So what does Ulster’s Quarter Final win mean? Really!! To me!

First topic message reminder :

This isn’t an article about how many or how few Ulster players get International recognition, nor is it a pop at Munster about who might be the current second best provincial team. It’s not even an “I told you so” to all those good friends who have had to endure countless hours of me telling them how good this Ulster team was and what could ultimately be achieved.

Lat year when the HC draw was made I cringed, as I’m sure many other Ulstermen did. Clermont and Leicester, two heavyweights of European rugby, stood in the way of at least equalling last years Quarter Final achievement. Me, I always though we were good enough. Never bragged though! At least not when I was sober . Like last years team, maybe I was thankful for small mercies. Getting to a QF after 12 years trying was, after all, a marvellous achievement.
Many thought Ulster overachieved last year. Would they settle for another Magners League/Rabo top four place? Would this be seen as progress? Not if you were a true Ulster supporter, we had tasted soup at the top table and liked it. We wanted more. But wait!! After a reasonable start we dipped in the league. Our better players were at the World Cup or injured. We were “a team in crisis”. Could our season be turned around? Clermont came to Ravenhill and the question was answered. The rest, including an amazing night against Leicester, is history.
We needed results to go our way and thankfully they did. Who will ever forget the wet Friday night in Galway when Connacht turned over the mighty Quins?
So an away win in a Quarter Final at Fortress Thomond Park. Not possible they said. Only done once in the HC. This Munster team were unbeaten in this years competition. Even I had my doubts. (See my prediction on Sport Guru!!).
Yesterday’s result was a wake up to anyone who doubted this Ulster team. The desire to win has never been illustrated so well. Players who were prepared to put their bodies in places where most of us mortals wouldn’t even contemplate came through the test. Victory in the “Lions den” achieved, even though there were those who though it wasn’t possible. There were those who predicted an Ulster win but did they really believe it? Am I happy we didn’t beat Clermont in the South of France? Maybe a little bit. It was maybe better to meet Munster in Thomond than in the Aviva!
I went to Milton Keynes last year and stood watching a team that maybe felt they had reached their goal. It was an admirable performance. Sure we might have won but it was great achievement to get to the knock-out stages after 12 years of trying. That and a semi-final in the league was more that we could have wished for. Sure given the success of Leinster and Munster this was more than could be expected. We had closed the gap hadn’t we? But there were those including me who thought we could and should have done better. Especially in Dublin against a Leinster team with an eye on the HC Final.
I was at the HC final last year. Sang my heart out for Leinster (and make no excuses) and came away wishing it was Ulster. In 1999 I don’t think people really realised what Ulster achieved. For many years we have had to endure taunts that the competition was without the English teams. We beat what was put in front of us that year. The best the French (Welsh, Scots and Irish) could put forward!
We now stand in a place where many thought it wasn’t possible. Win against Edinburgh at “home” and a game against Leinster or Clermont awaits us. If we can get past Edinburgh, and I won’t be taking anything for granted, I will sit beside my friends in Twickenham supporting my own team. How good will that be?
Stand Up For The Ulstermen!!

I don't like the way McLaughlin was ditched. Winning the HC or the PRO12 would really make a mockery of that decision.

Maybe the Ulster branch know this unkown Kiwi guy is a great coach. But in what way has McLaughlin shown he's not up to the job and needs to be replaced?

Yes that's true - they're also to blame for the Middle East crisis, the Titanic sinking and for the re-naming of the marathon bar to Snickers... Those pesky South Africans...

I'm not sure how the coaching decision could be explained any clearer than it already has been many times. The decision was made months ago to find a coach to replace BM so that he could take on the Academy role that gave him the job security he wanted...etc etc etc (yawn)

To be fair the decision was made a while ago, end of last season, and he did do through a bad patch (anyone remember Ulster in Crisis).

I think he wanted the post as well, better to have a guarenteed job with Ulster than a performance based job, if the amount of your pension is at risk.

