Grant Holt for England

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How on earth can he be ignored! Two more goals today against Wolves!
Second highest English scorer in the Premier League
Why shouldn't he be on the plane?

I think based on this season's performances, Holt at the very least deserves a go in one of the pre-tournament warm-up games.

I think he's a better player with his back to goal than Crouch, although I have the same concerns about both at international level - relative lack of pace and mobility, a style that could easily get them on the wrong side of the ref (moreso at international level than in the EPL), and the fact that our defenders are (usually) such poor passers of the ball that they will resort to lumping high balls up the middle for the big centre forward, which is not a good approach against teams such as Spain or the Netherlands, where you won't get the ball back for 5 minutes.

I think Holt would work better as part of a 4-4-2 with Rooney and 2 wide men, rather than as the focal point of a 4-3-3.

The big problem is that we just lack quality forwards at the moment - in Rooney's absence, there are a couple of promising youngsters (Sturridge in particular), established forwards who are just coming back from injury (Defoe and Bent) or guys like Carroll who aren't in very good form. I just don't think Welbeck is good enough, and think he'll soon be on his way out of Man U.

Crimey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I still can't see how he has any single quality good enough to handle the top of the international stage.

His goalscoring ability in the Premier League, he has scored more goals than Welbeck, Crouch, Carroll and Defoe this year.

Agree re Carroll (and may be Welbeck) but Defoe has barely played this year (but does have a proven EPL track record) and Crouch has a proven record over several seasons including at international level.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If you're looking to take a big man up front then it has to be Crouch, may not have an outstanding scoring record this year but unlike Holt you know exactly what to expect from him at international level. For me players like Sturridge and Welbeck offer more to a team than Holt does and have a necessity for international level and that is pace.

Rooney doesnt have blistering pace, Owen didnt for most of his England career, Shearer certainly never did. Van Persie isnt quick. You can be a great striker without pace, (not saying Holt is a great striker by the way but we really do have a dearth if talent right now) its as much about instinct and also how the team is set up.

There's a difference between blistering, a turn of pace and slow. None of those mentioned are slow, all have a good turn of pace (Shearer pre-ligament injury) whilst Owen was (again, pre-injury) blisteringly quick. Holt is somewhere between 'slow' and 'turn of pace' and I still can't see how he has any single quality good enough to handle the top of the international stage.

The England Euro 96 side that destroyed Holland had hardly any pace, Shearer never really had any by then and Sheringham never did. If a team can play well enough to stretch a side and a striker knows where he should be then goals will come. Fowler is a classic example of how a good striker with no pace can find space.
You wont know what Holt can do at international level unless you give him a go, I think you are probably right but people would have said exactly the same thing about Crouch and he has done OK.

I don't think Welbeck is as good a forward as some people think, but would rather have him up front than Sturridge who is quite possibly the most selfish player I have ever watched at a top level. It's like he's that kid on the playground who would just never pass the ball, always going for glory himself, he must frustrate his team mates so much.

It really doesn't matter who England play up front if they play 4-4-2 they won't see enough of the ball against the better teams to make any impact on the tournament. You need 3 men in the middle of the park which leaves no room Holt.

Diggers wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If you're looking to take a big man up front then it has to be Crouch, may not have an outstanding scoring record this year but unlike Holt you know exactly what to expect from him at international level. For me players like Sturridge and Welbeck offer more to a team than Holt does and have a necessity for international level and that is pace.

Rooney doesnt have blistering pace, Owen didnt for most of his England career, Shearer certainly never did. Van Persie isnt quick. You can be a great striker without pace, (not saying Holt is a great striker by the way but we really do have a dearth if talent right now) its as much about instinct and also how the team is set up.

There's a difference between blistering, a turn of pace and slow. None of those mentioned are slow, all have a good turn of pace (Shearer pre-ligament injury) whilst Owen was (again, pre-injury) blisteringly quick. Holt is somewhere between 'slow' and 'turn of pace' and I still can't see how he has any single quality good enough to handle the top of the international stage.

The England Euro 96 side that destroyed Holland had hardly any pace, Shearer never really had any by then and Sheringham never did. If a team can play well enough to stretch a side and a striker knows where he should be then goals will come. Fowler is a classic example of how a good striker with no pace can find space.
You wont know what Holt can do at international level unless you give him a go, I think you are probably right but people would have said exactly the same thing about Crouch and he has done OK.

Fowler wasn't slow, at all, from memory. But then again I'm not a Liverpool fan - maybe someone on here who is could cast a more expert opinion?

