England Squad for Summer Tour

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If England are to take a 44 man squad to South Africa (three tests and midweek games) this would be the squad which I would take based on ability, current form and fitness.

Back Three: Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Alex Goode, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, David Strettle, Charlie Sharples, Miles Benjamin*.

Centres: Brad Barritt, Manu Tuilagi, Jordan Turner-Hall, Jonathan Joseph*, Billy Twelvetrees, Matt Banahan*.

Half Backs: Toby Flood, Danny Cipriani*, Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care*, K.Dickson.

Back Row: Chris Robshaw, Ben Morgan, Tom Croft, Tom Wood, Tomas Waldrom, James Haskell*, Carl Fearns*.

Locks: Geoff Parling, Mouritz Botha, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes, Matt Garvey*, Tom Palmer.

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Matt Mullan, Dave Wilson.

Hookers: Dylan Hartley, David Paice, Lee Mears, Jamie George*.


(Injured Andy Saull, Rob Webber, Richard Wigglesworth, Joe Simpson, Joe Gray, Chris Brooker, Henry Trinder, Olly Morgan)

(Banned: Callum Clark)


*
Benjamin - Highly underrated Worcester winger, who has left the club to join a bigger side (leicester?) He's a lethal finisher, big tackler, absolutely rapid, and bursting with energy, huge international future.

Joseph - His ability is undoubted. Mike Catt describes him as an upgrade to Guscott, pacey with a deadly outside break, good hands and real acceleration, he is also no slouch in defence, and has the ability to stay on his feet and win turnovers.

Banahan - He may not currently be in the form that made him an international, however he offers something different and on his day can dominate the physical exchanges and provide killer offloads, likely to be a midweek fixture, hopefully he'll find some form for Bath.

Cipriani - Harsh on Burns, however he is still developing and more premiership experience will benefit him. Cipriani is an accomplished goal kicker, quality tactical kicker and thrilling on the front foot. If and this is a big if, he starts to find form for the Rebels towards the end of the Super 15 season, and shows improvements in defence, he must be included in the squad.

Care - If his discipline is sorted out, he is another player who offers the x-factor and must be included. However, he must stop with these stupid off-field incidents and concentrate solely on his rugby.

Haskell - He's been playing well for the Highlanders in NZ, and will be available for selection due to returning to England in the summer. Could be a huge impact player coming off the bench for England in the last half hour.

Fearns - With Clark banned and Dowson failing to hit the heights at international level, Carl Fearns must be given a chance. Similar player to Robshaw, however arguably faster and a better ball carrier. He also has a high work-rate and is finding form for Bath since a long injury lay off.

Garvey - Simply must be included, he's been one of London Irish's best players. His ball carrying, tackling and general work-rate have been immense and every time I watch him, I feel he wouldn't be out of depth playing international rugby. The same goes for Attwood who has been in terrific form lately.

George - He may not start for Saracens, but every time he features he makes a big impact with his ball carrying and work-rate, his line-outs are good and he is definitely one for the future. The tutoring of Burger and Smit will only aid his development.

Thoughts?

alcoombe wrote:Haskell won't be returning to England until after July when the Super Rugby season ends. If Highlanders make the finals he'll be out there till mid August. Super Rugby breaks for the summer tours (first 3 weekends in June), so Highlanders might let him play for England, but he wouldn't be able to train with the squad which will meet up 3-4 weeks beforehand, so I doubt Lancaster will consider him. His place should go to Armitage, who is in cracking form for Toulon and would fill our gaping out-and-out scavenging 7 hole.

Super XV only starts its break 1 week after the premiership final, so he wouldn't miss too much, though I do doubt he'll be selected. Armitage wont go. He signed for Toulon after the rule about playing abroad was brought in, so whatever you think of that rule he did choose to rule himself out.

alcoombe wrote:Cipriani has done very little in the last couple of years to warrant selection. Burns has most certainly played better rugby this year. Burns attacking game is as good as Cipriani's was and definitely better than it currently is.

Is it really as good as Cipriani's was? Cipriani in 07/08 was completely sensational.

It is ExiledScot, but you're also right about 12! We need a few more youngsters to put their hands up. 12trees could be good, and I hope he flourishes at Gloucester. One thing that's always confused me though, is that JTH strikes me more as a 13 than a 12?

We do have a few options at 12 but more then most positions I think it depends on the game plan. Barritt is so key for the defencive set up that few others could fill his boots in a like for like swap.