I'm disappointed about the coach situation too but I think it needs to be emphasised that BM has not been "ditched".

He is still employed by Ulster rugby.

Yeah I know. I just don't believe he wanted the other post more. And I don't believe it because I saw his face and his body language at the press conference when it was officially announced. He looked sick.

I dont think its right, but lets look at the bright side here. I can't wait to see who BM brings through for us from the academy!

Imagine how much the young kids will look up to and respect him. In 5 years we may not need so many of those pesky south africans!

I think the right move for Ulster is to strengthen our Academy. I wish it hadn't turned out like this for McLaughs- he's my favourite ever Ulster coach. I say that without any exaggeration. He's a great guy and a great coach, and he's as passionate as any Ulster fan about this team.

But we have to invest a lot of money and expertise into our Academy if we want to reach a level where we are self-sustaining as one of the top teams in Europe and that means we need coaches of genuine class in the Academy to make sure the players who do come through have everything they need to be successful.

I think it's easier to replace what McLaughlin can bring as Head Coach rather than what he can bring as an Academy coach. My biggest worry is that other clubs will go after him if we win the Cup. He's essential to the future of Ulster and we should do everything we can to retain him.

I have the utmost respect for Ulster but the way the McLaughlin situation was handled was poor in my opinion.

Also I don't think you can say the last 5 years steady improvment is done to imports.

We were a very good team before Celtic cup 2005, and Celtic League champs 2006 and before that finishing in 2nd/3rd in league normally. But after 2006 we hit a slump, coaching was bad there were fallouts which made Players leave/some removed N Best, Wilson, Bowe. injury to S Best etc etc, saw us hit a slump.

Ulster were never going to recover from that slump quickly, young players needed time to come through, now we are seeing Ulster getting back to where they belong.

If Leinster acamady had a few lean years, plus a mass exoudus of senior players it would take them a number of years to get back to where they are now, but they would get back and you can't say when they did it was because of overseas player (they help) but it's was a slump

Feckless Rogue wrote:Yeah I know. I just don't believe he wanted the other post more. And I don't believe it because I saw his face and his body language at the press conference when it was officially announced. He looked sick.

I don't believe he wanted it more either and I don't think Ulster ever planned to keep him on beyond this season. In fairness the team wasn't going so well prior to Xmas when the final descision was likely made.

If BM was really so unhappy at the way Ulster treated him though then he wouldn't be staying on.

As I said I'm not comfortable about the whole thing myself but I think there is a lot of nonsence going around about this and its being blown out of proportion.

Someone posted earlier that there are rumours that Ulsters SA contingient are behind it!

I think BM was reasonably happy to have the security of the long term contract that the Academy post offered but he would really have loved to have had a bit more time with the senior team. Unfortunately the security he wanted to enable him to resign his teaching post and the position of Head Coach are mutually exclusive.

I suspect that the Ulster management wanted someone new now rather than give BM another year. I think it will work out extremely well for Ulster having BM in charge of the Academy. If the new guy has any sense he will use BM with the senior team too as a skills coach.

Rodders, do you mean that someone is saying that the SAs wanted BM moved?

Yes Mrs P one of the Leinsters fans posted it earlier somewhere. Can't remember which thread.

Ah ha!

That explains it rodders!

Just thoseuns trying to stir up discontent!

It's a crisis, I tell ye

roddersm wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Yeah I know. I just don't believe he wanted the other post more. And I don't believe it because I saw his face and his body language at the press conference when it was officially announced. He looked sick.

I don't believe he wanted it more either and I don't think Ulster ever planned to keep him on beyond this season. In fairness the team wasn't going so well prior to Xmas when the final descision was likely made.

If BM was really so unhappy at the way Ulster treated him though then he wouldn't be staying on.

As I said I'm not comfortable about the whole thing myself but I think there is a lot of nonsence going around about this and its being blown out of proportion.

Someone posted earlier that there are rumours that Ulsters SA contingient are behind it!