Not saying he was pacey, or relied on pace, but I don't ever remember his being short of pace. Smart lad too, unusual for a footballer!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Diggers wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If you're looking to take a big man up front then it has to be Crouch, may not have an outstanding scoring record this year but unlike Holt you know exactly what to expect from him at international level. For me players like Sturridge and Welbeck offer more to a team than Holt does and have a necessity for international level and that is pace.

Rooney doesnt have blistering pace, Owen didnt for most of his England career, Shearer certainly never did. Van Persie isnt quick. You can be a great striker without pace, (not saying Holt is a great striker by the way but we really do have a dearth if talent right now) its as much about instinct and also how the team is set up.

There's a difference between blistering, a turn of pace and slow. None of those mentioned are slow, all have a good turn of pace (Shearer pre-ligament injury) whilst Owen was (again, pre-injury) blisteringly quick. Holt is somewhere between 'slow' and 'turn of pace' and I still can't see how he has any single quality good enough to handle the top of the international stage.

The England Euro 96 side that destroyed Holland had hardly any pace, Shearer never really had any by then and Sheringham never did. If a team can play well enough to stretch a side and a striker knows where he should be then goals will come. Fowler is a classic example of how a good striker with no pace can find space.
You wont know what Holt can do at international level unless you give him a go, I think you are probably right but people would have said exactly the same thing about Crouch and he has done OK.

Fowler wasn't slow, at all, from memory. But then again I'm not a Liverpool fan - maybe someone on here who is could cast a more expert opinion?

Not saying he was pacey, or relied on pace, but I don't ever remember his being short of pace. Smart lad too, unusual for a footballer!

Fowler had a good turn of pace but wasn't a sprinter over 10 yards he was fine any more than that and he struggled. He had very good feet and good awareness he made space for himself very well which made him look quicker than he was.

I agree he looked quicker than he was because he knew how to find space, but he usually drifted into space, he didnt have to sprint into it.

Don't care whether he's good enough, but this should happen just so we can get two ex-Shrews in the same England team.

If we are going to play 4-4-2 Holt would be good, if we are going to play 4-3-3 Holt shouldnt play.

I like 4-4-2, because as Norwich showed yesterday you can be a real attacking force and if you work hard enough you can be solid at the back as well.

ollyrules wrote:If we are going to play 4-4-2 Holt would be good, if we are going to play 4-3-3 Holt shouldnt play.

I like 4-4-2, because as Norwich showed yesterday you can be a real attacking force and if you work hard enough you can be solid at the back as well.

You can't play 4-4-2 against the top sides you won't see the ball you need three men in the middle of the park.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:If we are going to play 4-4-2 Holt would be good, if we are going to play 4-3-3 Holt shouldnt play.

I like 4-4-2, because as Norwich showed yesterday you can be a real attacking force and if you work hard enough you can be solid at the back as well.

You can't play 4-4-2 against the top sides you won't see the ball you need three men in the middle of the park.

Well I think our best formation to play is 4-4-2 as that is what everyone is brought up playing in this country. If we play at the intensity we do in the Prem and put in the shift, two banks of four in defence will work and then you can counter

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:If we are going to play 4-4-2 Holt would be good, if we are going to play 4-3-3 Holt shouldnt play.

I like 4-4-2, because as Norwich showed yesterday you can be a real attacking force and if you work hard enough you can be solid at the back as well.

You can't play 4-4-2 against the top sides you won't see the ball you need three men in the middle of the park.

Well I think our best formation to play is 4-4-2 as that is what everyone is brought up playing in this country. If we play at the intensity we do in the Prem and put in the shift, two banks of four in defence will work and then you can counter

Because that attitude has always worked so well in the past hasn't it? You can't counter the top sides easily they have holding midfielders that extra man in the middle of park is the key.

The English way clearly hasn't worked or the F.A wouldn't be copying foreign policies to produce better talent.

4 4 2 has worked plenty well in Europe the last few years. I dont think any of the top countries play any better than the top European clubs. Man Utd have been the second best side in Europe and at times the best playing what is a flexible 4 4 2. You just need to have the right players to make it work.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:If we are going to play 4-4-2 Holt would be good, if we are going to play 4-3-3 Holt shouldnt play.

I like 4-4-2, because as Norwich showed yesterday you can be a real attacking force and if you work hard enough you can be solid at the back as well.

You can't play 4-4-2 against the top sides you won't see the ball you need three men in the middle of the park.

Well I think our best formation to play is 4-4-2 as that is what everyone is brought up playing in this country. If we play at the intensity we do in the Prem and put in the shift, two banks of four in defence will work and then you can counter

Because that attitude has always worked so well in the past hasn't it? You can't counter the top sides easily they have holding midfielders that extra man in the middle of park is the key.

