Mark Richardson on Jacques Kallis

Pretty good opinion piece by Rigor.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/cricket/news/article.cfm?c_id=29&objectid=10788045

Kallis' record with the bat is as good or better than the mentioned Lara and co but he is not as good as them, imo.

Back to his allround status. Him and Sobers stand out as the best batting allrounders ever and Kallis is rightly lauded as a real all time GREAT.

I often think South African sportsmen don't get the recognition they deserve because of the way South Africans in general behave.

We aren't really braggerts, we feel proud of our achievements and then let it be.

This shines through in the way our media behaves as well, they will always compliment the opposing visitng team talk about their threats etc. They will of course mention "Kallis our best all rounder ever" but that is as far as it goes. We don't punt our stars into the faces of other nations.

The same tends to happen to our rugby players.

Maybe we need to be a little more arrogant and in your face with our sportsmen and womens achievements.

Wrote a similar article myself a few months back, expressing my view that whilst undoubtedly great, he is still a tiny bit adrift of the Tendulkar's, Lara's and Ponting's of this world. I'll see if I can dig it out later.

Kallis is a very fine player and one of the best Test batsman of all time. But I would not put him in the same class AS AN ALL-ROUNDER as the likes of Botham, Imran, Kapil Dev and Hadlee. Vettori's figures are not to be sneezed at, either.
No doubt the stattos can tell us just how many Test wickets Jacques has got over, say the last 50 Tests.

Kallis' bowling was way better than Hadlee's batting. Kallis IMO is an alrounder and Hadlee, not.

There was a discussion on LKallis' rel;ative place in the grand scheme of things 6 months ago ...might be good to merge this?

Hes been massively underatted over the years paretly due to having spent most of his career in an era where there were a number of real batting legends, and also from being in a side that doesnt really win much of note and hasnt been number one.

His career bowling is suffering because its declined the last few years but if anthing his battings come on even more. He deserves to be up there in Hall of Fames Hall of Fame.

well to get back to what sirfredperry was alluding to earlier.

In the last 5 years Kallis took 62 wicket s at an average of 35, Vettori has taken 128 wickets at an average of 33, but a worst strike rate.

biltongbek wrote:well to get back to what sirfredperry was alluding to earlier.

In the last 5 years Kallis took 62 wicket s at an average of 35, Vettori has taken 128 wickets at an average of 33, but a worst strike rate.

Interesting comparison. How many tests each in that time? Spinners do tend to have higher strike rates that seamers - expecially if you're playing half your matches in NZ conditions. Though Vettori has frustrated me over the years for his inability to take a hatful of wickets when the ball is really turning.

Vettori 1725 overs

Kallis 761 overs

so Kallis averages roughly 12 wickets per year over the last five years, which probably comes to about one wicket per test. Don't think that's really enough to qualify him as an all-rounder recently, though he's more than a part-timer. Maybe "occasional bowler" sounds better?

As a batsman, he's clearly up there in the top 5 of the era (with Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara and Dravid). People will point to the rather shady notion that he tends to grab the game by the scruff of the neck less than the first three names, but I for one feel he tends to be a little under-rated.

Kallis bowled in 75 innings for his 62 wickets, so it is almost a wicket per innings, perhaps more than a part time bowler, I would suggest he is just managed more and hence bowls roughly 10-11 overs per innings.

Twould be easier, in some ways, to assess Kallis if you took away his bowling and just looked at him as a Test batsman. Would agree with Mad for Chelsea that he's up there with the best of the current/most recent era.
The bowling is a bonus but he would not be picked for his bowling alone, at least not in recent years.
It was often said that a really good all-rounder should be good enough to be picked for their batting AND their bowling alone. Not sure hardly anyone comes into this category. Perhaps Keith Miller, Sobers, Imran, Botham. Any others ?

