England Squad for Summer Tour

If England are to take a 44 man squad to South Africa (three tests and midweek games) this would be the squad which I would take based on ability, current form and fitness.

Back Three: Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Alex Goode, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, David Strettle, Charlie Sharples, Miles Benjamin*.

Centres: Brad Barritt, Manu Tuilagi, Jordan Turner-Hall, Jonathan Joseph*, Billy Twelvetrees, Matt Banahan*.

Half Backs: Toby Flood, Danny Cipriani*, Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care*, K.Dickson.

Back Row: Chris Robshaw, Ben Morgan, Tom Croft, Tom Wood, Tomas Waldrom, James Haskell*, Carl Fearns*.

Locks: Geoff Parling, Mouritz Botha, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes, Matt Garvey*, Tom Palmer.

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Matt Mullan, Dave Wilson.

Hookers: Dylan Hartley, David Paice, Lee Mears, Jamie George*.


(Injured Andy Saull, Rob Webber, Richard Wigglesworth, Joe Simpson, Joe Gray, Chris Brooker, Henry Trinder, Olly Morgan)

(Banned: Callum Clark)


*
Benjamin - Highly underrated Worcester winger, who has left the club to join a bigger side (leicester?) He's a lethal finisher, big tackler, absolutely rapid, and bursting with energy, huge international future.

Joseph - His ability is undoubted. Mike Catt describes him as an upgrade to Guscott, pacey with a deadly outside break, good hands and real acceleration, he is also no slouch in defence, and has the ability to stay on his feet and win turnovers.

Banahan - He may not currently be in the form that made him an international, however he offers something different and on his day can dominate the physical exchanges and provide killer offloads, likely to be a midweek fixture, hopefully he'll find some form for Bath.

Cipriani - Harsh on Burns, however he is still developing and more premiership experience will benefit him. Cipriani is an accomplished goal kicker, quality tactical kicker and thrilling on the front foot. If and this is a big if, he starts to find form for the Rebels towards the end of the Super 15 season, and shows improvements in defence, he must be included in the squad.

Care - If his discipline is sorted out, he is another player who offers the x-factor and must be included. However, he must stop with these stupid off-field incidents and concentrate solely on his rugby.

Haskell - He's been playing well for the Highlanders in NZ, and will be available for selection due to returning to England in the summer. Could be a huge impact player coming off the bench for England in the last half hour.

Fearns - With Clark banned and Dowson failing to hit the heights at international level, Carl Fearns must be given a chance. Similar player to Robshaw, however arguably faster and a better ball carrier. He also has a high work-rate and is finding form for Bath since a long injury lay off.

Garvey - Simply must be included, he's been one of London Irish's best players. His ball carrying, tackling and general work-rate have been immense and every time I watch him, I feel he wouldn't be out of depth playing international rugby. The same goes for Attwood who has been in terrific form lately.

George - He may not start for Saracens, but every time he features he makes a big impact with his ball carrying and work-rate, his line-outs are good and he is definitely one for the future. The tutoring of Burger and Smit will only aid his development.

Thoughts?

Seems like a good choice to me , i would have Wade over Benjamin IMO he has scored some amazing trys for wasps and it an amazing finisher. (But i think he may be injured)

I also agree on Cipriani , lets give him another shot he could be the solution to our attack problems

Haskell has so far been solid and extremely physical for the highlanders and defiantly warrants a place

Lancaster has said he is going to take a 40 man squad.

Gray's injury is only a knock from training, there's no reason for him to be ruled out. I'd have him over a couple of the names you've got down for hooker. On a similar note, Trinder is starting for Gloucester this weekend and Wigglesworth is on the bench for Sarries, so shouldn't be ruled out because of injury.

