Four Welsh players nominated for player of the Six Nations award...!

First topic message reminder :

Well despite there being another round of rugby to go, the voting can now begin for 'Player of the Tournament'.
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/player_of_rbs_6_nations.php

Here's the list of players from the 6 Nations website.

• Julien Malzieu (France)
  
• David Denton (Scotland)
  
• Mike Phillips (Wales)
  
• Sergio Parisse (Italy)
  
• Yoann Maestri (France)
  
• Dan Lydiate (Wales)
  
• Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
  
• Sam Warburton (Wales)
  
• Ross Rennie (Scotland)
  
• Alex Cuthbert (Wales)
  
• Donnacha Ryan (Ireland)
  
• Imanol Harinordoquy (France)

(Just to explain players make the list for having won man of the match)

Now it's always struck me as odd that the 5th and final round isn't taken into consideration, clearly winning Man of the Match on the final Saturday means less than on the first?
Also it's surprising to see no English players on the list. Hard luck to Manu Tuilagi & Tom Croft as I was pretty sure one of them was going to win MOM on Sunday.
And speaking of surprises, no George North? No Richie Gray? No Jonathan Davis? No Wesley Fofana?

Anyway based on that list I'd go for David Denton, hard to believe he only got his first cap this year. Big and powerful going forward, strong in defence, and with great handling skills that must be the envy of some of the Scottish backs...

Anyhow out of that list who would you pick? And who should really be on the list?

biltongbek wrote:Just popping it up so posters can see this thread allready exists.

Thanks - did check but not far enough down

Every year this list gets put up and every year it is a waste of space and time

Richie Gray by a mile for me - stand out player, in a overall poor team (which is the only reason Parisse is there as he has make a load of costly mistakes this 6 nations)

Yep, Richie Gray to me has been standout.

Man of the match is a terrible way to pick these selections. Richie Gray has been consistantly good for Scotland and has made every team of the round this year without fail.

The shortlist being generated in this way is pure muppetry.

Can't understand the praise Phillips has garnered. Certainly did not deserve his MOM accolade in my opinion. In that particular match North or others were far more appropriate candidates.

Still a flanker who thinks he's a scrum half in my opinion.

He goes into contact too much which has led to a fair few loose passes by those having to replace him. The recent Italy being a good example.

Not quick and snappy enough. I think his lethargic approach and Rhys Priestland's patchy form is what has led Wales to look less threatening in their last two matches.


Fofana in my opinion deserves to be in the list because of his trying scoring feats so far but in between those tries seems to be missing in action.

My list would consist of:

George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Dan Lydiate
Jonathan Davies
Richie Gray
Ross Rennie
Dave Denton
Owen Farrell
Wesley Fofana
Tommy Bowe
Rob Kearney
Sergio Parrisse

Beschoced, why don't you put up a thread of potential man of the tournament as voted by posters.

Put your candidates in, give it a week and then put a short list up next week of the top 10 and let 606vs2 vote on it.

Can't believe Gary isn't even shortlisted I would have put him up there to win the award. No Kearney either? Trés stránge

Good idea Biltongbek.

Denton for his consistency.

How Croft didn't get MOM v France is baffling. However, it was his first very good performance.

Grey looks to be the man of the tornament for me thus far

Agree that this is a ludicrous shortlist. Warbs has only played 1.5 games out of 4! Phillips played well against Ireland, not great since. JD2 our best player in my opinion but not on list. No Gray, Ferris, Bowe, Fofana, Ferris, Halfpenny, Tuilagi. And it should of course be shortlisted after the final game - what if JD2 scores 2 tries on saturday to seal the grand slam (wishful thinking but you get my drift!)??

beshocked wrote:Can't understand the praise Phillips has garnered. Certainly did not deserve his MOM accolade in my opinion. In that particular match North or others were far more appropriate candidates.

Still a flanker who thinks he's a scrum half in my opinion.

He goes into contact too much which has led to a fair few loose passes by those having to replace him. The recent Italy being a good example.

North should have been MOTM in that game. And no, the Italy example is actually your only example.

not surprised to see lydiate winning the poll. im sure he will get man of the tournament.

Oh deear, Irish boys are you watching it seems 19 people think Lydiate is man of the tourny so far. Rory take a look buddy.

Ps I voted for Denton!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh deear, Irish boys are you watching it seems 19 people think Lydiate is man of the tourny so far. Rory take a look buddy.

Ps I voted for Denton!

Ouch.

