My top 5 outhalfs in the world.

First topic message reminder :

1.Carter-enough said.
2.Sexton-has all the qualities needed to be a brilliant flyhalf.
3.Nick Evans-wasting his time at Harlequins when he could be playing at the highest level.
4.Farrell-already looks like the real deal,plus there is no one else.
5.O'Gara-past it, (except for the last minute drop goals) but it isn't like I am going to pick Cooper.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:1. Carter
2. Sexton
3. Madigan
4. ROG
5. Humphreys (Ian)

OK, you nearly had me until the last one, rodders

roddersm wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:
ROG was good, probably a top 6-10 rather than a top 5 but his generation of flyhalf has thrown up some great players.

I actually think that does ROG a diservice. I'd put ROG top 3 at times, maybe higher.

I've rarely seen a fly half who could just totally dominate games with his tactical kicking and brain. He has been pivotal to a Munster team which reached 4 HEC finals in a decade. Some of his performances have just been fly half masterclasses.

His place kicking is top class, particularly.... and this is key, under big,big pressure. In fact I can't think of many players I'd rather have kick a winning drop goal or penalty in a huge game.

His distribution is excellent too and he has a fair old try tally at International level which he ralrely gets credit for.

Yes he has his obvious physical deficencies and the Lions tours didn't go great for him but hes been a top fly half for a long time.

you're right about his Munster deeds but, is he just a damn fine club player who sometimes shined at Intl level? I mean, he didn't really run the show all that well at the 2007 wc? Is he Ireland's Charlie Hodgson?

Is Ireland's lack of success down under down to the fact that until now there hasn't been a better flyhalf than ROG? I may be being harsh but I can even look to NZ in this instance; In 1994 we had simon mannix (!!!!!) start against France in the first test. mannix is s.h.i.t personified but we’d rid ourselves of Grant Fox the year before and Marc Ellis was either injured or still being blamed for the loss to England in November. We had world class players all around but we had.........mannix (I refuse to do his initial letter in capitals because he is crap) and the result is we lost. Steve Bachop brought in the next week, same result. Luckily Bachop got better but he was still a stopgap until Merhtens stepped up. You can't expect to win games consistently if your flyhalf is inconsistent

beshocked wrote:

offload wrote:Farrel in the top 5?

Top 5 in England maybe. After two tests the most you can say is he that he did OK, not fantastic, but promising.

The following is a short list of the many other fly halves ahead of him
Lamb
Evans
Jones
Cooper
Arlidge
Priestland
Lambie
Parra
Weepu

And some of those are only part time 10's

Offload your list is a load of rubbish. It's tough to gauge exactly where Farrell is in regards to other fly halves.Certainly above most of the jokers you suggest.

Evans is better but I don't think Evans as good as everyone makes out.

Cooper - as someone already said. On his day he is immense, when off song he is appalling. Farrell is more consistent. Perfect example of consistency vs potential.

Priestland? Farrell completely outplayed him in their recent encounter. Making Priestland look like an absolute fool. Priestland is still arguably ahead but that recent humiliation is a good case for Farrell.

Lamb? No way. If Lamb was that good he would be on the England radar instead of being 2nd fiddle to Myler at Saints.

Jones is no longer good enough for Wales so irrelevant. Farrell is better.

Arlidge - admittedly know little about him but after reading his wiki he doesnt seem anything special at all. Plying his trade for Nottingham as a 32 year old doesnt tell me he's better than Farrell.

Parra and Weepu are scrum halves. Neither are better than Farrell.

All the Farrell haters don't like the young England prospect do well. He probably isn't top 5 but might just sneak into top 10 based on the 6 nations. Of course it's debatable. What is not debatable is that Farrell is ahead of most of the mediocre names you came up with Offload.

Beshocked - thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry I will try to signpost my irony a little more next time.

Barnes is decent but he isn't a regular enough starter to know how good he is. That said I reckon he is a better option than Cooper who is ridiculously over rated.

If Sexton can keep his International kicking percentages in the high 80s then he will be up there with the most all round talented OHs out there second only to Carter.

In the NH Priestland and Farrell are possibly slightly behind Sexton but in the top 3 or 4 NH OHs.

Trin Duc is quite underrated in my opinion.