Haskell won't be returning to England until after July when the Super Rugby season ends. If Highlanders make the finals he'll be out there till mid August. Super Rugby breaks for the summer tours (first 3 weekends in June), so Highlanders might let him play for England, but he wouldn't be able to train with the squad which will meet up 3-4 weeks beforehand, so I doubt Lancaster will consider him. His place should go to Armitage, who is in cracking form for Toulon and would fill our gaping out-and-out scavenging 7 hole.

Cipriani has done very little in the last couple of years to warrant selection. Burns has most certainly played better rugby this year. Burns attacking game is as good as Cipriani's was and definitely better than it currently is. Quite aside from that, similar to Haskell, Cipriani wouldn't be able to train with the squad when they meet up weeks before the tour.

I wouldn't take Banahan, he's in no sort of form and I'd rather see a more promising prospect exposed to the environment. As it is, 4 players need to be culled from your list and he is surplus to requirements.

My other 3 culls would be one of the 4 SHs, one of the 4 hookers, and then one of either the back three or a lock.

I'd take:

Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Botha, Parling, Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Dickson, Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi, Strettle, Ashton, Foden, Mears, Stevens, Lawes, Wood, Youngs, Flood, Sharples as the first choice 22. That leaves me with 18 spots, so I'll take another full 15 and 3 extras.

Marler, George, Doran-Jones, Attwood, Palmer, Dowson, Fearns, Waldrom, Simpson, Burns, Twelvetrees, Trinder, May, Joseph, Brown.

For the 3 extras, I'll want a front-row, a forward and a back. I want to take Mullan, but I'm not sure about him and Marler on the same pitch at the same time (both play loose), so maybe Wilson gets the nod (and I just shuddered as I said that. Mullan is twice the player).

Launcheberry would be my extra forward, I think he's a lock that covers back row, isn't he? Either way, he got a call-up to cover for the Six Nations squad, and is one with an exciting future.

Turner-Hall would be my extra back. Solid in the games he came on in in the Six Nations, and with Twelvetrees covering most of the back line we only really need someone to cover 36.

I really struggled for a midweek 7. Clark would have been my choice (at 6; Dowson shifting to 7), but he is rightfully ruled out for a long time. I'm not sure if Fearns is a long-time option at 7, but it would be good to expose him to the England squad, while none of our younger 7s are really ready in my opinion.

I flip-flopped between Hodgson and Burns for a long while, but ultimately went for Burns. Harsh on Hodgson, but if it were my decision (and it isn't), then that's the one I'd make.

Full 40-man squad:

Hookers: Hartley, Mears, George.

Props: Corbisiero, Cole, Stevens, Marler, Doran-Jones, Wilson

Locks: Botha, Parling, Lawes, Attwood, Palmer, Launcheberry

Back row: Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Wood, Dowson, Fearns, Waldrom

Scrum-halves: Dickson, Youngs, Simpson

Fly-halves: Farrell, Flood, Burns

Centres: Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Turner-Hall

Wings: Ashton, Strettle, May, Joseph

Full-back: Foden, Brown

Little note, I didn't consider Care, because of his disciplinary issues. Not sure if the Saxons have any games, but I would potentially take him on any Saxons tour to let him know he wasn't completely out the fold, but he has to stop getting himself into trouble.

My inclination would be to leave out a few players that although OK, I feel there are better prospects than.


Hartley, Gray, George

Corbisero, Cole, Mullan, Marler, PDJ, Wilson

Parling, Lawes, Garvey, Attwood, Robson, Launchbury/Kitchener

Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Morgan, Fearns, Armitage, Waldrom/Guest

Youngs, Dickson, Care

Flood, Farrell, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Joseph, Trinder/JTH

Foden, Ashton, Sharples, May, Brown, Benjamin, Strettle/Goode

Some good suggestions Robshaw4, but as some others have mentioned there is a) only 40 players touring and b) Those in the Super XV won't in all probability be picked.

I really don't think you could consider taking Cipriani (even if he was available). I like the justifications you've put to your starred players, but adding "if he sorts his tackling out and finds some form" for Cipriani is like saying that Charlie Hodgson could be the best goal kicker in the world if he sorted his consistency out. All true, but unlikely to happen.