Just further proves my point he is majorly overrated by the welsh.. I would be interested to see if any of those votes are not by welsh fans. The "tackling machine" has been totally eclipsed by Ferris in the tackle count, both in quantity and quality. Ferris has also forced many turnovers, both at the breakdown and in the choke tackle. He has been much better than the "unseen warrior" Lydiate at his own game, and offers a huge ball carrying option that Lydiate can't offer.

How could Lydiate possibly win the award when there is a player who is playing much better? Easy. Have Davies pick his usual welshman for the MOTM award, and then give the poll to the welsh fans on 606v2.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just further proves my point he is majorly overrated by the welsh.. I would be interested to see if any of those votes are not by welsh fans. The "tackling machine" has been totally eclipsed by Ferris in the tackle count, both in quantity and quality. Ferris has also forced many turnovers, both at the breakdown and in the choke tackle. He has been much better than the "unseen warrior" Lydiate at his own game, and offers a huge ball carrying option that Lydiate can't offer.

How could Lydiate possibly win the award when there is a player who is playing much better? Easy. Have Davies pick his usual welshman for the MOTM award, and then give the poll to the welsh fans on 606v2.

Rory, Lydiate's also Jeremy Guscott's man of the tournament so far. Not saying I agree with that but there are plenty of non-Welsh pundits who rate him very highly as well. As previously stated I agree that Ferris is a better all round player but are you in danger of being overly critical of Lydiate??

I rate Lydiate as a good player, so no I don't think I am being overly critical. I am saying what you are saying. There are better players in his position, who do the "unseen" work he does and more. I am also saying that he is majorly overrated by the welsh. Which he is.

Clearly we all agree that it is perhaps the most absurd way to choose a player of the tournament. It is a regime employed by people who do not understand the game and often leads to a meaningless result.

Out of the absurd list my choice would be Ross Rennie - simply outstanding in all the games i've seen him play this tournament.

Number one would be another Scot - Richie Gray, again I think the majority agree on this one. He's been unrivalled in the SR this tournament.

Odd though that a) no English players have won MOTM awards so far when winning; and b) that Scotland probably has the top two players in the tournament even though they're battling against the wooden spoon!

Chje131

You make a very good point. Scotland have 2/3 stand out players at the moment, mainly because the pack isn't going very well and they have had to.

If Ferris's tackle count is as high as you say it is Rory, does that make him Irelands Parisse? and if so surely we should give him less credit for standing out in a team that have only beaten the bottom teams, and have leaked tries.

Regarding his 'quality' of tackle, yes he must tackle much better than Lydiate, especially the match winner V Wales! In the 80th minute you should have the discipline to just do the basics, why risk it with a borderline tip. I personally don't think it was that bad but it's his own fault for taking the risk.

Regarding no English players in the list, the only stand out players for me have been Tuilagi and Farell, and Tuilagi makes more mistakes than he does good. Farell is very hard done by but he hasn'e single handedly won games, his pack has been going well, Dickson is providing him with good ball, and Baritt has been very good outside him so I think it's the cas of the units going better than the individuals.

Thats what Rory can't grasp. He hides behind stats and conjecture about his beloved Ferris!

Indeed spot on theblues, it comes down to the sum of the parts etc etc...

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chje131

You make a very good point. Scotland have 2/3 stand out players at the moment, mainly because the pack isn't going very well and they have had to.

Dispute that comment. Our Scrum has been ok, Lineout has been fantastic and the Breakdown and Contact area has been our Strength.

It's the backs that have let Scotland down.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I rate Lydiate as a good player, so no I don't think I am being overly critical. I am saying what you are saying. There are better players in his position, who do the "unseen" work he does and more. I am also saying that he is majorly overrated by the welsh. Which he is.

Not sure I'm saying quite what you're saying Rory (other than rating ferris very highly). I actually do think lydiate is a "tackle machine" and "unseen warrior" whereas I suspect you were being slightly sarcastic??

I am not being sarcastic because that is exactly why he is a good player. He makes a lot of tackles and does a lot of good work at the breakdown. He hasn't done as much recently though, and he needs to add more to his game in general, because most good 6s in the world do the exact same type of work he does and offer a lot more. That is why it is a bit of a joke welsh fans think he is the player of the tournament, and that he is some sort of player that does something no other 6 does. All 6s are required to do what Lydiate does. Most offer more in attack also.

But Rory you don't tend to be listening!!!

You can only do as much work as is in front of you, put Ferris in the Wales team and his stats drop dramatically also, because there are more tacklers around him, and many more ball carriers, not just in the pack but out wide.