12's:
Barritt
JTH
Farrell
Twelvetrees
Fitzpatrick
Casson
Banahan
Allan

Of those you have the boshers- Barritt, JTH, Banahan, Fitz.
Then you have your second flyhalves -Farrell, Twelvetrees.
And then the inbetweeners- Casson and Allan.

I don't think JTH has the pace or step for 13, he's definitely a 12.

13 is becoming a real position of strength for England. Any of Tuilagi, Trinder, Lowe or Joseph could play international rugby in my view.

Well we know Manu can but the other three are virtually untested. That has got to be a concern for Lancaster, he needs to start cultivating those options starting with this summer tour.

The real key is to find a complimentary 12.

Barritt is doing well now, JTH was underwhelming in the 6N but Twelvetrees is in some form and so could be a good shout for Barritt's back up this summer. Long term Bowden is eying an England call up, Forsyth is coming through well at Tigers, Fitzpatrick developing nicely at Falcons and Mills is starting to show some serious class at Gloucester. That's not including the current under 20 option (who's name I've suddenly forgotten but I think is Scott), Allen at Tigers, Burrell who has just signed for Saints, Casson at Quins and Heathcote who could be playing there with Donald at 10 next season for Bath.

There are options but England need to decide on what they specifically want from their 12 as in recent years they have been indecisive on that.

yappysnap wrote:I don't think JTH has the pace or step for 13, he's definitely a 12.

It may just be my way of thinking, but I've been brought up believing a 12 should have the mind of a fly-half, but of larger frame and better defence. Just thought that they should have a good kicking game and be able to read the game well. I.e, 12 is a fly-half in a centre's body. To me, JTH doesn't seem to have those characteristics...

I may be wrong in my assumptions, and am happy to be corrected!

I think there are really 3 types of 12 that are usually played Bluestone.

The Nonu- A hard running and big tackling player to take the ball directly in to contact ( but also step and offload).

The Mccalister- As you said a fly half in a centres body.

The Sonny Bill- A bit of both body wise.

Ah thanks Yappy, I guess JTH is more of the Nonu type 12?

Sam i'd question how you thought JTH was underwhelming?

He only got a few minutes at the end of each match usually when we were defending hard. He came on and made his tackles but didn't get a chance to do anything else. What were your expectations for him in those few minutes each match?

Yea I think he is, i'm not sure how effective he is at it though at International level. I'd go with your preference for the Mccalister type 12 so maybe 12t's in the future.

Here's a question, i ask it in all seriousness and with a heavy heart....

If we applied the following criteria as a mandatory requirement to selecting our England sides:

The ability to draw and pass.....

Would we be able to field a decent 22 ?

Tri

On the training ground definately, during a high intensity international match? I don't think an NH sides could mate!

Sam i'd question how you thought JTH was underwhelming?

He only got a few minutes at the end of each match usually when we were defending hard. He came on and made his tackles but didn't get a chance to do anything else. What were your expectations for him in those few minutes each match?

His performances off the bench were instantly forgetable. For a player than made his name based on big hits and explosive breaks he offered neither to an England backline desperate for someone to make a difference. I know Manu got the starts but he went looking for the hits and ball trying to make things happen. JTH looked like he wanted to keep his head down and get through the game without making a mistake. I expected more.

As an example Brown was only given a few minutes off the bench here and there but he came into the line looking for the ball and ran kicks back trying to make things happen. Ok, he wasn't that successfull but it showed more thinking and willing.

Either Barritt finally becomes the 10 playing 12 that he claims to be with his playing experience at 10...OR....

We should play 12trees as soon as deemed ready.

End of.

At 12 Barritt is the man in possession, although it still remains to be seen whether the outside backs will be able to fullfill their potential with him in the side. Certainly deserves his opportunity though.

Then it's apparently JTH. JTH is a phsical type centre, but I just don't think he's physical enough for international rugby. I think in a couple of years time Tuilagi will be doing a far better job in this role than JTH has managed. He's a solid club players but no more for me.

The Twelvetrees who has the complete skillset, and we'll have to see how he does at Gloucester because with Trinder or May outside him, and Burns inside he's going to have to limit the fancy stuff and make sure he does the basics well.

Casson isn't playing enough first team rugby, Allen is simply too small without the exceptional skills to make up for it, Fitzpatrick is worth keeping an eye on but needs to be playing AP rugby to be considered, and Banahan's career appears to have stalled.

Below that, and ruling out players like May and Addison (who have both played really well at IC) we have Ryan Mills, who is very highly rated, and Sam Hill, who is also well regarded. Further down the age-groups there are a couple of Kiwi's who moved here in their mid to early teens.