My feeling is that Cips has an attitude problem when it comes to tackling (also incidently when it comes to some of his other team mates!). He shows no willing to get stuck in, which for a professional rugby player aint a good start.

Otherwise than that I have to say I agree with the majority of your picks, Garvey, Ferns and George are excellent choices and must tour. Banners and Benjamin I would leave at home to get a full pre-season with their clubs, and i'd also leave out Paice and Karl Dickson to bring the numbers back in line.

What would be your team to face the Barbarians though? Bearing in mind a number of players won't be available from that list?

James Fitzpatrick our 12 is 100 times better than Turner Hall...

Now Lancaster is in charge i dont think the likes of Haskell or Cipriani with get any where near the England squad just yet.

Lancster said that just because you have a reputation, does not garuntee that you will slip straight back into the England side. All players have to earn the right to be in the England team.

But i thought that Lancaster said the other night that he would be taking the England squad that played in the 6ns. Plus the Saxons squad as well.

I think that England will realy improve under Stuart Lancaster faster than they have under any other coach since 2003 rwc. What with imposing disipline on players, Danny Care, Dillon Armatage, etc.

Player/s now know they cannot afford to be complacent. If they do anything that puts the England squad in the limelight for the wrong reasons they will be dropped.

GeordieFalcon wrote:James Fitzpatrick our 12 is 100 times better than Turner Hall...

Geordie

You keep championing your man. Apart from him being a monster what else recommends him for the position?

Replies within the quote marks for convenience in bold

robshaw4england wrote:If England are to take a 44 man squad to South Africa (three tests and midweek games) this would be the squad which I would take based on ability, current form and fitness.

Back Three: Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Alex Goode, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, David Strettle, Charlie Sharples, Miles Benjamin*. All fair enough, if Wade is fit I'd take him too. Not sure we need 3 out and out 15s, but Goode covers 10 as well so he might be handy.

Centres: Brad Barritt, Manu Tuilagi, Jordan Turner-Hall, Jonathan Joseph*, Billy Twelvetrees, Matt Banahan*. Oh dear lord, no. No Banahan, or if need be, only as a winger! No Banahan at centre. NO BANAHAN AT CENTRE! Sorry, may have gotten carried away there. The others are all good calls but Trinder has to go, IMO, maybe Lowe too. And Banahan should be banned from flights out of the UK just in case someone calls him up in a moment of insanity.

Half Backs: Toby Flood, Danny Cipriani*, Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care*, K.Dickson. Cipriani has a lot of work to do before I'd consider inviting him along. I'd take Burns or Heathcote or Clegg or Ford over him. Or Hodgson. He has the talent but no way is he ready to come along back into the fold just yet- he still can't/doesn't tackle, he is hit and miss in Australia, and he still comes across as the kind of douche that Lancaster just won't pick. The others, all OK, Care will need to prove he has started to get his act together by then though.

Back Row: Chris Robshaw, Ben Morgan, Tom Croft, Tom Wood, Tomas Waldrom, James Haskell*, Carl Fearns*. Haskell won't be picked because he is in S15. He appears to be playing well and he is a good player but not enough to over come the distance difficulties and selection policies. I'd have Armitage first, maybe bring Wallace along. I'd take Crane instead of Waldrom if he's back too.

Locks: Geoff Parling, Mouritz Botha, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes, Matt Garvey*, Tom Palmer. Looks fine to me

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Matt Mullan, Dave Wilson. PDJ over Stevens please

Hookers: Dylan Hartley, David Paice, Lee Mears, Jamie George*. Gray should be back, I think, so I'd take him not Paice.


(Injured Andy Saull, Rob Webber, Richard Wigglesworth, Joe Simpson, Joe Gray, Chris Brooker, Henry Trinder, Olly Morgan)

(Banned: Callum Clark) Wrigglesworth isn't injured any more, the others will hopefully be back before the tour.