NH

Sexton
Priestland/Farrell/Trin Duc
Flood/OGara/Biggar
Laidlaw/Parks

In the South

Carter
Barnes/Lambie/Hernandez/Contepomi
Steyn/Cooper
Slade/Cruden

chewed_mintie wrote:

roddersm wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:
ROG was good, probably a top 6-10 rather than a top 5 but his generation of flyhalf has thrown up some great players.

I actually think that does ROG a diservice. I'd put ROG top 3 at times, maybe higher.

I've rarely seen a fly half who could just totally dominate games with his tactical kicking and brain. He has been pivotal to a Munster team which reached 4 HEC finals in a decade. Some of his performances have just been fly half masterclasses.

His place kicking is top class, particularly.... and this is key, under big,big pressure. In fact I can't think of many players I'd rather have kick a winning drop goal or penalty in a huge game.

His distribution is excellent too and he has a fair old try tally at International level which he ralrely gets credit for.

Yes he has his obvious physical deficencies and the Lions tours didn't go great for him but hes been a top fly half for a long time.

you're right about his Munster deeds but, is he just a damn fine club player who sometimes shined at Intl level? I mean, he didn't really run the show all that well at the 2007 wc? Is he Ireland's Charlie Hodgson?

Is Ireland's lack of success down under down to the fact that until now there hasn't been a better flyhalf than ROG?

Ireland has had some fairly handy OHs who haven't managed to beat SH competition down there. For the record, he was top try scorer and points scorer in the 2007 6Ns. He wasn't the only Irish player to have a bad world cup in 2007. I hope in 4 years time people won't be saying the same thing about Sexton in 2011 because he did have a very poor world cup (and bear in mind, O'Gara came on as the OH a bit after half-time (48 mins) against Australia and was the starting OH against Italy).

Fact are that Ireland had some great wins with O'Gara at OH. In 2002 against Australia for instance, when O'Gara scored all points in the game was a new experience for Ireland. *David Humphreys was not the starting OH for Ireland in 2002)*

I think its actually laughable that people put defence above game management & tactics as an attribute for a good outhalf. And your comparision to Hodgson is way off. The big defiency in Hodgson's game is that he doesn't have the temperment for big games/international rugby.

offload wrote:

beshocked wrote:

offload wrote:Farrel in the top 5?

Top 5 in England maybe. After two tests the most you can say is he that he did OK, not fantastic, but promising.

The following is a short list of the many other fly halves ahead of him
Lamb
Evans
Jones
Cooper
Arlidge
Priestland
Lambie
Parra
Weepu

And some of those are only part time 10's

Offload your list is a load of rubbish. It's tough to gauge exactly where Farrell is in regards to other fly halves.Certainly above most of the jokers you suggest.

Evans is better but I don't think Evans as good as everyone makes out.

Cooper - as someone already said. On his day he is immense, when off song he is appalling. Farrell is more consistent. Perfect example of consistency vs potential.

Priestland? Farrell completely outplayed him in their recent encounter. Making Priestland look like an absolute fool. Priestland is still arguably ahead but that recent humiliation is a good case for Farrell.

Lamb? No way. If Lamb was that good he would be on the England radar instead of being 2nd fiddle to Myler at Saints.

Jones is no longer good enough for Wales so irrelevant. Farrell is better.

Arlidge - admittedly know little about him but after reading his wiki he doesnt seem anything special at all. Plying his trade for Nottingham as a 32 year old doesnt tell me he's better than Farrell.

Parra and Weepu are scrum halves. Neither are better than Farrell.

All the Farrell haters don't like the young England prospect do well. He probably isn't top 5 but might just sneak into top 10 based on the 6 nations. Of course it's debatable. What is not debatable is that Farrell is ahead of most of the mediocre names you came up with Offload.

Beshocked - thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry I will try to signpost my irony a little more next time.

I apologise I didn't get the irony. Sometimes I am as subtle as a brick. I am one of Farrell's staunchest supporters but I wouldn't have him top 5. Top 10 at a push but even that's largely debatable.

Leinsterbaby where would you fit Charlie Hodgson into the mix? Certainly better than Biggar who he outplayed x2 in the HC.

chewed_mintie wrote:
you're right about his Munster deeds but, is he just a damn fine club player who sometimes shined at Intl level? I mean, he didn't really run the show all that well at the 2007 wc? Is he Ireland's Charlie Hodgson?

Well in my opinion there's no comparison with Hodgson.