They probably struggle to pronounce his name.

mik glag lin.

Just seen McGlaughlin on UTV news there... he looked a happy chappy to me!

You simply don't get performances like this past Sunday if the whole team and management are at odds.

In fairness to McLaughlin he has proved a lot of people (myself included) wrong. That being said unless you know the inner dynamics of the set up it is purely idle speculation

On another note there is a man without whom I dont think we could have won on Sunday and that is johann muller. He is our leader IMO.

roddersm wrote:Just seen McGlaughlin on UTV news there... he looked a happy chappy to me!

Perhaps he did, but what about McLaughlin?

Standulstermen wrote:
Rodders

Bus is sorted for those who have tickets already. £15 gets you bus there and back a fry and 2 beers. Need to let me know soon enough as nearly half the space are gone.

Pickup is 12.30pm from the Taphouse and come back at 8.30/9pm. Fry served at 11am ish.

Thats the plan

Stand we decided just to stay down in Dublin after the game. Cheers anyways

Any other Ulster fans staying down?

roddersm wrote:Yes Mrs P one of the Leinsters fans posted it earlier somewhere. Can't remember which thread.

Twas I. I take full responsibility. I heard it on one of the newstalk podcasts. Either Gerry Thornley or Liam Toland mentioned it if I remember correctly.

Croyman wrote:
yep - you don't have to be a genius mathematician

If you now say that Ulster players were to get a decent look in going forwards then 3 provinces x 15 starting less NIQs = 30+ (well better than the x 2.5 going on now) = Irish squad - so where are all the back-up players - main provinces bench = almost 15 plus Connacht ?? = almost 30

All pretty tight I would say because where are the rest ? B&I Cup ??

I know it does me in - Exeter (my son is at the Uni there) has quite a large Irish base - their captain was voted into the Aviva Team of the Year last - Tom Hayes - 2nd Row - brother of the Bull - articulate - a leader (got initiative) - . . . . .. . . you've got to think he's upset someone - or - is he just like Coughlan ?

also got Andress (is he injured or just not picked) Steenson (OK got limitations and a bench man now) but Whitten is off there and I think he has talent - and they had a bunch of Ireland U-20s as well

Whatever - the playing base could do with being a bit larger

Croyman, Tommy Hayes is a wonderful player for Exe, as you say, a great leader with a huge engine on him - but he is small for a second row these days and getting on a bit. Andress has been hit and miss since he returned to Sandy Park, he's certainly behind Craig Mitchell and Hoani Tui in the pecking order, and I believe he's moving on to try and get more regular game time at Wuss. Steeno has done well this year, it can't be easy to be the back-up man, but Mieres has been in sparkling form. We'll have Whitten next year too, and in the past we've had Lewis Stevenson, Dan Tuohy, Eoin Grace and Ruardhi Murphy too

leinsterbaby wrote:

roddersm wrote:Yes Mrs P one of the Leinsters fans posted it earlier somewhere. Can't remember which thread.

Twas I. I take full responsibility. I heard it on one of the newstalk podcasts. Either Gerry Thornley or Liam Toland mentioned it if I remember correctly.

Yeah not blaming you lb, just saying it is a bizarre rumour to be going around and I doubt it has any foundation in reality.

I mean why the flip would the SA players want to replace BM with a Kiwi coach?

To even suggest that the SA players have some sort of extra clout and power to get BM replaced is pretty sinister to be honest. Seems like just another cheap jibe at Ulsters SA contingent.

rodders, it wouldn't be entirely surprising for a decent chunk of the core of Ulster (Mueller, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Tereblanche) to have a strong voice in the club, particularly when two of those are talked about for coaching roles? Hopefully not "just another cheap jibe"

Muller already is forwards coach and will likely be replaced under the new regime.

Terblanche and Pedre are offski at the end of the season anyways, so if the SA bloc are planning a hostile takeover of Ulster branch its obviously not going to plan.

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story?