The English way clearly hasn't worked or the F.A wouldn't be copying foreign policies to produce better talent.

4-4-2 didn't work in the last World Cup because we had a manger who played players out of position! Gerrard on the left
And not to mention Emile Heskey played as well

Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Grant Holt is scoring goals in what's described as the toughest league in the world. If he's scoring goals while playing in the Norwich side, then with no disrespect to Norwich, surely he'll score more goals in the England side with better service?!

He's up against the best defenders in the Premier League, he's scored against Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton this season, and he deserves to be ahead Crouch on current form.

(To those who bring up Crouch's England goals record or his wonder goal the other week, get real).

For the Euro's it should be Rooney, Sturridge, Welbeck, Holt and Defoe as the strikers.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

They dont play 4 4 2 anymore and they dont win in Europe anymore.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

Mate I'm a Celtic fan Lambo is a legend end of story. You lot are very lucky we never offered him the job instead of Lennon. He was being polite saying he wasn't interested in leaving Norwich for Celtic. He left Borrussia Dortmund to come and play for us when Rangers were in the middle of 9 in a row. If we wanted him we would have got him but the board went for Lennon. They are very similar. You can see the influence Martin O'Neill had on both of them.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

Mate I'm a Celtic fan Lambo is a legend end of story. You lot are very lucky we never offered him the job instead of Lennon. He was being polite saying he wasn't interested in leaving Norwich for Celtic. He left Borrussia Dortmund to come and play for us when Rangers were in the middle of 9 in a row. If we wanted him we would have got him but the board went for Lennon. They are very similar. You can see the influence Martin O'Neill had on both of them.

Well I'm afraid you have missed your chance on him now. When he leaves Norwich which he will at some point I know he will leave for one of the big English or German clubs. I can't see him going to Celtic especially know as all competition is all but gone for a couple of years with the whole Rangers situation

Martin O'Neill is a top manager, just can never shake the feeling he quits when the going gets tough. Would be tempted to say next United manager if it wasn't for that nagging doubt he wouldn't last more than a few years (5 tops).

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

Mate I'm a Celtic fan Lambo is a legend end of story. You lot are very lucky we never offered him the job instead of Lennon. He was being polite saying he wasn't interested in leaving Norwich for Celtic. He left Borrussia Dortmund to come and play for us when Rangers were in the middle of 9 in a row. If we wanted him we would have got him but the board went for Lennon. They are very similar. You can see the influence Martin O'Neill had on both of them.

Well I'm afraid you have missed your chance on him now. When he leaves Norwich which he will at some point I know he will leave for one of the big English or German clubs. I can't see him going to Celtic especially know as all competition is all but gone for a couple of years with the whole Rangers situation

How about replacing Harry Redknapp........?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

Mate I'm a Celtic fan Lambo is a legend end of story. You lot are very lucky we never offered him the job instead of Lennon. He was being polite saying he wasn't interested in leaving Norwich for Celtic. He left Borrussia Dortmund to come and play for us when Rangers were in the middle of 9 in a row. If we wanted him we would have got him but the board went for Lennon. They are very similar. You can see the influence Martin O'Neill had on both of them.

Well I'm afraid you have missed your chance on him now. When he leaves Norwich which he will at some point I know he will leave for one of the big English or German clubs. I can't see him going to Celtic especially know as all competition is all but gone for a couple of years with the whole Rangers situation

How about replacing Harry Redknapp........?

I see Rodgers replacing Redknapp tbh, especially after some weird comments Ashley Williams said a while back about how the team wouldn't begrudge Rodgers a top job!

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Man U don't play 4-4-2 against the better teams they play with an extra man in the middle of the park. No one plays 4-4-2 against top opposition any more because you don't see the ball. Most top sides don't play 4-4-2 at all.

Norwich played 4-4-2 against Spurs yesterday and won

Spurs aren't a top side they are decent in terms of the best Europe has to offer.

Yeah but compared to Norwich they are!!! We are such a better side when we play 4-4-2 rather than the other crappy formations! And mostly all our players are from the British Isles

So Norwich beat Spurs playing 4-4-2 and all of a sudden every top manager in Europe is playing the wrong way.

Well if Sir Paul plays that way, everyone should play that way

Mate I'm a Celtic fan Lambo is a legend end of story. You lot are very lucky we never offered him the job instead of Lennon. He was being polite saying he wasn't interested in leaving Norwich for Celtic. He left Borrussia Dortmund to come and play for us when Rangers were in the middle of 9 in a row. If we wanted him we would have got him but the board went for Lennon. They are very similar. You can see the influence Martin O'Neill had on both of them.