Yet, he is still ranked two in the all rounder category, only 6 points behind shakib al Hasan?

biltongbek wrote:Kallis bowled in 75 innings for his 62 wickets, so it is almost a wicket per innings, perhaps more than a part time bowler, I would suggest he is just managed more and hence bowls roughly 10-11 overs per innings.

yes but how many innings have SA bowled in? the fact that he doesn't bowl that much suggests t me that he's more of an occasional bowler than a proper all-rounder these days. Then again the only players I'd consider to be genuine all-rounders nowadays are Watson, Shakib and Vettori.

during the same time Steyn bowled 77 innings, but played 3 tests less.

so Kallis pretty much bowls every innings.

Explain to me how you see Vettori as an all rounder but not kallis?

vettori is a spin bowler and hence bowls more overs in general than a pace bowler would.

If we are looking at career's then Kallis can and should be classed as an allrounder.

Just as a note on Kallis, he bowled in 248 innings during his 150 test career.

He has bowled 3134 overs which is about 12.6 overs per innings, it is true he isn't as fast or effective as he once was, but to suggest he is no longer an allrounder is ludicrous.

simple biltong, Vettori bats top 6 or 7 and is one of his side's main bowlers, hence is an all-rounder. Kallis bowls a lot less than Vettori (I suspect over the last 5 years Vettori has played less tests than Kallis, yet bowls more than double the overs, I also suspect that Kallis's bowling efforts have decreased over the last 2 or 3 years).

Judging by your stats, it seems Kallis bowls more than I initially thought, but I still wouldn't classify roughly 10 overs per innings as an all-rounder as such. Over his career, certainly, but not over the last 5 years.

biltongbek wrote:I often think South African sportsmen don't get the recognition they deserve because of the way South Africans in general behave.

You said it, Biltong!

guildfordbat wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I often think South African sportsmen don't get the recognition they deserve because of the way South Africans in general behave.

You said it, Biltong!

KP?
Smith?

Stella wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I often think South African sportsmen don't get the recognition they deserve because of the way South Africans in general behave.

You said it, Biltong!

KP?
Smith?

Never seen smith to be punted the saviour of SA cricket.

Smith does come across as an arrogant so and so.

Got to boringly agree with the majority here.

Kallis is a damn fine player, and amongst the top 2 all-rounders of all-time (sir Garfield Sobers is the other). He is also, as a batsman, amongst the top of his generation. However rightly or wrongly he seems to have been labeled with the tag "not a match-winner": possibly it is his lack of defining innings (could you quote a Kallis hundred easily? In the same way that you could quote Sachin's 200, his masterful knock against Steyn, Ponting's 145 to save the game at Old Trafford, his WC final knock in '03, etc.; Lara's 400 of course, but also his 277, 213 and 153* against the Aussies). Possibly it is because South Africa, very good though they are, simply haven't won anything of note (apart from one series in Australia, and I don't remember Kallis having much to do with that TBH) since their re-admittance to test cricket.

Whatever, it is harsh, and over the last 2 years or so we have seen Kallis receive more credit at last. Paradoxically over this period of time he has possibly become less complete as a cricketer: he doesn't always field in the slips for instance (against Sri Lanka Rudolph and De Villiers were often stood there). And he doesn't bowl nearly as much.

I have to disagree with Biltong here: as of now, Kallis is no longer really an all-rounder in test cricket. He is a handy bowler, and certainly better than a part-timer: he fills a valuable role in letting the strike bowlers rest particularly if Tahir is leaking runs, but no longer qualifies as an all-rounder IMO. Mainly for the reasons already given. I also feel that with Philander now able to tie up an end, he'll bowl less and less as time goes on.

To summarise:
- great player, possibly the best all-rounder of all-time when in his pomp
- probably a fraction below some of his contempories as a pure batsman
- still a great batsman, but no longer an all-rounder.

I suppose at the end of the day, it is more important in how high esteem Sotuh Africans will remember Jaques Kallis and less important how the rest of the world sees him.

If they consider him to have been a world class player then that would be enough.

Lists of who is greatest is really more of a subjective view anyway, isn't it?

Kallis the greatests all-rounder to have ever played the game IMO.

Even greater than Sobers as an all rounder?

yes

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Even greater than Sobers as an all rounder?

Although I wouldn't necessarily agree with CF, it is not an unreasonable stance to take based on statistics at least. If you add in the fact that Kallis had a poor start to his test career...

