Joe Schmidt's rugby philosophy is more suited to Ireland than Kidney's

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Leinster's game at the weekend was embarrassing for Cardiff Blues. But the Irish coaching team should be blushing too. Leinster's attacking play is simply on a different planet to Ireland's. Now before anyone says it, I know that the Irish pack won't often dominate test packs the way Leinster dominate club packs. But that just gives us even more reason to look at how we attack when we do get good ball.

Look at Leinster's overall rugby philosophy. It's completely different to Kidney's. It's about making space and exploiting the space. The decoys, the lines, the precision, the passing. It's all designed to make space and run into it. Stuart Barnes wrote a decent article on it in the Sunday Times yesterday. As most teams are increasingly getting huge guys to run straight into each other, Leinster are cutting teams apart in the vintage Kiwi style. I know this is not the only way to play effective rugby. Winning rugby is winning rugby, no matter what the style. But you need a style that suits the players you have, and suits the post ELV's game.

Look at the players at Ireland's disposal at the moment. Sexton, Earls, Bowe, Kearney etc. Look at the players young players coming through. Baby Kearney, Gilroy, Zebo, Madigan etc. The guys we have are not particularly big. The guys coming through at the moment are probably even smaller. But they are fast and skillful. They won't get far by bashing and kicking. They will score tries by playing Joe Schmidt's way. Under EOS we fully committed to a backs oriented style and our win rate was the highest Ireland have ever had. Because we had the players to play that way. We still do. And our pack is better now than it was back then.

Our players are better than the Welsh ones. But Wales have a gameplan that suits them perfectly and they're now the best team in Europe. Leinster are brilliantly coached in a style of play that suits the skills of the players. O'Driscoll's absence wasn't even noticed, because the entire team attack like a well oiled machine. Ireland have a gameplan that is completely unsuited to them and are staggering from poor performance to poor performance and going nowhere. Schmidt's philosophy is clearly waaaay more suited to the Irish players than Declan Kidney's. Repeatedly kicking and bashing a team into submission can work for some teams. But it will never work for the players we have.

The current coaching team can't bring us forward. I'd like Schmidt to be Ireland coach. I think we'd see our win rate rocket upwards under him. And we would play in a way that would bring back the currently absent Lansdowne roar. If fans from any other province couldn't stomach the Leinster coach becoming Ireland coach, then we should get somebody with a similar rugby philosophy to Schmidt. While our stars are dominating the Heineken Cup, our kids are dominating the Pro 12. Ireland's performances under Kidney are unacceptable.

I know I sound like a broken record on the subject of Kidney. But Ireland's performances for the last three years are really bugging me.

why would u doubt it very much that leinster wouldnt beat wales? leinster on current form would be more than a match for any side in the world and im including new zealand...

I can't tell when people are joking or not on here to be honest.

Well I wouldn't go as far as saying they'd beat New Zealand but I would still say Leinster are currently better than Ireland, mainly due to their tactics and how they are playing the game compared with the Irish set up at the moment.

Morgannwg, would you find that so hard to believe?

I find it hard to believe they would beat Wales at the moment.

Morgannwg wrote:I can't tell when people are joking or not on here to be honest.

I can tell you that they truly believe they would beat Wales (easy) and would run the ABs close..

But really would Leinster ( on current) have been more than a match for New zealand on say the 23rd October last year,which was the last time there was an All Black team.

But to assist the arguement, I was discussing the Stormers the other day with Biltong and I voiced my opinion that I see a lot of similarities ,at the moment, between the style and execution of play between Leinster and the Stormers.

To be honest I don't care about how good welsh fans think the Wales team are, I want Ireland to have a coaching team that makes Ireland the best rugby team possible. We have the players to compete with any team on the planet and we currently aren't doing that. The 6 nations was a disaster to lose to the teams we lost to and in the manner of the defeat/draw was unacceptable. So I think change has to come soon. Is Schmidt the man? I truly hope so, if there is any team in European rugby that I want Ireland to play like it's leinster. I suppose the most important questions is could he translate the his magic to international rugby? Surely it's at least worth a punt, kidney can't, so schmidt must be next in line.

"To be honest I don't care about how good welsh fans think the Wales team are..."

Where-as the Welsh folk probably don't care about how good Leinster fans think the Leinster team are.

I don't think Leinster would beat the All Blacks and it would be hard to predict the outcome of any provincial side vs a national side because you would presume the national side would be stronger. But, I still believe Leinster are better team than Ireland at the moment. As a group Ireland have stronger players but they are not clicking as a team (I blame the coach and our tactics) while Leinster are producing great rugby under Schmidt.

Lets face it, it wouldn't be a huge shock it Leinster beat a touring national side. Munster beat Australia and ran New Zealand close in recent games between the two sides.

Thats Ok mate, I just presumed that "More then a match" was tantamount to beating a team.