*
Benjamin - Highly underrated Worcester winger, who has left the club to join a bigger side (leicester?) He's a lethal finisher, big tackler, absolutely rapid, and bursting with energy, huge international future.

Joseph - His ability is undoubted. Mike Catt describes him as an upgrade to Guscott, pacey with a deadly outside break, good hands and real acceleration, he is also no slouch in defence, and has the ability to stay on his feet and win turnovers.

Banahan - He may not currently be in the form that made him an international, however he offers something different and on his day can dominate the physical exchanges and provide killer offloads, likely to be a midweek fixture, hopefully he'll find some form for Bath. - just... no. I'd rather have Hape.

Cipriani - Harsh on Burns, however he is still developing and more premiership experience will benefit him. Cipriani is an accomplished goal kicker, quality tactical kicker and thrilling on the front foot. If and this is a big if, he starts to find form for the Rebels towards the end of the Super 15 season, and shows improvements in defence, he must be included in the squad. He won't, and even if he does, no way Lancaster picks the man who has previously been anathema to team spirit and every quality SL holds dear.

Care - If his discipline is sorted out, he is another player who offers the x-factor and must be included. However, he must stop with these stupid off-field incidents and concentrate solely on his rugby.

Haskell - He's been playing well for the Highlanders in NZ, and will be available for selection due to returning to England in the summer. Could be a huge impact player coming off the bench for England in the last half hour.

Fearns - With Clark banned and Dowson failing to hit the heights at international level, Carl Fearns must be given a chance. Similar player to Robshaw, however arguably faster and a better ball carrier. He also has a high work-rate and is finding form for Bath since a long injury lay off.

Garvey - Simply must be included, he's been one of London Irish's best players. His ball carrying, tackling and general work-rate have been immense and every time I watch him, I feel he wouldn't be out of depth playing international rugby. The same goes for Attwood who has been in terrific form lately.

George - He may not start for Saracens, but every time he features he makes a big impact with his ball carrying and work-rate, his line-outs are good and he is definitely one for the future. The tutoring of Burger and Smit will only aid his development.

Thoughts?

1.What is Johnny May's best position?

2.Where would he be best employed by England?

3. Are the answers to 1 and 2 the same?

1) Wing
2) Wing
3) Yes

I just don't understand this sudden urge to include Cipriani again. He's missed so many Rebels games through injury and indiscipline and when he did play was shown up hugely in defence. Why does that warrant a call up? He didn't set the world alight in an England shirt before and rightly got dropped and his game hasn't improved since then. If I was Ford, Heathcote, Burns, Farrell and Cipriani got on the summer tour ahead of me, I would be seriously p***ed off!

Props - Mullan, Marler, PDJ, Wilson, Harden, Golding
Hookers - Hartley (because Webber is injured), Gray (he should be back, right?), Mears, Youngs/George
Locks - Botha, Parling, Attwood, Garvey, Lawes, Launchbury
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Dowson, Seymour, Waldrom, Wallace, Kvesic
9s - Care, Dickson, Simpson, Wigglesworth
10s - Flood, Farrell, Burns
centres - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Lowe, Joseph
wings - Strettle, Short, Sharples, May
fbs - Goode, Brown, Miller

Good squad that also rests the likes of Corbs, Cole, Croft, Youngs, Manu, Ashton, Foden and Stevens that all had busy RWCs and 6Ns. I would have rested Hartley as well but we are short of hookers.

Hugely surprised by Golding, has barely played and shown no form for 18 months or so. I'd prefer to take someone like Catt, who has at least played some Saxons already and gets regular gametime.

Don't think that they would take 8 back rowers and sincerely hope that Dowson isn't one of them. Don't see the point in taking him, should give his slot to Wallace/Seymour/Kvesic

Would also be very surprised if they took 4 SHs and 3 specialist FBs.