So there are options, but it's nothing like as deep as 10, 13 and 15 are becoming.

I played 12 before i hung up my boots. I will have a crack.

Triangulation wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:James Fitzpatrick our 12 is 100 times better than Turner Hall...

Geordie

You keep championing your man. Apart from him being a monster what else recommends him for the position?

I rate him because generally he is consistant. He is a very powerful guy...and tackles hard...and never fails to get over the gain line.

But he also has brains. Many instances this season...he could have gone for the beast of a tackle...but resisted and instead went in and took the ball off the attacker...and started attacks..which a better team would have scored from. He has decent pace...having turned out on the wing for us in some occasions...

He may never set the international world alight...but i think he would excell in the bruising games in SA...even in the midweek games to get a look at him..

p.s 12 is the most important position in the backline.

Long term Sam Hill could well be the man at 12 for England, but he is a couple of years away from being near to the side just yet. Has a great skill set though, and I believe has been getting valuable experience of first team rugby with the Cornish Pirates this season.

Ultimately we need to see what Barritt can offer with Flood at 10 and a good attacking coach to put some plans down.

It could be that he will surprise everybody. IF however he proves he doesnt have the creativity required...then it maybe that once the team is more settled someone of a little more class be brought in...and Twelvetrees certainly has that class...and will be playing permanently next season...

Its a nice position to be in though...

Hill certainly carries, tackles and passes very well, particularly for an 18 year old. I don't know if he's got a kicking game yet.

Trinder and Daly look like they've got the skills to play 12, if not necessarily the physicality, but it would probably be a waste of their pace.

Twelvetrees is probably the best bet, between him and Barritt we hopefully will have two very good 12's who can both offer different things to the team depending upon the situation.

Agree about JTH, he's a very competent prem player but I just don't think he can transfer that to international level. Saying that he's a bit like Nonu when he first started so maybe a late bloomer (compared to todays youngsters). I would say that he was probably told to go on and be safe first, as when he's come on we've been protecting a lead with a few minutes to go.

Just watching Toulon v Quins...

What about Stefon Armitage going to SA? Any chance...he's looking good...

PS Are him and Basteraud twins??!!

Steffon did immensely well didn't he? He should def be off to SA as the hard grounds there would suit his wrecking ball approach.

Yappy

At a time when we are crying out for a 7...we have one playing like that for a top side...who is rediculously quick for his rotund size and yet has some serious power and skill, and is an actual 7. No brainer for me.

I was one who believed he should have been in years ago...but Johno never seemed to like him.

Maybe now its his time.

6 Robshaw
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

has a nice ring to it...pace, power, ball carrying, breakdown excellance...huge workrate......maybe only really missing Crofts lineout ability....

Geordie, both Armitage and Morgan have speed and that stocky build which makes them tricky to bring down and invaluable in heavy traffic. I'm not sure what was with Johnos's backrow selections, he didn't like Robshaw either.

I really like that backrow and i'd have Lawes and Croft on the bench with the idea that both can cover lock and 6 depending upon what we need. If we're being bullied and need more bite then bring Lawes to 6 and Robshaw 7 but if it's opening up bring on Croft and maybe take off Robshaw (I don't think his place is a cert and there's no harm in trying out others).

How about for the midweekers:
6. Lawes
7. Armitage
8. Dowson (any other 8's?)

I wish Haskal was around, i'd take him at 8 in that backrow and have him as captain for the mid weekers all tour.

yappysnap wrote:Geordie, both Armitage and Morgan have speed and that stocky build which makes them tricky to bring down and invaluable in heavy traffic. I'm not sure what was with Johnos's backrow selections, he didn't like Robshaw either.

I really like that backrow and i'd have Lawes and Croft on the bench with the idea that both can cover lock and 6 depending upon what we need. If we're being bullied and need more bite then bring Lawes to 6 and Robshaw 7 but if it's opening up bring on Croft and maybe take off Robshaw (I don't think his place is a cert and there's no harm in trying out others).

How about for the midweekers:
6. Lawes
7. Armitage
8. Dowson (any other 8's?)

I wish Haskal was around, i'd take him at 8 in that backrow and have him as captain for the mid weekers all tour.

For the midweek fixtures I wouldn't mind seeing Joe Lauchbury get a shot at six (maybe on the bench covering second row and back row), he is making a big difference in the Wasps vs. Biarritz match considering the weight advantage Wasps are giving away up front.

Launchberry should definitely be in the touring part, Wade as well looks like a quality player and one of the few Wasps comfy with ball in hand.