I think the point about Kallis is, rightly or wrongly, and as borne out by your shock at CF's opinion, that he simply isn't rated as highly by most people as his statistics suggest he should.

he is easily one of the greattest batsman of all time, then you throw in his bowling, and u have the best all-rounder ever.

Mike - I certainly rate Kallis very highly indeed as a batsmen and think he is a very reasonable bowler (particularly in former years). When the time comes I will certainly be supporting the case for his entry in the 606v2 HoF!

I think the main reason old duffers like me automatically side with Sobers is that he was blessed with the most natural ability. We experienced that at the time of his playing (even if only via tv, radio and press reports) which made a life lasting impact.

Kallis has had to work harder for his rewards. That is not to denigrate him in any way at all but I think that also goes some way to explaining why he fails to capture the imagination in the way that Sobers did and always will.

Jacques Kallis is the most valuable player of all time I think - there has been no one except perhaps the recently retired Dravid and the long retired Walsh who have ignored all personal criticism - all quests for glory and inch by bloody inch taken their team to victory. Mrs Gavaskar said If i wanted someone to bat for my pleasure it would be my husband - If I wanted someone to bat for my life it would be Javed Miandad and viv richards said something similar (without the husband bit!) (he was never confused!) and I think neither would argue if we extended the same sentiment towards Kallis. In pakistan he is our favourite and therefore our most dreaded opponent - because he fights and fights and fights and usually wins. Then he goes quietly back into his room awaiting only the next chance to serve his country. Exaggeration I know but the man is exceptional - and there are those who might claim he just plays the way he does because its the only way he can - his career has thrown up several examples of glorious strokeplay and innings which if played by someone generally more exciting would be hailed as titanic. Bit of the Paul scholes syndrome - Kallis is rated by those in the game and less by those outside of it.



Now biltong - can you uncock the firing pin gently and please release my kids.

For me:
Tendulkar d most iconic player/batsmen of the last 20yrs
Lara d best player to watch of d last 20yrs
Ponting d best batsmen in the best team of d last 20yrs
But for me Kallis was the best batsmen durin this period, his stats r phenomenol, particuarly when u consider his batting avg was under 30 in his 1st 30innings
he does have some breathtaking perfromances in there...his 169 out of 360 team runs against india (think he hit anoth century in d game), his 162 out of 332 against england a few yrs ago


Also he has to be one of the most talented cricketers ever if u include his bowling but i think it is hard & rather subjective to compare between generations. However wot is not in doubt durin the last 20yrs he has been the most complete & best cricketer

ShahenshahG wrote:Jacques Kallis is the most valuable player of all time I think - there has been no one except perhaps the recently retired Dravid and the long retired Walsh who have ignored all personal criticism - all quests for glory and inch by bloody inch taken their team to victory. Mrs Gavaskar said If i wanted someone to bat for my pleasure it would be my husband - If I wanted someone to bat for my life it would be Javed Miandad and viv richards said something similar (without the husband bit!) (he was never confused!) and I think neither would argue if we extended the same sentiment towards Kallis. In pakistan he is our favourite and therefore our most dreaded opponent - because he fights and fights and fights and usually wins. Then he goes quietly back into his room awaiting only the next chance to serve his country. Exaggeration I know but the man is exceptional - and there are those who might claim he just plays the way he does because its the only way he can - his career has thrown up several examples of glorious strokeplay and innings which if played by someone generally more exciting would be hailed as titanic. Bit of the Paul scholes syndrome - Kallis is rated by those in the game and less by those outside of it.



Now biltong - can you uncock the firing pin gently and please release my kids.

I will not only release your kids, but also return the ransom money. In my biased opinion, that is very nicely put, thanks mate.

I could never put Kallis - great player that he is - above Sobers in the all-rounder category. The great Gary could bowl seamers as well as two types of spinner and was also a wonderful batsman.
Just look at some of his efforts against England in 1966 and in 1967/68. He was practically a one-man team. I was at The Oval to see him get out first ball in 1966. I wanted England to win but it was always a disappointment to see him go.

I did this comaprison a few months ago, might even have been on the old 606.

The value of an allrounder per innings for his team.