Not sure I would want to be resting Cole and Corbs. Both get rotated well for their clubs, and I would want them playing and getting vital experience against a tough south African front 5.

My 40 man touring squad would be...

Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Whitehead, George,
Cole, Doran-Jones, Thomas
Garvey, Botha, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury
Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Morgan, Gibson,

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder
Foden, Brown, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, May, Wade

Like the look of that 40 Ozzy, especially the backs. Although, I would try and find a place for Lowe- think he deserves a shot. Garvey needs a shot in the EPS, because he could really fill that enforcer role.

Haven't heard of that Whitehead lad? But I might just be being naive...

Exeter chiefs hooker. Very mobile with good hands. Also scrummages pretty well as he's not the biggest. In great form at present and probably worth a look on the hard grounds.

Hooker a bit of an issue for England at present.

If Lowe plays anywhere near as well in the end-season as he did on Saturday, he should really tour. But then, he is competing with Tuilagi, Trinder and Joseph for the place at the very least. Been awhile since we had any strength in depth at 13. Which is why picking Banahan there would be a universe-shatteringly awful decision

Would also be very surprised if they took 4 SHs and 3 specialist FBs.

Generate experience in Goode and Miller whilst Brown plays for the first team. Goode and Miller can both cover 10 as well. 4 specialist 9s so that would be 2 for the test games and 2 for the mid week games otherwise you're one injury away from having to call out a replacement.

Not sure I would want to be resting Cole and Corbs. Both get rotated well for their clubs, and I would want them playing and getting vital experience against a tough south African front 5.

We're to relient on the pair of them, especially Cole for his scrummaging. It's time we got some of the other good English props some experience so that there is actual competition rather than Corbs and Cole walking into the team for every game.

Don't think that they would take 8 back rowers and sincerely hope that Dowson isn't one of them. Don't see the point in taking him, should give his slot to Wallace/Seymour/Kvesic

Position most likely to see an injury against the Saffas (due to the physicality required in the loose). Dowson is tough, covers all three back row positions and has experience. I've included Wallace, Seymour and Kvesic as well, for use in the mid week games. I was tempted to include Gibson as well but he narrowly missed out to Kvesic.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Not sure I would want to be resting Cole and Corbs. Both get rotated well for their clubs, and I would want them playing and getting vital experience against a tough south African front 5.

We're to relient on the pair of them, especially Cole for his scrummaging. It's time we got some of the other good English props some experience so that there is actual competition rather than Corbs and Cole walking into the team for every game.

Cole is cemented in, Corbs less so I would say. He has only really made the shirt his own in this 6 Nations. I would want them both starting the tests, with one of Marler or PDJ on the bench, then Marler and PDJ starting the midweek games, with Mullan and Thomas coming off the bench.

I know that we need competition for jerseys, but we also need our front row (front 5) to be a well drilled unit, which our first choice players will only get from playing together.

Also, can we agree that if Marler puts in a good show against Cole and Castro in the scrums next month he should get a start on tour? His scrummaging is so underrated now and having him, Mullan and Corbs experienced in wearing the shirt can only be a good thing

As I said above, I probably wouldn't start him in the tests, but he'd have a bench spot in one of them. He would be starting the midweek games for me though.

Playing a mid week test and then benching will be hard work. Add to that Marler is not really great bench material in that he can only play one side of the scrum and neither him nor Corbs are particularly destructive scrummagers (both are good but not fearsome).

I don't see the point in dragging the RWC and 6N players out there after long seasons so that they can play some more hard games that will once again deprive them of a proper pre season. Then next year is the Lions by which time they might well be really knackered before no proper pre season and another season of tough rugby. The summer after that is the final summer tests before the next RWC and the core of big names will either be broken or burnt out by then.