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah, I'd say they are superior in most aspects. Size, pace, strength, skill; they have proved that on the field so I don't see how Feckless could say the opposite. Munster and Leinster are very good teams. Could they beat Wales? No, I doubt it very much. These things aren't always linked, NZ didn't win the S15 but won a world cup. Wales won't win in the European comp, may not win the domestic one but have already won the 6 Nations and our players are quite spread out among 4 as opposed to just 2.

I agree that in the backs Wales are faster, bigger and stronger. I do not agree they are more skilful, not by a long shot. Nor are the forwards bigger and stronger. The irish players best attribute is their natural skills IMO, but the international team does not prove this as they do not play to their strengths (the point of this article). Wales have proved it on the field internationally that they are big and strong and can score tries, yet in the HEC they are beaten by these apparently inferior irish players. Do the players suddenly step up on the international stage, or does the game plan that Gatland is playing suit them more? A physical, fast paced game. I would say it is quite clear.

The provinces (especially Leinster) play a type of game that suits their players, the polar opposite of what Ireland does atm. Also the comments about clubs beating international teams is hardly that ridiculous as this has happened before (look at Munster like). It is quite clear that Leinster, Munster and Ulster are much better teams right now than Ireland, for the simple reason that they play a structured game plan that suits the teams. Regardless of whether NZ or Wales or whoever are better than their clubs, that doesn't mean Leinster/Munster/Ulster are not better right now than Ireland.

Also the irish team is pretty evenly spread out among 3 teams atm, bit of a silly comment to say there are just 2 teams representing.

why is it so hard to believe that leinster would beat wales? look at how bad ireland played against wales and we lost by a last min pen from halfpenny...leinster are a far better team then the national side so why couldnt leinster beat wales?

Simply because I cant even imagine Leinster playing Wales.

fair enough

Kidney is stuck in the past. He is the Enda Kenny of world rugby. A school teacher who is now out of his depth and doesn't understand the intricacies of modern rugby. His coaching style complemented Munster and he should be commended for his achievements but his inability to evolve and break his 1d mould means Ireland are possibly the most predictable team in world rugby. We are definitly not playing to our strengths.

Oh for gods sake why is it so hard to believe that Leinster aren't the best team in the world? They'd have no hope of beating the Grand Slam team.

"No hope of beating the grand slam team"

Nice to have a giggle on a Friday. Cheers.

The reason Leinster are probably better than Ireland at the moment is because many of Leinsters best players play for Ireland already. Those that don't are either as good as or better than their Irish opposite number (Nacewa, Thorn etc.). Above all though it is logical that a team that plays week in week out is going to be better drilled and more cohesive than a team that only gets together for a few months a year. Not hard to understand.

Wales beat a badly underperforming Ireland side by 2 points. They were gifted a non penalty by the ref. Wales are good but if Ireland can come close Leinster would probably beat them.

Well I'm not a Leinster fan but believe Leinster would beat Wales 9-7, with Wales 7 points coming from a try off an illegal lineout throw or some other skullduggary and Jonny Sexton would miss at least 3 place kicks.

FACT.

Zzzzzzzzzz, I'm from Leinster and I live in dreamland with the Mad Hatter.

Morgannwg wrote:Zzzzzzzzzz, I'm from Leinster and I live in dreamland with the Mad Hatter.

I thought you were welsh. Don't know about dream land but dreams do come true at the RDS and when Ross puts on his scrum cap he is like a mad hatter. Allez les Blue!!

mike ross, what a hero.

I knew this was destined to mutate into a Wales vs Ireland catfight the minute I read "Our players are better than the Welsh ones".

I respectfully disagree, without looking to join in with the theatrics. For one thing I can't see how a well-coached Leinster side trouncing, by contrast, a very poorly-coached Blues outfit proves that Ireland currently have a better crop of players than Wales do. I mean, the Blues have quite arguably been the worst Welsh region since the end of the 6N. In any case, Ospreys beat Schmidt's Leinster at the RDS a mere two weeks before the Heino game.

Secondly, you can't put the fact that Ireland have lacked ideas and intelligence in their last three games against Wales squarely down to Kidney. He may be partly to blame but he has a batch of players who have shown regularly that they know how to win games provincially. He can't be hitting some invisible switch that just flicks them into mediocre mode, some of their tactical errors are made by the players and the players alone. Or are there people that really believe that they're so uncreative and dependent on the coach's plan that their success is down totally to the quality of the coach? France showed during the WC what players can be capable of with or without a shoddy coach.

I think Kidneygate is becoming too sensationalist personally. Only one year have Ireland fully backed up their club form and that itself was ironically Kidney's first year. Leinster are on a high, it'll peter out at some point like they all do, Ireland are not on a high which makes it that much easier to pretend being sure that Ireland would be a world force with Schmidt in charge. In reality, there would probably come a time where he took Ireland as far as he could and then some of his shortcomings would become apparent. Not many coaches enjoy limitless success with any side.