I think its a fair comment about the 2007 RWC. However over 13 seasons and 120odd caps any player will have their ups and downs.

In terms of Ireland there was certainly a spell where I felt he was a better and more important player than O'Driscoll (2008 I think or maybe 2006/7?).

I think the game has moved on and Sexton is much better now but if you are looking at the past decade then for me ROG is very near the top of the tree. In Europe for sure there is a fair argument that he has been the best.

aucklandlaurie wrote: taylorman
I have the utmost respect for O'Connor in all aspects of what he brings to a team and for a young fulla he brings a lot of maturity to his game.He was the second highest scorer in the World Cup (behind Morne Steyn). i watched steyn last weekend at Loftus get upstaged by a young goalkicker playing his first game of Super rugby.
My bottom line is I'd go with O'Connor,I'd trust that Ciprianni as far I can kick a bag of cement.

A lot of us in England feel similarly

I think Hodgson, Jones and Biggar are around the same level. Reliable, good all round, very consistent but unspectacular. All very good players in my opinion.

chewed_mintie wrote:

Is Ireland's lack of success down under down to the fact that until now there hasn't been a better flyhalf than ROG? I may be being harsh but I can even look to NZ in this instance; In 1994 we had simon mannix (!!!!!) start against France in the first test. mannix is s.h.i.t personified but we’d rid ourselves of Grant Fox the year before and Marc Ellis was either injured or still being blamed for the loss to England in November. We had world class players all around but we had.........mannix (I refuse to do his initial letter in capitals because he is crap) and the result is we lost. Steve Bachop brought in the next week, same result. Luckily Bachop got better but he was still a stopgap until Merhtens stepped up. You can't expect to win games consistently if your flyhalf is inconsistent

well you will be please to know that simon mannix is heading back to NZ after a spell as backcoach of Racing Metro (he was fired end of last year).

beshocked wrote:
I apologise I didn't get the irony. Sometimes I am as subtle as a brick.

You mean as subtle as a bull horn at a prayer meeting?

Stephen Jones was a brilliant player to be fair. Twice lions test fly half and two time GS winner. Massively underrated and a really complete player.

He's past his best now but he was right up there too. He and ROG, along with Wilkinson are the 3 best of their generation in the NH imo.

Hodgson, Biggar etc don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

roddersm wrote:Stephen Jones was a brilliant player to be fair. Twice lions test fly half and two time GS winner. Massively underrated and a really complete player.

He's past his best now but he was right up there too. He and ROG, along with Wilkinson are the 3 best of their generation in the NH imo.

Hodgson, Biggar etc don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

They do when you are picking on current form. Jones was a class act alright.

I would be pleased by that! Pleased that I no longer have to share the same continent with him! It makes it more difficult to consider moving back to NZ also! I dislike him but not as much as I dislike his younger brother Ollie

Sorry, but am I missing something with the (mainly SH) posters who are putting Nick Evans up there in the Top 5. Now I'll admit I never saw much of Evans in his NZ days, but since he's been playing in the NH he's been at best a decent club level 10. When he plays at the top level in Europe - and that means the HC - he certainly hasn't shown anything that would justify putting him into a world top 5. Jeez, Quins and Evans even bottled against the worst team in Ireland to blow the opportunity of a HC quarter-final slot.

brennomac wrote:Sorry, but am I missing something with the (mainly SH) posters who are putting Nick Evans up there in the Top 5. Now I'll admit I never saw much of Evans in his NZ days, but since he's been playing in the NH he's been at best a decent club level 10. When he plays at the top level in Europe - and that means the HC - he certainly hasn't shown anything that would justify putting him into a world top 5. Jeez, Quins and Evans even bottled against the worst team in Ireland to blow the opportunity of a HC quarter-final slot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP3YtGsu2AE&list=PLEF0C7A369D744E85&index=21&feature=plpp_video

