Young talent : Who's got the best

Everyone it seems to have an unprecedented tidal flow coming through

A bit of current form:

Senior
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&Code=5730112&statType=

1 Wales 5 5 0 0 109 58 51 0 0 10 young established squad
2 England 5 4 0 1 98 71 27 0 0 8 young early post-transition squad
3 Ireland 5 2 1 2 121 94 27 0 0 5 in-transition squad
4 France 5 2 1 2 101 86 15 0 0 5 pre-transition squad
5 Italy 5 1 0 4 53 121 -68 0 0 2 hopeful squad
6 Scotland 5 0 0 5 56 108 -52 0 0 0 basket case with some baby Moseses apparently floating in the reeds

U20s
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&Code=9891233&statType=

1 England U20 5 4 0 1 169 40 129 8
2 France U20 5 4 0 1 109 63 46 8
3 Ireland U20 5 4 0 1 86 46 40 8
4 Wales U20 5 2 0 3 89 125 -36 4
5 Scotland U20 5 1 0 3 59 134 -75 2
6 Italy U20 5 0 0 5 60 138 -78 0

U18's
In the recent FIRA-AER Tournament, Wales, Ireland and England all performed well

It depends at what level you want to judge them - Realistically the only barometer is at the highest level so who's got the most young players in a successful international team?

RubyGuby wrote:It depends at what level you want to judge them - Realistically the only barometer is at the highest level so who's got the most young players in a successful international team?

Ruby - I forgot to include the poll (pls see updated op)

Based on international's I would say wales with England and Scotland close behind.

Ireland have some very good young players in the wings but Kidney has been very conservative in his selection.

I haven't seen many top 14 games so i can't comment on young players coming through in France

Voters for Ireland & Italy, please be patient. They were included in the poll but never got included.

I've PMed Biltong as he's on-line.

Wales's U20 team is suffering from the better players going straight into the senior squad. Any one of Faletau, Lydiate, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert and George North can play for the U20 if they wanted to but are playing for the seniors.

England have the stronger age grade sides but we're unable to transform this onto the senior set-up.

Wales have done a good job of transforming quality youngsters into international players so I'd probably say Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:Wales's U20 team is suffering from the better players going straight into the senior squad. Any one of Faletau, Lydiate, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert and George North can play for the U20 if they wanted to but are playing for the seniors.

Not entirely true though is it?

Scott Williams: 21 (Not eligible this year)
Alex Cuthbert 21 (Not eligible this year)
Dan Lydiate 24 (Definitely not eligible this year)
Toby Faletau 21 (Not eligible this year)
George North 19 (Is eligible and would tear the U20 stage up)

Cumbrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Wales's U20 team is suffering from the better players going straight into the senior squad. Any one of Faletau, Lydiate, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert and George North can play for the U20 if they wanted to but are playing for the seniors.

Not entirely true though is it?

Scott Williams: 21 (Not eligible this year)
Alex Cuthbert 21 (Not eligible this year)
Dan Lydiate 24 (Definitely not eligible this year)
Toby Faletau 21 (Not eligible this year)
George North 19 (Is eligible and would tear the U20 stage up)

I did not mean now, what I meant is as soon as a player is good enough he is usually cherry picked from the U20 and put straight into the first team, Gatland has always done this, he has done it with Halfpenny, Tom Prydie, John Davies, Dan Biggar, and he will continue to do it and as a result the U20's will suffer. I do apologise for perhaps not making myself more clear in what I meant but this is the jist of what I am trying to say.

Wales have loads, and a lot of young regional players you don't know about yet.

No problem sir

As it is I think Wales have done better with their players at the moment. But I think there is some serious talent coming through the age grade ranks for England. As an England fan I'm really looking forward to seeing how things unfold over the next couple of years.

Portnoy wrote:Voters for Ireland & Italy, please be patient. They were included in the poll but never got included.

I've PMed Biltong as he's on-line.

Well Ireland & Italy voters will be pleased to learn that they can now vote.

The downside is that for Englishmen who have voted, their votes are now cast Ireland.

