

Why is that style alien to Irish players who play it week in week out on the HC? Leinster play this way whether Nacewa is there or not. Munster have played some really good to watch rugby without howlett, the only NIQs they need are props. In Ulster Pienaar gives them the clinical edge needed to win but they still attempt to play the same way without him.

Are people actually happy with the result in Paris? i know taken out of context a draw in Paris is a good result but we should have won that game. That was a poor poor French team and we had an 11 point lead at half time. We should have attacked more with that lead not less. Deccie got it absolutely wrong there.

Against Scotland we were better and Deccie got his tactics right there was a much more balance in play. I think we are improving and getting there (eventually) with regards to a game plan, but its taken him long enough. If we continue to improve against England than well done kidney, he will have earn't back some of the trust I used to have in him and bring on the all blacks. But if we don't then the game against Scotland becomes nothing more than one of those all to rare occasions when we click.

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 6:59 am

Notch wrote:Just heard on twitter Andrew Trimble has been to visit with Lee Jones in hospital- It's a nice sporting gesture from Trimble. Good to see- I'm another Ireland fan hoping Lee Jones is alright

Fair play to him and i really hope that Lee Jones makes a full recovery, that was a nasty collision. After the first replay of it, i thought that Jones had broken his jaw in the impact. I hope that i am wrong there,

by Standulstermen Mon 12 Mar 2012, 8:41 am

Yeah I'm still not convinced. England's win there shows how poor France are at the moment.

Now you have to give credit to kidney as the Scotland game was a massive improvement but we have still only won 2 games and could well end up 4th. Agree with above that POM should be retained. Sends entirely the wrong mesage to drop him. At some stage in NZ I would like to see O'brien at 8 over Heaslip though.

On Saturday I think we used ferris much better defensively again and really he is too important in this regard to have him standing out watching rucks. This would IMO give us the freedom to have SOB wider and hopefully see those bullocking runs again.

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 8:45 am

Personally i would have Ferris at 6, POM at 7, SOB (if fit) at 8 and Heaslip on the bench.

by geoff998rugby Mon 12 Mar 2012, 8:48 am

Agreed the decision should be Heaslip or SOB ay 8 we all know it will be POM to the bench though dont we.

I would also like to see DOC droped for Tuohy and D'Arcy dropped with Sexton at 12.

Not going to happen though

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 8:50 am

oohh geoff, i do like the Sexton at 12 suggestion. I have been after that for some time. I honestly feel that within a season we may see Madigan at 10 with Sexton at 12. Really seems like it could work for me Very Happy

by Standulstermen Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:05 am

Can't agree with sexton at 12 purely thinking if the future. Madigan still has se way to go and in that case we are putting our only international 10 out of position (ROG won't go on forever). I can see the merit in this short term though.

I don't think DOC should have that spot either but he will be retained. Ryan is IMO almost as good on the opposition ball than our own. He has been excellent so far.

Earls has grown into the 13 shirt well and it would be interesting to see what he could do with a better 12. Have to say I'm worried he won't see much gametime there for munster next year with the Laulala signing.

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:17 am

I just honestly feel that Madigan has the makings of a better footballing 10 than Sexton and that i would not be suprised to see if that happened at Leinster very soon.

I would go for the ROG 10, Sexton 12 and Earles 13 against England though as i feel that its a good option. Sexton would play better than D'Arcy at 12 i feel.

by Standulstermen Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:28 am

I would be massively surprised Billy. For all his strengths as a backs coach Schmidt still picks D'arcy at 12 in the big games. I think taking his first choice 10 and moving him won't really enter his thoughts

by MrsP Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:33 am

Can you explain what you mean by a "footballing 10"?

I've heard it a lot and I'm not sure everyone means the same thing by it.

I have always taken it to mean an OH who has more to his game than kicking the leather off the ball, good pass, willing to dart around the defence etc?

Is that what you mean?

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:42 am

I think that its an option that Schmidt will look at eventually stand.

MrsP,

What my interpretation of 'footballing 10' is the awarness and ability get in behind defences with pace and creativity whilst also having a good tactical brain. (i know you are going to jump on me for that explaination Wink

) Everybody will have their own interpretation.

This approach i like is to actually have 2 10's in a side. One playing at 12 and interchanging them regularly during the match to keep confusing the defence. France used to deploy this tactic on a regular basis with great sucess in the 00's.

by **rodders** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:43 am

Just managed to watch the game last night.

Can't complain about the win as I thought we may lose this one. Mixed bag in terms of performance and once again we've struggled to put an 80min performance together. Maybe that was down to the substitutions and the 6 day turnaround but we won't get away with taking the foot of the gas agains England.

Stephen Ferris was motm for me. He stood out prominantly over the 80min putting in some huge hits, supplied another try scoring pass and made a couple of turnovers. On this form hes the best 6 around.