The argument was that Leinster would beat Wales not that that Ireland have better players.

Secondly you begin by saying that it's not kidneys fault and conclude by saying say that he has taken Ireland as far as he can. Slight contradiction.

Fact is we aren't playing to our strengths. Kidneys rugby philosophies are dated and we need a change.

Regarding the 09 slam. If enough people try to open a jar enough times someone will eventually open it and get the credit.

that is a bit harsh kidney has shown he prepares people for each game like at munster.

Problem is his each game plan doesn't always work.

Yes Wales have beaten us three times but lets not forget

Spring 11 dodgy try who knows what would have happened.
World Cup 11 they caught us cold we forget that we got level only for Philips to get an individaul try and as we pushed they got the final one. Take out Philips try and Ireland were on the up
Spring 12 Wales are allowed back into it by the players not kidney. They let them march up the pitch at munster it was and is bash what moves and make sure it doesn't move

Spring 13 Wales will lose come fourth Irland will get 2nd and wales are bottlers and this last six months was a blip.

Remember that this wales team has not beaten any team in the top seven by more then ten and have loss more games against them then they have won in the last 15 months, hardly amaseing.

The six nations is all about 5% nothing more. Wales will be found out and it will be back to on their Wales can beat anyone

The French played great against NZ in the final because they basically locked Mad Marc out of the dressing room. The Irish wouldn't do that. I don't think they should. Their jobs are to follow the coaching teams orders and implement their game plan.

I think I explained quite clearly why I think the Kidney/Kiss/Smal game plan is wrong for Ireland and the players we have. It's costing us results, and it's not going to magically start working over the next 18 months.

When I said that I think Ireland have better players than Wales I was just stating my honest opinion. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing.

Most people would agree that Schmidt is a very good attack oriented coach, who gets wonderful attacking play out his team and also has a knack for making the right substitutions at the right time and is great at squad rotation. If he continues the way he's been going, I'd like him to be the Irish head coach at the end of Kidneys tenure. And I think we'd be back in with a shout of winning the 6 Nations or at least actually winning more than half our home games.

I do agree Kidney should be doing better and the IRFU should be forcing coaches on him not doing the oh they'll be fine rubbish that we're stuck with.

Couldn't see why Ireland didn't do a Farrell type thing on it for the six nations with Smit or the ulster attack coach

Secondly you begin by saying that it's not kidneys fault and conclude by saying say that he has taken Ireland as far as he can. Slight contradiction.

Where did I say that? I said it would probably (not definitely) be what would happen if Schmidt was in charge but where did I say Kidney had taken them as far as he could?

Dont know how it descended into a Wales vs Ireland thing but anyway.

Ireland in the provinces have a setup that brings out the best in the players which at international level we are sorely lacking. In Wales the reverse is true. I wouldnt say there is much between the players of each nation but wales 100% deserved to win the last 3 games against us as we were shocking and we have been for quite a while. This has to lie at the feet of Kidney

We need a coach that understands what gameplan suits the players and can bring us onto the next level. I think Kidney deserves a huge amount of credit for 09 (which he often doesnt get) but since then hes been found lacking. If nothing else a new coach will provide a bit of fresh air for the team as we have gone stale.

The provinces quite clearly work to fulfil their respective players' strengths. As I have already stated, irish players rely heavily on their natural skills or abilities than size or pace. They like to play a fast paced, expansive game. Kidney does not utilise this. In fact if Ireland produced backs that were as big and fast as the welsh backs, I'm sure Kidney's game plan would look a lot better. However, this is clearly not the case. We have smaller players, but smarter players. Ireland do not play to their strengths. The provinces do.

Wales are a better team than Ireland
Leinster are a better team than Ireland
In fact I am far from convinced Ireland would beat Ulster or Munster

geoff998rugby wrote:Wales are a better team than Ireland
Leinster are a better team than Ireland
In fact I am far from convinced Ireland would beat Ulster or Munster

Well considering Ireland have the capability of taking vital players away from Leinster, Munster and Ulster and adding them to their own ranks, it might be tougher than anticipated

Hey Knowsit didn't you hear? Leinster can beat the All Blacks.

Kidney doesn't believe in the ability of the Irish backs - Schmidt does. Will Kidney suddenly find that belief - can't see it?

leinster v wales would be very close. wales have won 3 grand slams in what 7 years so they must be doing something right. ironically this current welsh team for me is a bit more functional and smart than previous ones. They have serious levels of fitness and their defence is outstanding.

we would not beat the all blacks at all. the all blacks have both power, pace and skill not to mention dan carter. their execution would be simply too good. they would kill drico and darcy in midfield

Brendan wrote:Couldn't see why Ireland didn't do a Farrell type thing on it for the six nations with Smit or the ulster attack coach

Whose the Ulster attack coach