Hey ho...

In better news you can cancel vote but someone insisted they wanted it in alphabetical order so not all is lost

Fernando wrote:In better news you can cancel vote but someone insisted they wanted it in alphabetical order so not all is lost

I actually said that it was intended to be in reverse alphabetical order.

But it's not the end of the world.

Talking about young talent, there's always the English Women's U20s
http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/WomenU20.aspx

Its how the young talent is brought through by the Clubs/Regions that matters.

Some of the young stars of the Welsh set up such as, Faletau, Lydiate, Davies, North, Williams and Priestland have been brought through by their Regions out of neccesity and due to not being able to afford to sign big names.

It may have been seen as a gamble initially but one that is paying off.

England easily

gowales wrote:England easily

I was talking about Under 20s rugby with a kiwi friend of mine who's son qualifies for England Under 20s this year at an Easter dinner last weekend. He said that he thinks the under 20s are actually a very negative part of England's set up despite their northern hemisphere dominance because they don't teach the players to play good rugby, its rather win at all costs pick the biggest guys and make them run endlessly at the opposition until they run out of tacklers.

He would rather his son were playing in his native New Zealand where the players are in progress, developing their game coaching is directed at their future not the present.

Interesting point Maes. If we're talking about style and relative success then it's probably got to be the Irish. Our boys are pretty kak most of the time, the past few years haven't impressed me tbh. The last good U20 side we had was in 2008 with JD, Halfpenny, Tovey etc.

Last years welsh team played some great rugby but was a very young team. This years was also a very young side.

Thing is the Welsh Under 20s are more focused on the JRWC than the six nations this year. Making a lot of changes throughout the tournament. Squad building. Still a very young side without many players having played previously and as pointed out above missing players like Matthew Morgan, Stephen Shingler, George North, Rhodri Williams, Tom Habberfield etc etc etc

Swings and roundabouts IMO, its how these players are developed.

England have in the past been very poor at this, giving a young player a handful of caps and then discarding them is very damaging to their confidence. This is an area I believe Lancaster will excel in as he has already shown he isn’t afraid to drop players to try youngsters out and to stick by them if things aren’t going their way, people forget Ashton is still only 25 and his best years could be yet to come.

Wales seem to bring players through better than any other home nation, I’d like to say that this isn’t down to the Regions but in truth it is, as when the senior internationals are picking their games or resting with their feet up the young guns are playing more 1st team rugby than any young English player would get in the JEFF, plus because there is only four teams they are use to playing with each other, familiarity can only help in a players development.

I think it's pretty obvious considering a bunch of wailing highchair SMA eating toddlers just won the Grand Slam!!

idris wrote:I think it's pretty obvious considering a bunch of wailing highchair SMA eating toddlers just won the Grand Slam!!

No not really.

England - New management, new players.
France - New management, old and new players.
Ireland - Rubbish management old and poor players.
Scotland - ????????
Italy - New management and poor players

HERSH wrote:

idris wrote:I think it's pretty obvious considering a bunch of wailing highchair SMA eating toddlers just won the Grand Slam!!

No not really.

England - New management, old and new players.
France - New management, old and new players.
Ireland - Rubbish management old and poor players.
Scotland - ????????
Italy - New management and poor players

Yep. Really.

People forget that England scraped 2 wins with 2 chargedowns. They were quite frankly awful. A poor Scotland and a poor Italy handed 2 games to England on a golden platter.

England did however put in two great performances against Ireland and France. England should have only won 2 and were those two wins really down to Lancaster?

I really think finishing 2nd in the table is going to be a massive false dawn for England. The summer tour and autumn will give everyone a real indication of where they are.

It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

beshocked wrote:It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

England have always had amazing under 20's, but then they reach the national side and forget how to play rugby. Much like the Welsh national side forget how to play regional rugby.

idris wrote:

HERSH wrote:

idris wrote:I think it's pretty obvious considering a bunch of wailing highchair SMA eating toddlers just won the Grand Slam!!

No not really.