Donnacha Ryan had a fantastic game. He has grown immensely as a player in the past 12 months. Superb in the lineout and adds an extra dimension in the lose with his handling skills.

The team funtion much better with Reddan at 9. He links better with Sexton and is much better at organising and directing the players around him. He also passes out in front of players rather than to them. Box kicking was poor though.

Earls had his best game in the centre yet and seems to be improving by the game. Maybe he is the chosen one after all Wink

.

O'Mahoney had a very good game but gave away a few penalties at the breakdown and alse missed tackles on Denton once or twice off the scrum. Not convinced he's better on the openside than SOB but we shall see. Don't mind who starts against England.

Best captained the team well when he was on the pitch and loved the way he backed himself for the first try. Seemed to have the respect of the players around him and other senior players seemed to step up under his leadership and take more ownership. Perhaps some players are too in awe of POC and BOD?

Strange and poor descision to take him off unless he was injured. You never sub your captain. ROG did a good job when he came on though.

I thought the TMO got it wrong and should have awarded Bowes try. Good to see Trimble pop up on the opposite wing for his try, he seemed more like his Ulster self in this game. Another good game from Kearney who seemed more involved in attack.

Overall a lot of positive play with the ball and we looked more creative. Defensively we were sloppy at times, particularly for Grays try.

We'll need a big improvement next week and how costly that we didn't put France away last week as we would still have an outside shot at the title.

by geoff998rugby Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:46 am

Little known law re Bowe's try.

The tackler does not have to release the ball carrier in the in goal area.
Therefore Bowe was correctly pinged for not releasing

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:48 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Little known law re Bowe's try.

The tackler does not have to release the ball carrier in the in goal area.
Therefore Bowe was correctly pinged for not releasing

I thought that it had to do with the grounding? The TMO clearly asked for which grounding, the first or the second so for me it was deemed a double movement.

Personally i thought that it was held up in goal and would be a 5mtr scrum for Ireland.

by TJ1 Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:50 am

Bowe has to touch the ball down immediatly - he was unable to do so. Correct decison

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:51 am

TJ wrote:Bowe has to touch the ball down immediatly - he was unable to do so. Correct decison

That is true, however because of the ambiguity of the law, tackler must release tackled player and tackled player has to place immediately which wasn't going to happen either way, perhaps the best result there would have been a scrum to the attacking team.

by geoff998rugby Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:52 am

Eirebilly you are right in terms of what was asked - maybe Rolland does not know the law either Very Happy

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:53 am

biltongbek wrote:
TJ wrote:Bowe has to touch the ball down immediatly - he was unable to do so. Correct decison

That is true, however because of the ambiguity of the law, tackler must release tackled player and tackled player has to place immediately which wasn't going to happen either way, perhaps the best result there would have been a scrum to the attacking team.

The need to release doenst apply in goal, players are allowed to try and stop the grounding.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:54 am

I thought Reddan had a pretty average game to be honest, and he and Bowe's 'tackle' on Gray was abysmal. However, despite being so-so, the Irish backline functioned better with Reddan. I hope this is a lesson learnt for Kidney.

by **rodders** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:55 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Little known law re Bowe's try.

The tackler does not have to release the ball carrier in the in goal area.
Therefore Bowe was correctly pinged for not releasing

Yes but surely Bowe managed to wriggle free and ground the ball which he is entitled to do unless the Ref blows for the scrum?

Certainly the double movement call was incorrect.

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:55 am

Yeah, i just thought that he was pinged for double movement geoff, it took him an eternity to get the ball down because the Scottish defender was doing an amazing job holding him up.

If it was the double movement as i think it was then it was certainly the correct decision to award the penalty. I just felt at the time that it was held up in goal and a 5mtr scrum.

by eirebilly Mon 12 Mar 2012, 9:57 am

The longer it takes MrsP to respond the more scared i get that i am going to get a lecture of monumentous proportions Wink

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:00 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
TJ wrote:Bowe has to touch the ball down immediatly - he was unable to do so. Correct decison

That is true, however because of the ambiguity of the law, tackler must release tackled player and tackled player has to place immediately which wasn't going to happen either way, perhaps the best result there would have been a scrum to the attacking team.

The need to release doenst apply in goal, players are allowed to try and stop the grounding.

That is exactly why the law is ambiguous. The decision was double movement, but when you look at any other time where a maul takes the ball over, the line there is usually so many hands that it is a clear case of being held up.

In this case there was only one pair of hands holding the ball up, if it was released by the tackler it would have been a legitimate immediate movement to dot the ball down.

The reason it was seen as a second movement is because of the elapsed time before he could. Hense my suggestion that the usual law of held up should have been a fairer outcome.

by **rodders** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:01 am

It was either a 5m attacking scrum or a try. It can't be anything else and as the ref didn't blow the whistle before Bowe grounded it, then it should have been a try imo.