Kallis has scored at an average of 57.01 and costs 32.49 per wicket in runs he takes. now he has taken 275 wickets in 250 innings.

Garry Sobers has scored at an average per wicket of 57.78 and costs 34.03 per wicket in runs.

Kallis has a differential of 24.52 on the plus side
Sobers has a differential of 23.75 on the plus side.

Kallis has a bowling strike rate of 68.5
Sobers has a bowling strike rate of 91.9

Kallis has an economy rate of 2.85
Sobers has an economy rate of 2.22

Batting strike rate aren't available for Sobers.

Kallis gets a century every 6.1 innings
Sobers gets a century every 6.15 innings

Kallis gets a score of 50 or more every 2.63 innings
Sobers gets a score of 50 or more every 2.86 innings

Kallis bowled an average of 12.6 overs per innings
Sobers bowled an average of 22.6 overs per innings

sirfredperry wrote:I could never put Kallis - great player that he is - above Sobers in the all-rounder category. The great Gary could bowl seamers as well as two types of spinner and was also a wonderful batsman.

I think Sir Fred's comments about the variety of Sobers' bowling back up my earlier post about him being ''blessed with the most natural ability''.

Biltong - I make that point to applaud Sobers and not to criticise Kallis in any way. Kallis has been a wonderful servant to South African cricket. Sobers was really his own master.

biltong

Stats say Kallis was a better bat than Viv, Sachin, Lara, Ponting and Greg Chappell.

I think most will say he wasn't as good as at least three of them.

I would say he's behind all.

Can I just point something out:

Kallis Batting Average in Tests is 57.01
Tendulkar Batting Average in Tests is 55.44

Put simply, I rate Kallis as a better batsmen than the very very overrated Tendulkar.

Duty281 wrote:Can I just point something out:

Kallis Batting Average in Tests is 57.01
Tendulkar Batting Average in Tests is 55.44

Put simply, I rate Kallis as a better batsmen than the very very overrated Tendulkar.

Is that based on your observations rather than an average?

Stella wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Can I just point something out:

Kallis Batting Average in Tests is 57.01
Tendulkar Batting Average in Tests is 55.44

Put simply, I rate Kallis as a better batsmen than the very very overrated Tendulkar.

Is that based on your observations rather than an average?

Yes. Tendulkar plays the majority of his tests on the Subcontinent where it's flat as a pancake and Kallis simply doesn't.

Tendulkar does bat well everywhere else though.

Kallis hasn't got a great record in Aus or England.

It simply boils down to defining innings. Jacques hasn't produced them to anywhere near the quality or quantity that Ponting, Tendulkar and Lara have, and he is also rather drab to watch, and for those reasons I rate him below those guys.

In terms of sheer stats and figures they are all clearly incredibly gifted batsmen with not much to separate them.

It is all a matter of opinion isn't it?

Fists of Fury: did u watch the saf india series a yr ago in south africa, he played a number of brill knocks

Biltong
Do you really want SA sportsmen getting recognition because of the general behaviour of South Africans? Surely not after that guy smacked Kev the Rev over the head with a full bottle at Loftus last weekend.

No mate I am talking about how our media behaves.

They aren't big on punting our sports stars, they are very low key when it comes to giving out accolades to our sportsmen.

If you compare it to Australia, they will talk your ears off on how good their players are.

Your media is similar to ours in a sense, I was watching the cricket test this morning, and your guys behave similarly to ours. Big up the opposition, very respectful of the SA players.


Those guys you are talking about is a bunch of drunken hillbillies who are angry at their sisters..err I mean wives. Fortunately they are few and far between.

The problem with Jacques Kallis is that he does not play for either England, India, Australia or West Indies.

I am not going to mention specific players, but it takes a lot less before said players are talked up by their respective countries.

The detractors of Jacques Kallis have often said that there is more to it than stats (fair enough to a point), but the problem comes in when these people conveniently ignore the countless times Kallis have saved the Proteas backside.

Surely there should be more weight on performances that helps your team win not how one looks doing it (its not a fashion show).

I honestly believe that it was thanks to Kallis that the Proteas have punched above its weight in periods when they might not have had the strongest team