England - New management, old and new players.
France - New management, old and new players.
Ireland - Rubbish management old and poor players.
Scotland - ????????
Italy - New management and poor players

Yep. Really.

People forget that England scraped 2 wins with 2 chargedowns. They were quite frankly awful. A poor Scotland and a poor Italy handed 2 games to England on a golden platter.

England did however put in two great performances against Ireland and France. England should have only won 2 and were those two wins really down to Lancaster?

I really think finishing 2nd in the table is going to be a massive false dawn for England. The summer tour and autumn will give everyone a real indication of where they are.

People also forget that if England hadn't scored the charge down tries then they might have scored one or two anyway!

Plus many people have already forgotten that England could have scored in the corner to tie the game against Wales plus if Ireland hadn't been robbed by a poor Ref and gutless touch judge then Ireland would have/could have won.

As I said swings and roundabouts

HERSH wrote:

idris wrote:

HERSH wrote:

idris wrote:I think it's pretty obvious considering a bunch of wailing highchair SMA eating toddlers just won the Grand Slam!!

No not really.

England - New management, old and new players.
France - New management, old and new players.
Ireland - Rubbish management old and poor players.
Scotland - ????????
Italy - New management and poor players

Yep. Really.

People forget that England scraped 2 wins with 2 chargedowns. They were quite frankly awful. A poor Scotland and a poor Italy handed 2 games to England on a golden platter.

England did however put in two great performances against Ireland and France. England should have only won 2 and were those two wins really down to Lancaster?

I really think finishing 2nd in the table is going to be a massive false dawn for England. The summer tour and autumn will give everyone a real indication of where they are.

People also forget that if England hadn't scored the charge down tries then they might have scored one or two anyway!

Plus many people have already forgotten that England could have scored in the corner to tie the game against Wales plus if Ireland hadn't been robbed by a poor Ref and gutless touch judge then Ireland would have/could have won.

As I said swings and roundabouts

Could have should have if's but's

Wales "COULD OF" lost all their matches, but they won them all.

Exactly.

Let’s wait till the summer tours as I think Wales will be just as surprised in Aus as England in SA, and not for the better IMO.

HERSH wrote:Exactly.

Let’s wait till the summer tours as I think Wales will be just as surprised in Aus as England in SA, and not for the better IMO.

England "could" have lost by 5, but lost to SA by 50.

Yet another Welsh fan with a crystal ball!

In that case judging on past performances and many years of watching Wales play down-under, Aus will win 2-1 after securing the series win after the first two games, therefore playing their under 20's in the final game narrowly missing out on the win by an unlucky bounce of the ball.

But on their day we all know Wales can beat anyone

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

England have always had amazing under 20's, but then they reach the national side and forget how to play rugby. Much like the Welsh national side forget how to play regional rugby.

England had been sorely missing players in positions in centre.You know there's problems in the centre when England have to resort to the likes of Hape,Banahan and Noon!

Now they can choose the likes of Joseph,Trinder,Tuilagi,Lowe as 13s.

At fly half there the likes of Burns,Ford,Clegg,Farrell and Heathcote.


Who for example have Wales got as U23 fly half equivalent?

HERSH wrote:

Yet another Welsh fan with a crystal ball!

In that case judging on past performances and many years of watching Wales play down-under, Aus will win 2-1 after securing the series win after the first two games, therefore playing their under 20's in the final game narrowly missing out on the win by an unlucky bounce of the ball.

But on their day we all know Wales can beat anyone

Yep and so far this year it's 5 out of 5.

Sometimes I use my crystal ball to look at highlights from the 2003 rugby world cup, but unfortunately it's not powerful enough to look back decades.

beshocked wrote:

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

England have always had amazing under 20's, but then they reach the national side and forget how to play rugby. Much like the Welsh national side forget how to play regional rugby.

England had been sorely missing players in positions in centre.You know there's problems in the centre when England have to resort to the likes of Hape,Banahan and Noon!

Now they can choose the likes of Joseph,Trinder,Tuilagi,Lowe as 13s.