Not to mention if anything happen in the 6N next year and we lose out tighthead (as Ireland did against us) then we are likely to take a kicking in the scrum as we have NO tightheads with international experience outside of Cole and Stevens. Wilson has a little but mainly as a bench option. Time to change that and make things competitive. Same as at 13 and 15.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Playing a mid week test and then benching will be hard work. Add to that Marler is not really great bench material in that he can only play one side of the scrum and neither him nor Corbs are particularly destructive scrummagers (both are good but not fearsome).

I don't see the point in dragging the RWC and 6N players out there after long seasons so that they can play some more hard games that will once again deprive them of a proper pre season. Then next year is the Lions by which time they might well be really knackered before no proper pre season and another season of tough rugby. The summer after that is the final summer tests before the next RWC and the core of big names will either be broken or burnt out by then.

Not to mention if anything happen in the 6N next year and we lose out tighthead (as Ireland did against us) then we are likely to take a kicking in the scrum as we have NO tightheads with international experience outside of Cole and Stevens. Wilson has a little but mainly as a bench option. Time to change that and make things competitive. Same as at 13 and 15.

That's pretty sound logic. I'd still bring our first choice props with us though just in case

Ozzy3213 wrote:My 40 man touring squad would be...

Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Whitehead, George,
Cole, Doran-Jones, Thomas
Garvey, Botha, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury
Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Morgan, Gibson,

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder
Foden, Brown, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, May, Wade

We have a winner. Any idea when Wade is fit again?

Edit - On reflection, maybe Short over Strettle?

I can see your logic Sam, but don't agree mate. I think it is suicide going to South Africa without your first choice props.

I want them starting at least 2 of the 3 tests, preferably all three with the other options being looked at midweek and off the bench. Then come the AI's, I would give the designated back up (who in my opinion would be PDJ at tighthead, and either Marler or Mullan at loosehead) starts against Fiji and Australia, neither of whom are fearsome scrummaging units.

Cole and Corbisiero can be given enforced rests by virtue of the EPS agreement, so burn out is not something that I think will be an issue for either of them, in particular as I cannot remember the last club game where either of them completed 80 minutes.

Ozzy3213 wrote:My 40 man touring squad would be...

Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Whitehead, George,
Cole, Doran-Jones, Thomas
Garvey, Botha, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury
Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Morgan, Gibson,

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder
Foden, Brown, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, May, Wade

No Budgie? It's a disgrace

EnglishReign wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:My 40 man touring squad would be...

Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Whitehead, George,
Cole, Doran-Jones, Thomas
Garvey, Botha, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury
Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Morgan, Gibson,

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder
Foden, Brown, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, May, Wade

We have a winner. Any idea when Wade is fit again?

Edit - On reflection, maybe Short over Strettle?

I'm 50/50 on Short to be honest, but in any case, Strettle is the man in possession of the shirt and has done nothing to warrant getting dropped.

Cole and Corbisiero can be given enforced rests by virtue of the EPS agreement, so burn out is not something that I think will be an issue for either of them, in particular as I cannot remember the last club game where either of them completed 80 minutes

The EPS enforced rest periods also mean they miss around half of pre season training. I would rather they got that under their belts, I don't think it's suicide to go to SA minus the first choice props. Mullan is a better scrummager than Corbs and PDJ is pretty close to being as good as Cole. If you take the first choice players out there then they have to play as they have the shirts. The mid week games are going to be tough to break into the test team from and so all that will happen is the Cole and Corbs will play 3 tests and the others will gain experience against scratch sides or 20 mins off the bench. No point.

I want to see what PDJ can do up against a Bok scrum from the off ditto Mullan and Marler. Is Wilson going to always be an also ran or is there more to him? Questions we will only answer if they have substantial playing time against a tier 1 nation. The Boks scrum is good but they lack a destructive tighthead, Jannie du Plessis is not that good. It's the loose and the lineout where we will be examined physically. Mullan gets around the field, Marler is almost an additional backrower and PDJ is great at the tight stuff like the rolling mauls (see Saints vs Bath at the weekend).