Asbo,

You may have seen the game on Sunday, and the game at Ravenhill against the Tigers, and away to ASM.

Did that look like a team containing a chunk of players wanting rid of their head coach? Anyone who has had any dealings with either Davy Humphries or Shane Logan will tell you they are not the sort of men to be pushed into decisions like this by anyone.

Do you remember the fun we had when Logan took over and gave his "World Domination" speech?

You need look no further than that for the impetus behind the change of head coach.

Rodders

Yeah I don't know anything about it really and I did pose it as a question rather than claim there was some SA player vendetta as fact.

Though I presume at this stage the SA players do have quite a bit of influence over them team.

Also they do seem quite settled and at home in Ulster. Does this have anything to do with religious similarities/shared ethics with the native players. Sorry I realise that sport should not be about religion or politics but I'm just curious.

Leinsterbaby I would suggest that Pienaar and co have as much influence over the coaching set up at Ulster as Nacewa or Brad thorn do at Leinster.... i.e. no more than anyone else.

Muller is obviously club captain and forwards coach and would have any influence and responsibility that comes with that.

David Humphreys and Logan call the shots is my understanding.

There does seem to be a shared Christian culture between some of the SA and local players which has helped them fit in. There's a few articles about that around. Don't really have much to say myself on that though.

roddersm wrote:Muller already is forwards coach and will likely be replaced under the new regime.

Terblanche and Pedre are offski at the end of the season anyways, so if the SA bloc are planning a hostile takeover of Ulster branch its obviously not going to plan.

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story?

rodders, not suggesting that there's ANY truth in the story whatsoever, but simply that it would not be surprising to me that players of that calibre have more influence than other - nothing more than that

You think Pienaar and Muller would have more influence than and are a higher calibre of player than Rory Best and Stephen Ferris?

roddersm wrote:You think Pienaar and Muller would have more influence than and are a higher calibre of player than Rory Best and Stephen Ferris?

Nope, not what I said

I'd suggest that IF the SA contingent wanted rid of the coach (I don't believe it), and yet the team have played well enough to be in with a real chance now of winning the HC...I'd say the SA contingent would have shot itself in the foot.

If McLaughlin brings them to a final and they win it - it'll have proven them wrong. If they then say they weren't listening to him and were pretty much doing their own thing, it'll have proven that they don't really need a head coach at all!

Now there's an idea that might catch on in these times of belt-tightening......

I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Rava wrote:I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Oh jeebus, he's not giving MrsP her own box now, is he?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Oh jeebus, he's not giving MrsP her own office now, is he?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:You think Pienaar and Muller would have more influence than and are a higher calibre of player than Rory Best and Stephen Ferris?

Nope, not what I said

No but the point was specifically about the SA players influencing the coaching set up.

I would suggest that if any players had the power to influence the coaching set up at Ulster they would be Best, Ferris and perhaps even the returning Bowe.

I don't believe that BMs removal as coach is down to the players and find it a tad strange that it's been attributed, by some, to a few SA players.

Everyone loves a good conspiracy story I suppose.

Rava wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Oh jeebus, he's not giving MrsP her own office now, is he?!

Won't JellyDonuts go out of business then?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Oh jeebus, he's not giving MrsP her own office now, is he?!

Won't JellyDonuts go out of business then?!

Maybe I should open a wee franchise?

MrP was there yesterday actually.

MrsP wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Rava wrote:I would say the senior players such as Best, Muller and perhaps Pienaar would be very close to the coaching set-up and would be consulted in team affairs. I would be very confident they wouldn't be anywhere near the discussions at Humphreys/Logan level.
Humphreys is very much his own man as his demands on the design of facilities within the new stands will show.

Oh jeebus, he's not giving MrsP her own office now, is he?!

Won't JellyDonuts go out of business then?!

Maybe I should open a wee franchise?

MrP was there yesterday actually.

OK, now I'm really jealous!!