You are entitled to your opinion. But I'd hope that most people who have watched any AP games in the last 4 years would say that calling him a "decent club level 10 at best" is frankly insulting. We don't have any superstars at Quins, until (and in fact even now) this year we have had few internationals lately and Evans still gets us performing well against the best sides in Europe. He has played for the ABs where he put in some MotM performances for them (some at FB admittedly) and he was a dangerous dangerous player when I saw him play for the Auckland Blues. He is currently a little off form but still hits the kicks that matter, has one of the best tactical kicking games in the world (sorry ROG, IMO far far better than you, one who lost us a Lions Tour...), pace, gets the exciting Quins backline moving (and we don't have a dominant monster pack to help him), wins games alone at the highest level. He can do anything. I'm genuinely incensed, for pretty much the first time on this board, that you can call him "decent" (name a better Club level 10 in England? Hell, even Europe...), "Club Level" when he has All Black caps (only 16 but he plays in the same position as one of the better 10s of all time) and then to say "at best" when you know he has beaten Stade Francais home and away (both from his kicking) in the HEC as well as Toulouse away in the same competition and Munster and Stade again in winning the Amlin Cup. Quins play sooooooooooooooooooooo much worse when he isn't there or is off form like he has been since he got injured after Christmas. He is the key player, for me, in our greater than the sum of its parts team. I now need to go and calm down

EDIT: Brain Moore agrees- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8873229/Harlequins-Nick-Evans-second-to-only-New-Zealands-Dan-Carter-as-a-great-dictator.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DiJvHMXPw

not a fine vintage at the moment at all.

1) Carter - By a country mile
2) Sexton - For his performances in HC wins albeit not quite reached heights in green yet
3) Morne Steynh - For Goal kicking under pressure not much else. does basics well
4) Rog - No better man to bring on in the last 20.
5) Cooper - Complete madman but fantastic to watch and superb in attack. still a lot to learn and brittle under pressure

So basically, there is Dan Carter....and then quite a way back, the rest

mr_stonelea wrote:So basically, there is Dan Carter....and then quite a way back, the rest

Yup.

in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

I think we are also a lot less tolerant of defensive frailty in a 10 now, which means that a lot of very promising players don't get their chance at the highest level, and you need to play with and against players better (or at least as good) than yourself to get better

dublin_dave wrote:in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

IMO 3-4 years ago OGara was dreadful for Ireland. The 07 WC really was a low point in his career. If anything he has improved since Sexton has arrived on the scene.

leinsterbaby wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

IMO 3-4 years ago OGara was dreadful for Ireland. The 07 WC really was a low point in his career. If anything he has improved since Sexton has arrived on the scene.

He was dire in the RWC 2007, certainly. Still never going to forgive him for that kick then tackle in the air against SA in 2009. What a pillock

Just watching JOC highlights. He is soooo good, though obviously he plays pretty much everywhere but he is a bloody good 10 as well as 11, 14, 12, 13 and 15

ChequeredJersey wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

IMO 3-4 years ago OGara was dreadful for Ireland. The 07 WC really was a low point in his career. If anything he has improved since Sexton has arrived on the scene.

He was dire in the RWC 2007, certainly. Still never going to forgive him for that kick then tackle in the air against SA in 2009. What a pillock

Don't blame him really. You do strange things when concussed. We threw that match away before he was subbed on anyway.

hugo124 wrote:Barnes is no more than an average player

I'm amazed you can have watched him play and then say that about him.

You have watched him play, right?

I am assuming you are talking about berrick Barnes?

biltongbek wrote:I am assuming you are talking about berrick Barnes?

Yeah. What do you think of him? You are a moderator. When that happen?

It's interesting that ex-French coach Bernard Laporte holds similar views to those expressed by most on here: that there is a general lack of very good FHs around at the moment. roughly translated: "yes, they [good FHs] are rare. but they are rare around the world." Interestingly, he says Farrell "has some good qualities" but doesn't seem to rate Sexton or Lambie that high "Lambie isn't better than anything we have [in France]".

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Laporte-une-denree-rare/269961 for the full interview (for those who speak French).

leinsterbaby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I am assuming you are talking about berrick Barnes?

Yeah. What do you think of him? You are a moderator. When that happen?

a few weeks back, I think Barnes is better at 12, he provides another option for distibution and a good back up for when cooper goes awol.

He is also a good defender and distributor.

My view, O'Connor is australia's best outhalf for consistency.