At fly half there the likes of Burns,Ford,Clegg,Farrell and Heathcote.


Who for example have Wales got as U23 fly half equivalent?

Centre is a very interesting position. Wales have talent in abundance and England cannot find any home grown centres.

England:

Barritt
Tuilagi
Hape
Flutey

Wales:

Roberts
Davies
Williams
Hook
Henson
Beck
North?

The list is endless.

Pay off our stadium debt and we will trade you a centre or two

The very fact you have mentioned 2003 shows that it still hurts

But in a way you are correct the style of rugby played back then is very different to the current style, and by 2015 it will have changed again.

In truth I think Wales missed out big time by not winning the RWC in 2011 as that was your year, and who knows how long it will take for that chance to come round again?

Is there trouble at mill in t'fly-half factory oop t'valleys?

HERSH wrote:The very fact you have mentioned 2003 shows that it still hurts

But in a way you are correct the style of rugby played back then is very different to the current style, and by 2015 it will have changed again.

In truth I think Wales missed out big time by not winning the RWC in 2011 as that was your year, and who knows how long it will take for that chance to come round again?

Wales are better now than they were last year so 2015 can be Wales' year too.

It doesn't hurt. I think what hurts for you is that you win the ultimate rugby tournament, but in the subsequent 9 years you cannot even win a grand slam.

I just find it sad that you are going to become a carbon copy of 1966 football fans. The present and the future is what matters. The past is very nice but how do you hope to improve and win more tournaments if all you can fall back on is something that happened nearly 10 years ago. Wales did not dwell on 2005. They just went and won another two.

idris wrote:

HERSH wrote:The very fact you have mentioned 2003 shows that it still hurts

But in a way you are correct the style of rugby played back then is very different to the current style, and by 2015 it will have changed again.

In truth I think Wales missed out big time by not winning the RWC in 2011 as that was your year, and who knows how long it will take for that chance to come round again?

Wales are better now than they were last year so 2015 can be Wales' year too.

It doesn't hurt. I think what hurts for you is that you win the ultimate rugby tournament, but in the subsequent 9 years you cannot even win a grand slam.

I just find it sad that you are going to become a carbon copy of 1966 football fans. The present and the future is what matters. The past is very nice but how do you hope to improve and win more tournaments if all you can fall back on is something that happened nearly 10 years ago. Wales did not dwell on 2005. They just went and won another two.

"Wales are better now than they were last year so 2015 can be Wales’s year too."



That's the spirit, the only trouble with that is by 2015 NZ, SA, Aus and dare I say it France and England will also be better too.

How many World Cup finals have the England football team had?

so to compare the England rugby team to that is a rather poor effort, plus I couldn't careless about Wendyball, unlike the youngsters growing up in Wales who now follow football more than rugby at club level, that my friend will have a serious knock on effect in future years for Welsh rugby.

I didn't say you cared about football, but you are becoming exactly like a football supporter.

Instead of looking to the future you bleat to opposing fans about events from the Jurassic period, while in front of your eyes the other teams over take you. Even Scotland are overtaking England.

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

England have always had amazing under 20's, but then they reach the national side and forget how to play rugby. Much like the Welsh national side forget how to play regional rugby.

England had been sorely missing players in positions in centre.You know there's problems in the centre when England have to resort to the likes of Hape,Banahan and Noon!

Now they can choose the likes of Joseph,Trinder,Tuilagi,Lowe as 13s.

At fly half there the likes of Burns,Ford,Clegg,Farrell and Heathcote.


Who for example have Wales got as U23 fly half equivalent?

Centre is a very interesting position. Wales have talent in abundance and England cannot find any home grown centres.

England:

Barritt
Tuilagi
Hape
Flutey

Wales:

Roberts
Davies
Williams
Hook
Henson
Beck
North?

The list is endless.

Pay off our stadium debt and we will trade you a centre or two

I love it you name North then say the list is endless.

Of that list only Beck,Williams and Davies are U23.

13s like Lowe,Trinder,Joseph are certainly English!