I can't see how the EPS rest periods mean they miss half of pre season training Sam. As far as I am aware the rests relate to games during the season.

formerly known as Sam wrote: PDJ is great at the tight stuff like the rolling mauls (see Saints vs Bath at the weekend).

True, his work to pull the maul over the try line was exceptional. Very impressive. Wasn't too sure what all the hype was about a few months ago, but since his move to Saints I'm starting to see a little more of him and am starting to think he's really hammering down the tour for a place in the EPS again

I can't see how the EPS rest periods mean they miss half of pre season training Sam. As far as I am aware the rests relate to games during the season

Minimum rest period following the end of the season. Players must have so many weeks off before they start training for the new season. I think it's a bigger rule than the EPS actually. For example Ellis got sent on two weeks of kids courses as he came back from holiday but wasn't allowed to do any training as he had been away with the Lions and so was still in his 'rest' period.

True, his work to pull the maul over the try line was exceptional. Very impressive. Wasn't too sure what all the hype was about a few months ago, but since his move to Saints I'm starting to see a little more of him and am starting to think he's really hammering down the tour for a place in the EPS again

I actually think he needs some more international experience to flourish. Getting Wilson and Harden in and around the team will do them good as well and it would be nice if Cole's name wasn't inked in on every team sheet. Competition at international level will be good for him, it certainly is at club level.

I agree Sam. PDJ seems to be really vocal as well, something that Cole or Corbs aren't. He could be a good front-row leader in a few seasons time.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:My 40 man touring squad would be...

Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Whitehead, George,
Cole, Doran-Jones, Thomas
Garvey, Botha, Lawes, Parling, Launchbury
Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Morgan, Gibson,

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder
Foden, Brown, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, May, Wade

We have a winner. Any idea when Wade is fit again?

Edit - On reflection, maybe Short over Strettle?

I'm 50/50 on Short to be honest, but in any case, Strettle is the man in possession of the shirt and has done nothing to warrant getting dropped.

If Wade isn't fit i'd be tempted by Yarde or Chisholm (he covers wing and fb well and is a more physical player but still very quick).

Still not sure on Twelvetrees, he has the potential but does he have the temprament currently? In a mid week match I could see a backline of Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph/Trinder being a thing of beauty or spectacuarly failing. We really need a more solid player in there somewhere.

PDJ looked very good when he played for England last year and Rowntree really rated him highly. I did find it odd that he was dropped the moment Stevens came back in to the mix.

Still not sure on Twelvetrees, he has the potential but does he have the temprament currently? In a mid week match I could see a backline of Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph/Trinder being a thing of beauty or spectacuarly failing. We really need a more solid player in there somewhere

He's in cracking form at the minute and conjured a try out of nothing against LI with a little show, step and go before passing to Manu for an easy finish. He's not going to nudge Barritt out the way but he is big, strong and quick with great passing skill as well a monstrous boot. All of which will be handy to the mid week team in SA. He's played alongside Trinder a few times for the Saxons so that won't be a new combo if it's tried but a Twelvetrees/Lowe combo could work very nicely.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Still not sure on Twelvetrees, he has the potential but does he have the temprament currently? In a mid week match I could see a backline of Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph/Trinder being a thing of beauty or spectacuarly failing. We really need a more solid player in there somewhere

He's in cracking form at the minute and conjured a try out of nothing against LI with a little show, step and go before passing to Manu for an easy finish. He's not going to nudge Barritt out the way but he is big, strong and quick with great passing skill as well a monstrous boot. All of which will be handy to the mid week team in SA. He's played alongside Trinder a few times for the Saxons so that won't be a new combo if it's tried but a Twelvetrees/Lowe combo could work very nicely.

That's what I wanted to hear. As I said if he's on form and the guys around him are on his wave length then he can create magic. Tbh you've converted me and I think he should go.

Lowe would be an interesting partner, another big tackling pacy centre next to him who can create a lot.