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:12 am

Yes, my opinion a 5m scrum.

by MrsP Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:19 am

eirebilly wrote:The longer it takes MrsP to respond the more scared i get that i am going to get a lecture of monumentous proportions

I had to nip out for a wee while.

Do I give lectures?

Erm

Thanks for your definition of a footballing 10. I like Sexton at 12 too. Maybe we are all turning into Kiwis!

by dublin_dave Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:20 am

agreed on reddan. he did not have a great game at all but we play our best attacking rugby when he starts. make of that what you will

we seem to try and play meat head rugby with tol and murray to a lesser extent at scrum half.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:24 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Little known law re Bowe's try.

The tackler does not have to release the ball carrier in the in goal area.
Therefore Bowe was correctly pinged for not releasing

Didn't know that,good for future reference.

by **rodders** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:33 am

I thought the referee had a very good game too. Allowed the game to flow and had a good rapport with the payers.

Allowed just the right amount of time for the advantage to be played, which a lot of refs are poor at these days.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:34 am

MrsP wrote:
eirebilly wrote:The longer it takes MrsP to respond the more scared i get that i am going to get a lecture of monumentous proportions

I had to nip out for a wee while.

Do I give lectures?

Thanks for your definition of a footballing 10. I like Sexton at 12 too. Maybe we are all turning into Kiwis!

PS Where were my texts?! Bliwdy favouritism mad

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:34 am

MrsP wrote:
I had to nip out for a wee while. Do I give lectures?

Uhhh, yeah. thumbsup

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:34 am

MrsP wrote:Thanks for your definition of a footballing 10. I like Sexton at 12 too. Maybe we are all turning into Kiwis!

I absolutely loathe the idea of Sexton at 12. Sexton and O'Gara are not Campbell and Ward. O'Gara looks long past his best and Sexton needs the opportunity to develop properly into the 10 position. Chopping and changing at 10 has already damaged Sexton in that he hasn't been given a full opportunity to hone his craft in arguably the most important position on the pitch. Moving him to 12 in the international arena when he doesn't do it for Leinster is sheer lunacy.

by geoff998rugby Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:39 am

I think it was the right decision but for the wrong reason.

Moving Sexton to 12 is address the fact we have a player not good enough there at the moment. D'Arcy is a passanger. It is a short term solution for one match. BOD should be Ireland 12 for the next 18 months or so until soemone else is ready.

If that is too radical then pick Wallace or McFadden - anyone but D'Arcy

by MrsP Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:47 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
MrsP wrote:
eirebilly wrote:The longer it takes MrsP to respond the more scared i get that i am going to get a lecture of monumentous proportions

I had to nip out for a wee while.

Do I give lectures?

Thanks for your definition of a footballing 10. I like Sexton at 12 too. Maybe we are all turning into Kiwis!

PS Where were my texts?! Bliwdy favouritism

Asbo!

I tried! I really did but for some reason your phone doesn't like my phone. Sad

It was the same 2 years ago when we were trying to find you in Dublin. You may remember I had to resort to getting the hubby to phone you. You'll speak to him but not to me.

Crying or Very sad

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:48 am

geoff998rugby wrote:I think it was the right decision but for the wrong reason.

Moving Sexton to 12 is address the fact we have a player not good enough there at the moment. D'Arcy is a passanger. It is a short term solution for one match. BOD should be Ireland 12 for the next 18 months or so until soemone else is ready.

If that is too radical then pick Wallace or McFadden - anyone but D'Arcy

In theory I would agree with you Geoff. Two problems however. 1) Apart from us Ulster fans like you and I, no one wants Wallace in the team. If people watched him for Ulster this season you would see how well he gets the outside backs going often inspite of Ian Humphreys. I really don't get the anti-Wallace brigade. He butchered an opportunity against Wales last season but if that is his only crime then we have some pretty shoddy supporters. 2) How can McFadden take his place? He can't get past Darcy for Leinster. So here's the obvious question- if Kidney is wrong not to pick McFadden at 12 then what does that make Schimdt? There's a really strange hypocrisy coming from Irish fans in the past 18 months over selection.

by geoff998rugby Mon 12 Mar 2012, 10:55 am

Not sure it so much a case of McFadden cant get past D'Arcy (although there is an element of that) as a case of McFadden being the victim of his own versatility.

Horgan and Fitzgerald injured.
Carr not good enough
Kearney jr and Conway perceived as not ready (although in the former case I question that) means he has been shunted out to the wing so that both he and D'Arcy play.

I remain convinced that 12 is his best position and if he doesn't play there next year I fear he will go backwards.

He would not be the first in Irish rugby to suffer in this way.

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