Well I'm afraid you have missed your chance on him now. When he leaves Norwich which he will at some point I know he will leave for one of the big English or German clubs. I can't see him going to Celtic especially know as all competition is all but gone for a couple of years with the whole Rangers situation

The ship has sailed on getting Lambo no doubt. Time will tell if going for Lennon over him was a good decision or not he couldn't have done much better than Lennon has given Lennon had to rebuild a full squad after Mowbray tore Strachans team apart and he was up against a Ranegrs team who had money to spend last season and had won 2 titles on the bounce.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Martin O'Neill is a top manager, just can never shake the feeling he quits when the going gets tough. Would be tempted to say next United manager if it wasn't for that nagging doubt he wouldn't last more than a few years (5 tops).

He left Leicster for Celtic at a time when we had some serious cash to spend and could bring in Sutton, Hartson, Lennon etc. Not to mention the fact we already had the king of kings Henrik Larsson.

He left Celtic because his wife was ill and got out of Aston Villa at the right time. Lerner was selling the best players and not giving him the cash to replace them with similar quality.

Guys please go to this website and like

http://www.holtforengland.com/?fwcc=1&fwcl=1&fwl

Is there a 'dislike' button?

I'll never understand how some people live their life without getting run over every day, the amount of blinkered views there are is truly astounding.
Most people clearly need lessons in objectivity and I'll include most football managers in that list too, judging by some of the comments on here, most people are happy to follow the flock and pick players based on reputation/team played for, rather than their form and verifiable ability.

Looking at the current, below average group of forwards England has to choose from, who has played well and scored goals on a regular basis and against the best opposition?
The only other questions that need to be asked are about temperament and team cohesion ie. will they cause trouble in the sqaud, get into fights or throw a hissyfit if things don't go their way?

So, who are the options?
Rooney is a shoe in, though personally, as he's banned for the first 2 matches, I'd leave him at home and stick him in the Olympic squad.
Crouch has all the required attributes and should be a certainty
Defoe has always flattered to deceive against top opposition and isn't even close to being a regular at club level
Bent is injured
Carroll...I won't even go there
Welbeck looks distinctly average in front of goal, send him to the Olympics
Sturridge is better than Welbeck in front of goal, but is tactically very naive and in all honesty, if we're relying on him or Welbeck to win matches, we're screwed
Campbell (Fraizer) has been injured too much to be in contention
Holt is no world beater, but he does the job asked of him really well and more importantly, he actually scores goals when it matters
Graham (Danny) has 12 goals in 22 appearances this season, but as far as I'm aware, none have been against anything like a top side, sorry Norwich fans for saying that.

I've no doubt that I've missed some players out, but clearly England aren't blessed with much attacking talent ATM, so to not pick a striker on form (Holt) would seem a bit silly, especially as we don't have many midfielders who'll chip in goals, not that it matters much, as looking at that list, we'd be lucky to score more than 3 goals anyway.

ReallyReal wrote:I'll never understand how some people live their life without getting run over every day, the amount of blinkered views there are is truly astounding.
Most people clearly need lessons in objectivity and I'll include most football managers in that list too, judging by some of the comments on here, most people are happy to follow the flock and pick players based on reputation/team played for, rather than their form and verifiable ability.

Looking at the current, below average group of forwards England has to choose from, who has played well and scored goals on a regular basis and against the best opposition?
The only other questions that need to be asked are about temperament and team cohesion ie. will they cause trouble in the sqaud, get into fights or throw a hissyfit if things don't go their way?

So, who are the options?
Rooney is a shoe in, though personally, as he's banned for the first 2 matches, I'd leave him at home and stick him in the Olympic squad.
Crouch has all the required attributes and should be a certainty
Defoe has always flattered to deceive against top opposition and isn't even close to being a regular at club level
Bent is injured
Carroll...I won't even go there
Welbeck looks distinctly average in front of goal, send him to the Olympics
Sturridge is better than Welbeck in front of goal, but is tactically very naive and in all honesty, if we're relying on him or Welbeck to win matches, we're screwed
Campbell (Fraizer) has been injured too much to be in contention
Holt is no world beater, but he does the job asked of him really well and more importantly, he actually scores goals when it matters
Graham (Danny) has 12 goals in 22 appearances this season, but as far as I'm aware, none have been against anything like a top side, sorry Norwich fans for saying that.