Yeah, but Laporte was hardly the most exciting of Rench coaches was he? His idea of an ideal 10 is hardly the ideal benchmark!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah, but Laporte was hardly the most exciting of Rench coaches was he? His idea of an ideal 10 is hardly the ideal benchmark!

well, yes and no really. He was the one who originally brought in Michalak in the 03 world cup and there's no doubt France played some exciting rugby there. However, in the semi-final, in poor conditions, playing behind a pack that was going backwards (up against a formidable English pack) he had a bit of a nightmare. Unfortunately, Laporte then treated him very poorly. Similar in 07, Michalak played some good games in the group stages, but in the QF France went with a kicking game (and Beauxis), duly beat NZ, and instead of trying to run rings around an ageing England side thought they should try the same game-plan there.

So while Laporte did go conservative (mostly after the 03 world cup), let's not forget that he was the one who gave Michalak (certainly one of the more exciting FHs of the last ten years) his chance.

This might surprise a few of you, but michalack is Lambie's scrum half this season for the sharks

biltongbek wrote:This might surprise a few of you, but michalack is Lambie's scrum half this season for the sharks

Knew Michalak could play 9 and 10. How is he playing?

I think he is a good nine, but I have always liked his general play, so pretty much anthing he does looks half decent to me.

leinsterbaby wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

IMO 3-4 years ago OGara was dreadful for Ireland. The 07 WC really was a low point in his career. If anything he has improved since Sexton has arrived on the scene.

No he wasn't. In the '07 6Ns he was top try & points scorer.

Pretty much every Irish player was poor for the rugby world cup in '07, not just O'Gara and none of the rest of them had to put up with the Poopie he was getting from the press about his private life.

Big deal if he was top try scorer in 07 six nations, he was our worst player at the WC. Went completely AWOL. He was quite poor in 08 and very inconsistent in 09. His form really has improved since he was dropped.

Michalak is doing very well down under, his style of play suits the SH game.

He specifically enjoys playing for the Sharks, in fact he has been there a number of times.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Michalak is doing very well down under, his style of play suits the SH game.

He works very well as an SH for the Sharks. Though their rotation policy sees him benched this week to give Charl McLeod some game time. (My preview article will be up this evening, it's just waiting on some of the other V2 writers having a quick read for typos etc).

leinsterbaby wrote:Big deal if he was top try scorer in 07 six nations, he was our worst player at the WC. Went completely AWOL. He was quite poor in 08 and very inconsistent in 09. His form really has improved since he was dropped.

Most people think its a big deal to be top try scorer. Ask Tommy Bowe and Christ Ashton. Don't recall too many outhalfs being top try scorer in a tournament.

He won a Heineken Cup in '08 and he was fantastic (bear in mind that Paul O'Connell was injured for the group stages and he was Munster captain). You might remember that O'Connell & ROG both lifted the cup together

Only players that were anyway ok in the '07 world cup were BOD & Girvan Dempsey. The rest were poor to diabolical.

And in his very poor season of '09 Ireland still won a GS.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

brennomac wrote:Sorry, but am I missing something with the (mainly SH) posters who are putting Nick Evans up there in the Top 5. Now I'll admit I never saw much of Evans in his NZ days, but since he's been playing in the NH he's been at best a decent club level 10. When he plays at the top level in Europe - and that means the HC - he certainly hasn't shown anything that would justify putting him into a world top 5. Jeez, Quins and Evans even bottled against the worst team in Ireland to blow the opportunity of a HC quarter-final slot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP3YtGsu2AE&list=PLEF0C7A369D744E85&index=21&feature=plpp_video

You are entitled to your opinion. But I'd hope that most people who have watched any AP games in the last 4 years would say that calling him a "decent club level 10 at best" is frankly insulting. We don't have any superstars at Quins, until (and in fact even now) this year we have had few internationals lately and Evans still gets us performing well against the best sides in Europe. He has played for the ABs where he put in some MotM performances for them (some at FB admittedly) and he was a dangerous dangerous player when I saw him play for the Auckland Blues. He is currently a little off form but still hits the kicks that matter, has one of the best tactical kicking games in the world (sorry ROG, IMO far far better than you, one who lost us a Lions Tour...), pace, gets the exciting Quins backline moving (and we don't have a dominant monster pack to help him), wins games alone at the highest level. He can do anything. I'm genuinely incensed, for pretty much the first time on this board, that you can call him "decent" (name a better Club level 10 in England? Hell, even Europe...), "Club Level" when he has All Black caps (only 16 but he plays in the same position as one of the better 10s of all time) and then to say "at best" when you know he has beaten Stade Francais home and away (both from his kicking) in the HEC as well as Toulouse away in the same competition and Munster and Stade again in winning the Amlin Cup. Quins play sooooooooooooooooooooo much worse when he isn't there or is off form like he has been since he got injured after Christmas. He is the key player, for me, in our greater than the sum of its parts team. I now need to go and calm down

EDIT: Brain Moore agrees- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8873229/Harlequins-Nick-Evans-second-to-only-New-Zealands-Dan-Carter-as-a-great-dictator.html

Nick Evans has started 4 games at flyhalf for the ABs, the best team on the planet mostly. Of his 16 caps for the AB half of them were off the bench for a minute or two. Hard to judge him as an international flyhalf with that amount of gametime.