Ferris is having to make all those tackles because those around him are not doing so...

Why do you think Martyn Williams was sooo important to Wales? Because he didn't have the players around him to share the work with.

Wales is a settled team where each player knows their role, they trust the others either side of them to do their job and therefore individuals stand out less.

So what is it that Lydiate is doing if there is apparently no work for him? Even though Faletau has a huge tackle count this 6 nations.. and yes I did read your description of why he makes more tackles, but I don't think that would get him that many more tackles. Lydiate is known as the unseen warrior. So what is he doing if he apparently has no work to do?

Bluesman, I am sorry but I cannot agree with you, by your logic then Lydiate and Warburton were slacking in the RWC on defence because as I remember it, Faletau was by far your best defender in number of tackles.

Billtong

Actually your wrong, Charteris was the WC's highest tackler.

They don't need to be slacking, Warburton puts his shift in on the ground, he gets into the holes nobody wants to put his head, and doesn't go in as tackler or assistant tackler a lot of the time but first man. He could not do this if Lydiate didn't stay disciplined and work the defencive line as he does. If you watch Lydiate he likes to leave the guard and 2nd guard do their jobs, he gets on their shoulder and runs the blitz, watch where the calls come from, watch how he likes to keep hi eye on the ball, and others follow his lead. At this position teams generally go wider and depper, or carry up narrow to avoid the blitz, so teams avoid his area, which is an area of defencive strength.

Also Rory

Falatau has played one game more this tourny against the best attacking team we have come up against. something around a 100 tackles made by us wasn't it.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chje131

You make a very good point. Scotland have 2/3 stand out players at the moment, mainly because the pack isn't going very well and they have had to.

Dispute that comment. Our Scrum has been ok, Lineout has been fantastic and the Breakdown and Contact area has been our Strength.

It's the backs that have let Scotland down.

Agreed! I don't get that logic at all, If Richie Gray were playing for Wales or France he'd still standout as a top contender for player of the tournament. To say the main reason a select few Scottish players have stood out because they've had to pick up the other player workload is simply not true.

Gray and Denton are renound for their defencive efforts as much as anything else, within a better team they wouldn't standout as much, within the Welsh defence they would slot in nicely, but they would not be needed to make last ditch tackles etc..

Weaker teams put these players into situations they wouldn't be in in stronger teams.

Look at Scotlands issues at present, they have no powerfull dynamic ball carriers in the tight, Gray is really the only one, therefore he carries more often than his counterparts. If the Scottish backline had the sort of ball carriers the Welsh team have Gray wouldn't do half of the carrying he is now!

I think the English players are not poor because none have got into this list, it's just they are doing their jobs and working well together as units and therefore none are standing out individually!

monty junior wrote:Why on earth is Richie Gray not on that list? standout player in every Scotland game i watch.

That's what exactly what I was going to say, and the person I was going to vote for.

You could put a case forward for O'Conell also, he has been brilliant this season.

Mike Phillips really?

How about a team of the tournament then? Mine would be:

Kearney (tough on Halfpenny)
Cuthbert
J. Davies
Fofana
North
Farrell
Reddan?? (no outstanding candidates here)

Healy
Ford
Cole
Grey
Maestri
Lydiate
Rennie
Denton

From the list I'd go with Lydiate or Denton.
Personally, I think JD2 has been exceptional and would be my choice if he could be picked.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Gray and Denton are renound for their defencive efforts as much as anything else, within a better team they wouldn't standout as much, within the Welsh defence they would slot in nicely, but they would not be needed to make last ditch tackles etc..

Weaker teams put these players into situations they wouldn't be in in stronger teams.

Look at Scotlands issues at present, they have no powerfull dynamic ball carriers in the tight, Gray is really the only one, therefore he carries more often than his counterparts. If the Scottish backline had the sort of ball carriers the Welsh team have Gray wouldn't do half of the carrying he is now!

Wow - that is some logic

Gray is not just renown for his defensive effort - 35 line out won - none lost -8 distruped balls on the opposition line out - scored a blistering try - skinning Kearney - lots of yards made - tackles made, link man

In fact - by far the best player in the 6 nations so far

Denton is re-known for his running

Using your logic you could say that the Wales front row are only that good because there are knock ons - and if they did not know on, no scrums so no need for them

Yours is the strangest logic I have ever heard

Two players that i feel are really missing on this list is Richie Gray who has been immence and will hopefully be Scotland captain and Stephan Ferris who has been absolutely outstanding the whole tournement.