I've no doubt that I've missed some players out, but clearly England aren't blessed with much attacking talent ATM, so to not pick a striker on form (Holt) would seem a bit silly, especially as we don't have many midfielders who'll chip in goals, not that it matters much, as looking at that list, we'd be lucky to score more than 3 goals anyway.

Danny Graham plays for Swansea

That is a good objective list ReallyReal, I would take Rooney, Sturridge, Crouch, Holt and Graham if I was picking the squad.

Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Surely strikers are meant to score goals so that's why they are picked

ollyrules wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Surely strikers are meant to score goals so that's why they are picked

Strikers are picked to score goals, anything else they offer to a team is a bonus, but what exactly do Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck offer anyway, none of them are prolific at scoring or assisting others to score and they can't tackle or dribble either, they just (sometimes) play for big clubs?

BTW, I think our wires crossed before ollyrules, I know Graham plays for Swansea, I was saying that the best team he's scored against this season is Norwich, a good side, but hardly the best opposition around

ReallyReal wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Surely strikers are meant to score goals so that's why they are picked

Strikers are picked to score goals, anything else they offer to a team is a bonus, but what exactly do Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck offer anyway, none of them are prolific at scoring or assisting others to score and they can't tackle or dribble either, they just (sometimes) play for big clubs?

BTW, I think our wires crossed before ollyrules, I know Graham plays for Swansea, I was saying that the best team he's scored against this season is Norwich, a good side, but hardly the best opposition around

Oh right I see

I would like to point out Holt has scored against Man Utd, Liverpool, Newcastle, Everton, Chelsea this season

Oh and when have our wires crossed before ReallyREAL

ollyrules wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Surely strikers are meant to score goals so that's why they are picked

No they are not you have to think about the team and it's strengths. Assuming Rooney does go and we get to the latter stages he will be the most important player in the team so any strike partner will have to be one who he can work well with hence Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck. To get the best out of Rooney you need a fast striker who can play off the last defender not a big target man which Holt and Crouch effectively are, looking at purely strike rate is a bit too simplistic.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

ollyrules wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Very little point taking both Crouch and Holt, you need variety and pace at international not big lumbering forwards who don't offer much else but goals to the team.

Rooney, Crouch, Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck would be my 5.

Surely strikers are meant to score goals so that's why they are picked

No they are not you have to think about the team and it's strengths. Assuming Rooney does go and we get to the latter stages he will be the most important player in the team so any strike partner will have to be one who he can work well with hence Defoe, Sturridge and Welbeck. To get the best out of Rooney you need a fast striker who can play off the last defender not a big target man which Holt and Crouch effectively are, looking at purely strike rate is a bit too simplistic.

Ok but Holt works amazingly hard for the team, runs himself into the ground week in, week out. His link up play is also very good, winning flick ons and holding up the ball to bring others into play. If we playing two up front in Rooney + Defoe, Welbeck, Sturridge who will hold the ball up when we are on the back foot? None of them have the strength too! If you play Rooney + Holt or Crouch you can hold the ball up well and release the pressure.

The evidence is that Rooney does work better with a quicker striker, for example Javier Hernandez than he does a big forward. That's probably the biggest reason Berbatov hasn't featured at all this year because Ferguson has recognised Rooney is at his best with a smaller, quicker striker ala Hernandez or Welbeck.

All that matters is Rooney and who will play well with and that would be fast players and with him in the team we don't need someone to work hard for the team because he does it anyway. Crouch could be an option off the bench but you don't take two impact players who are the same, with Welbeck and Sturridge you have versatility too as they can play out wide as well through the middle. If you want an England team set up to be defensive then take Crouch and Holt but if you want to try and hurt top teams you take Rooney and the speedsters.

Ok what happens for the first two games when we don't have Rooney then? Who will do the work? If we are even going to get to the stage where Rooney can play we need to win games. Holt and Crouch will score the goals to get us through the period that Rooney isn't there

I have serious doubts that Holt and Crouch would be the ones scoring the goals to get us through, we would rely on the midfielders to score the goals in which you take one or the other.

The fact of the matter is if that Holt played for Chelsea and Sturridge played for Norwich and they were scoring the goals and playing the way they are, Holt would be on that plane in no time and Sturridge would be struggling to make the squad

Difference being that Sturridge is a young player with huge potential while Holt isn't, no offence to Holt but if he was as good as you make out he wouldn't be at Norwich. There is a reason the better players play for the bigger teams.

Oh poooooooooooooooooooooo I have no retort

HOLT 4 ENGLAND

On a serious note do you think Ruddy should go to the Euros?