You get incensed that he is just a club level players then you go on to dismiss O'Gara

By the way, Brian moore was rating Evans as the best of the rest for NZ when carter got injured. Read the article again.

Sin é wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

brennomac wrote:Sorry, but am I missing something with the (mainly SH) posters who are putting Nick Evans up there in the Top 5. Now I'll admit I never saw much of Evans in his NZ days, but since he's been playing in the NH he's been at best a decent club level 10. When he plays at the top level in Europe - and that means the HC - he certainly hasn't shown anything that would justify putting him into a world top 5. Jeez, Quins and Evans even bottled against the worst team in Ireland to blow the opportunity of a HC quarter-final slot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP3YtGsu2AE&list=PLEF0C7A369D744E85&index=21&feature=plpp_video

You are entitled to your opinion. But I'd hope that most people who have watched any AP games in the last 4 years would say that calling him a "decent club level 10 at best" is frankly insulting. We don't have any superstars at Quins, until (and in fact even now) this year we have had few internationals lately and Evans still gets us performing well against the best sides in Europe. He has played for the ABs where he put in some MotM performances for them (some at FB admittedly) and he was a dangerous dangerous player when I saw him play for the Auckland Blues. He is currently a little off form but still hits the kicks that matter, has one of the best tactical kicking games in the world (sorry ROG, IMO far far better than you, one who lost us a Lions Tour...), pace, gets the exciting Quins backline moving (and we don't have a dominant monster pack to help him), wins games alone at the highest level. He can do anything. I'm genuinely incensed, for pretty much the first time on this board, that you can call him "decent" (name a better Club level 10 in England? Hell, even Europe...), "Club Level" when he has All Black caps (only 16 but he plays in the same position as one of the better 10s of all time) and then to say "at best" when you know he has beaten Stade Francais home and away (both from his kicking) in the HEC as well as Toulouse away in the same competition and Munster and Stade again in winning the Amlin Cup. Quins play sooooooooooooooooooooo much worse when he isn't there or is off form like he has been since he got injured after Christmas. He is the key player, for me, in our greater than the sum of its parts team. I now need to go and calm down

EDIT: Brain Moore agrees- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8873229/Harlequins-Nick-Evans-second-to-only-New-Zealands-Dan-Carter-as-a-great-dictator.html

Nick Evans has started 4 games at flyhalf for the ABs, the best team on the planet mostly. Of his 16 caps for the AB half of them were off the bench for a minute or two. Hard to judge him as an international flyhalf with that amount of gametime.

You get incensed that he is just a club level players then you go on to dismiss O'Gara

By the way, Brian moore was rating Evans as the best of the rest for NZ when carter got injured. Read the article again.

I hardly dismissed O Gara, I agreed with another poster who stated that 2007-8 were hardly his glory years! The other points are fair though

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:in a nutshell mr stonelea.

nobody to touch wilkinson,larkham,o gara of 3/4 years ago.

Sexton closest to that standard but not quite there yet. Farrell is promising but still a bit early to say.

IMO 3-4 years ago OGara was dreadful for Ireland. The 07 WC really was a low point in his career. If anything he has improved since Sexton has arrived on the scene.

No he wasn't. In the '07 6Ns he was top try & points scorer.

Pretty much every Irish player was poor for the rugby world cup in '07, not just O'Gara and none of the rest of them had to put up with the Poopie he was getting from the press about his private life.

He was atrocious in the RWC 2007- that doesn't mean he isn't a very good player, I even put him as option for greatest 10s of all time. Ashton scored the most tries in the 2011 6N as you point out. That doesn't mean he had a fantastic 2011 because he was also subpar for his standards (not helped by his teammates) in the RWC which is far far more important than any given 6 N

Not read the whole thread but Farrell? yes he looks OK but by no means a complete player but its far too soon to say he is top 5 in the world. He hasn't done enough to be sure of top five in the home nations.