Also Henson hardly counts because he can't even get into the Cardiff team!

Henson doesn't even have a club and I don't think there are any English centres better than him, although there is this 14 year old Micronesian lad, but he doesn't count yet as his papers haven't come through!

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:

idris wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's obviously England.

U18s and U20s champions in Europe.

So much strength in depth coming through.


Just at my club Saracens we have the likes of Farrell,Spencer,Kruis,Wray,Vunipola,Spurling,Ransom,Watson,Fraser, George.

That's just 1 club.

England have always had amazing under 20's, but then they reach the national side and forget how to play rugby. Much like the Welsh national side forget how to play regional rugby.

England had been sorely missing players in positions in centre.You know there's problems in the centre when England have to resort to the likes of Hape,Banahan and Noon!

Now they can choose the likes of Joseph,Trinder,Tuilagi,Lowe as 13s.

At fly half there the likes of Burns,Ford,Clegg,Farrell and Heathcote.


Who for example have Wales got as U23 fly half equivalent?

Centre is a very interesting position. Wales have talent in abundance and England cannot find any home grown centres.

England:

Barritt
Tuilagi
Hape
Flutey

Wales:

Roberts
Davies
Williams
Hook
Henson
Beck
North?

The list is endless.

Pay off our stadium debt and we will trade you a centre or two

Manu came through the English academy system, so he is 'home grown'. If you want to get technical, it is inside centre that England are struggling with. We have a number of very good young 13's coming through

idris wrote:I didn't say you cared about football, but you are becoming exactly like a football supporter.

Instead of looking to the future you bleat to opposing fans about events from the Jurassic period, while in front of your eyes the other teams over take you. Even Scotland are overtaking England.

Keep calm,

I never mentioned 2003 until you raised it, also how exactly are Scotland overtaking England?

I'm rather puzzled by that way of thinking, did we not finish 2nd and Scotland 6th in this years 6 nations.

Seems to me like you are trying to create an argument or are just a very bitter person towards all things English?
Which is fine if that’s what you want to do but its not really following the tradition of treating your fellow rugby supporters with respect, it more suited to the football way of thinking, each to their own of course

Just giving you the facts that's all. Edinburgh in the heineken cup semi's is just the start. No Dan Parks next year so Scotland won't be as generous.

When was I not calm?

When you don't have anything to say you always say everyone is is trying to cause an argument. Why is everyone picking on me? etc etc... Maybe it is not everyone?

idris wrote:Henson doesn't even have a club and I don't think there are any English centres better than him, although there is this 14 year old Micronesian lad, but he doesn't count yet as his papers haven't come through!

Only a Welshman would praise Henson as a deity.

Numerous English centres are better than the overrated tango man.

Tango man hasn't got a club. Just shows how valuable he is.

Are there any English centres currently playing who have won 2 slams and a Lions cap?

Don't think so. So the point that he is currently the best around stands.

idris wrote:Are there any English centres currently playing who have won 2 slams and a Lions cap?

Don't think so. So the point that he is was currently the best around stands.

Fixed that for you

Right now he's about as much use as Tindall.

idris wrote:Just giving you the facts that's all. Edinburgh in the heineken cup semi's is just the start. No Dan Parks next year so Scotland won't be as generous.

When was I not calm?

When you don't have anything to say you always say everyone is is trying to cause an argument. Why is everyone picking on me? etc etc... Maybe it is not everyone?

As I said keep calm,

Edinburgh have done very well to get to the SF of the HC, but I fail to see how that effects international rugby seeing as Scotland finished in 6th place at this years 6 nations?

One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that, this was a discussion about who had the most talented youngsters yet you have turned it into a Wales are better than England, player qualification and all the other nonsense that raises it head when someone is feeling out of their depth in a sensible rational debate.

If you are simply talking about achievements then how about Mike Tindall?

A RWC and a grandslam trumps whatever Tango man has done.

Tindall > Henson.

Neither can get in their national squads though.

To be fair Tindall is past it, but is still a good clubman for Glaws unlike Mr Tango man.