Alex Corbisiero
Ben Foden
Ben Morgan
Ben Youngs
Brad Barritt
Calum Clark
Charlie Hodgson
Charlie Sharples
Chris Ashton
Chris Robshaw
Courtney Lawes
Dan Cole
David Strettle
David Wilson
Dylan Hartley
Geoff Parling
Joe Marler
Joe Simpson
Jordan Turner-Hall
Lee Dickson
Lee Mears
Louis Deacon
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Matt Stevens
Mike Brown
Mouritz Botha
Owen Farrell
Phil Dowson
Rob Webber
Toby Flood
Tom Croft
Tom Palmer
Tom Wood


Alex Goode
Andy Saull
Anthony Allen
Billy Twelvetrees
Chris Brooker
David Attwood
David Paice
Ed Slater
Freddie Burns
George Robson
Henry Thomas
Henry Trinder
James Gaskell
Joe Gray
Joe Launchbury
Jonny May
Karl Dickson
Kearnan Myall
Luke Narraway
Matt Banahan
Matt Garvey
Matt Hopper
Matthew Mullan
Micky Young
Nick Abendanon
Nick Wood
Paul Doran-Jones
Rupert Harden
Ryan Lamb
Thomas Waldrom
Ugo Monye.

There's the full EPS and Saxons squads. Names in Red are players who won't be available due to injuries or suspension.

Have to say I hope Lancaster can make changes as a lot has changed since Jan.

Also combined that's 63 players so the Saxons must be doing something as well this summer.

Jonny May, the real future of English rugby.

Paul Doran-Jones is rubbish - picking him for England would be like picking Tim Payne all over again. F**K THAT!

Paul Doran-Jones is rubbish - picking him for England would be like picking Tim Payne all over again. F**K THAT!

No, no it would not. PDJ can a) actually scrummager b) is not YC happy penalty machine and c) is of use in the loose.

ER good to see some of young Sam Harrison on there (though my work PC has no sound so I had to turn it off), a very talented, young scrum half who has gone from academy graduate 4th choice to 2nd choice and pushing Youngs for the 9 shirt this season at Tigers.

In response to the OP, I would certainly not take Strettle, Care, Cipriani or even Matt Stevens.

On Lancasters watch, none of these will be making the trip to SA.

agree about stevens and cips cabbage. why wouldn't you take care or strettle?

Perhaps we should try to make a gentleman's agreement with the Saffas for each side to pick youngsters?

That wont hurt attendances or viewing figures certainly not from our side anyway as our youngsters all seem to be superior to the more experienced guys they've replaced (generalising here).

robshaw4england wrote: ... Half Backs: Danny Cipriani* ...

(Injured ... Richard Wigglesworth ...)

*Never trust a man with that many I's in his name.

Wigglesworth is back full time i believe? He was out on the field against Quins at the weekend, and scored a try which must have been a nice welcome back present.

If George Lowe keeps that form, after his Aviva man of the match on Saturday, for the rest of the season then i'd stick him in a plane seat.

Agreed...Lowe is putting a serious hand up for a spot...and only 22...

13 is becoming a real position of strength for England. Any of Tuilagi, Trinder, Lowe or Joseph could play international rugby in my view.

The real key is to find a complimentary 12. Barritt is a good solid option for now, and JT-H an able (albeit quite similar) deputy, but there isn't really a playmaker option putting up his hand at 12, at least not that I've seen.

Alex Goode could become an option at 12 in that I think he has the skills, Twelvetrees perhaps, although it'll be interesting to see how his move pans out for him next year, Barkley - not close to good enough this season, Flood - far better at 10, Farrell - maybe, but doesn't really tick the playmaker box, Hodgson - defence not good enough, Cipriani - see Hogdson, Banahan - can't pass and too slow off the mark......

Can't think of a candidate really screaming to replace Barritt, certainly not for the SA tour.