We need to see a lot more from him to think he is that good.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

brennomac wrote:Sorry, but am I missing something with the (mainly SH) posters who are putting Nick Evans up there in the Top 5. Now I'll admit I never saw much of Evans in his NZ days, but since he's been playing in the NH he's been at best a decent club level 10. When he plays at the top level in Europe - and that means the HC - he certainly hasn't shown anything that would justify putting him into a world top 5. Jeez, Quins and Evans even bottled against the worst team in Ireland to blow the opportunity of a HC quarter-final slot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP3YtGsu2AE&list=PLEF0C7A369D744E85&index=21&feature=plpp_video

You are entitled to your opinion. But I'd hope that most people who have watched any AP games in the last 4 years would say that calling him a "decent club level 10 at best" is frankly insulting. We don't have any superstars at Quins, until (and in fact even now) this year we have had few internationals lately and Evans still gets us performing well against the best sides in Europe. He has played for the ABs where he put in some MotM performances for them (some at FB admittedly) and he was a dangerous dangerous player when I saw him play for the Auckland Blues. He is currently a little off form but still hits the kicks that matter, has one of the best tactical kicking games in the world (sorry ROG, IMO far far better than you, one who lost us a Lions Tour...), pace, gets the exciting Quins backline moving (and we don't have a dominant monster pack to help him), wins games alone at the highest level. He can do anything. I'm genuinely incensed, for pretty much the first time on this board, that you can call him "decent" (name a better Club level 10 in England? Hell, even Europe...), "Club Level" when he has All Black caps (only 16 but he plays in the same position as one of the better 10s of all time) and then to say "at best" when you know he has beaten Stade Francais home and away (both from his kicking) in the HEC as well as Toulouse away in the same competition and Munster and Stade again in winning the Amlin Cup. Quins play sooooooooooooooooooooo much worse when he isn't there or is off form like he has been since he got injured after Christmas. He is the key player, for me, in our greater than the sum of its parts team. I now need to go and calm down

EDIT: Brain Moore agrees- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8873229/Harlequins-Nick-Evans-second-to-only-New-Zealands-Dan-Carter-as-a-great-dictator.html

Nick Evans has started 4 games at flyhalf for the ABs, the best team on the planet mostly. Of his 16 caps for the AB half of them were off the bench for a minute or two. Hard to judge him as an international flyhalf with that amount of gametime.

You get incensed that he is just a club level players then you go on to dismiss O'Gara

By the way, Brian moore was rating Evans as the best of the rest for NZ when carter got injured. Read the article again.

I hardly dismissed O Gara, I agreed with another poster who stated that 2007-8 were hardly his glory years! The other points are fair though

You have high standards. You think winning a Heineken Cup ('08), having captained the team when your most influencial player and captain (POC) is missing is a poor season having had an appalling world cup

biltongbek wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

hugo124 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:sorry mate, but if you don't know I can't help you.

It would take less words to write the name of the team than writing that... and frankly, I feel that is disrespectful and I think you should be banned! rumour has it, its easy enough for that to happen

Sorry you deserved that - to start a thread on World Class 10's and not even know who Lambie is is comical and shows you are ill equipped to start such a thread

For the record:

Carter
Evans
Hernandez
Cooper
Lambie

no NH 10 is good enough.

Thank you Geoff, I was too afraid to respond, as he was going to ban me.

But yeah, that is pretty much what I meant

Hernandez had one brilliant season(rwc07), but has just fell apart since and is not the player he was.
Evans can't be second because he has never been tested at international level.In that case, Sexton would be number 1 in the world, as he performs consistently better than Evans for Leinster.Stupid comment.
Cooper wouldn't is 50/50, but realistically I wouldn't want him on my team.
Lambie hasn't enough tests at the highest level yet.You will probably say neither has Farrell but Farrell killed Hardinordoquy, show me Lambie doing that and I will put him in my top 5.

No worries Hugo, it isn't that important, he has his whole career ahead of him and there will be plenty opportunity for him to be n top 5 lists.

I'd say Lambies D is as good as Farrells. Both very impressive for their size and age. He made some brilliant tackles at the last tri nations.