I think muller is someone who would hold the respect of everyone at the club and it wouldn't surprise me to hear humph snr listens to him. That being said it is a bit of a stretch to suggest he has any more influence than McLaughlin as the two seem very close. Similarly terblanche. You dont hire these guys to ignore them. They are far more experienced in playing terms than anyone within ulster rugby so it makes sense to listen to them.

Standulstermen wrote:I think muller is someone who would hold the respect of everyone at the club and it wouldn't surprise me to hear humph snr listens to him. That being said it is a bit of a stretch to suggest he has any more influence than McLaughlin as the two seem very close. Similarly terblanche. You dont hire these guys to ignore them. They are far more experienced in playing terms than anyone within ulster rugby so it makes sense to listen to them.

Agreed, Stand, altho obviously the senior, highly experienced IQ players like Best and Ferris too (as rodders has pointed out in great detail)

As I said before... Schmidt obviously had the blessing from on high at Leinster but it was Cullen and especially a young guy named Sexton that practically signed him on. Schmidt himself said he was iffy until he had a meeting with Sexton.

So in that sense, Sexton certainly didn't dictate coaching personel to his Province but his words to Schmidt hinted that there was player involvement in the shortlist that was probably doing the rounds, and his words too (to the prospective coach) were still intrumental in getting the coach He wanted.

Brilliant, Fly

Well yes but best and ferris haven't played in an RWC final and despite being 29 and 26 respectively they have a lot further to go before they can say they are as experienced as the two saffers. Muller may not have won as many caps but you can bet your bollix to a barn dance from any other country he would be nearing a century fitness permitting. Is terblanche not the record try scorer for the boks? I think of the current Irish crop only bod and POC are in that bracket.

Best is a good captain. I not sure he is the natural leader that muller is.

Standulstermen wrote:Well yes but best and ferris haven't played in an RWC final and despite being 29 and 26 respectively they have a lot further to go before they can say they are as experienced as the two saffers. Muller may not have won as many caps but you can bet your bollix to a barn dance from any other country he would be nearing a century fitness permitting. Is terblanche not the record try scorer for the boks? I think of the current Irish crop only bod and POC are in that bracket.

Best is a good captain. I not sure he is the natural leader that muller is.

He did alright against Scotland in this year's 6Ns, the chunt!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Well yes but best and ferris haven't played in an RWC final and despite being 29 and 26 respectively they have a lot further to go before they can say they are as experienced as the two saffers. Muller may not have won as many caps but you can bet your bollix to a barn dance from any other country he would be nearing a century fitness permitting. Is terblanche not the record try scorer for the boks? I think of the current Irish crop only bod and POC are in that bracket.

Best is a good captain. I not sure he is the natural leader that muller is.

He did alright against Scotland in this year's 6Ns, the chunt!

Very true that

Standulstermen wrote:Well yes but best and ferris haven't played in an RWC final and despite being 29 and 26 respectively they have a lot further to go before they can say they are as experienced as the two saffers. Muller may not have won as many caps but you can bet your bollix to a barn dance from any other country he would be nearing a century fitness permitting. Is terblanche not the record try scorer for the boks? I think of the current Irish crop only bod and POC are in that bracket.

Best is a good captain. I not sure he is the natural leader that muller is.

I'd flip that on its head and say that Stephen Ferris is one of the best players in the world in his position. Would any of the foreign signings be in that bracket? Pienaar and Afoa maybe.

Muller,as good as he is, wouldn't have earned caps for Ireland ahead of O'Connell. Rory Best is Irelands most capped hooker.

The overseas signings are all quality but lets not put them on a pedestal above some of our other senior players.

roddersm wrote:
The overseas signings are all quality but lets not put them on a pedestal above some of our other senior players.

Good one, Rodders.

I had to question a fellow Leinster man a day or so ago who said Clermont were filled with 'star-studded' players. I asked just what some Irish players (namely quite a few HC winning Leinster players) have to do to be regarded as kinda in the 'star-studded' catagory themselves.

We tend to quickly talk down our home-growns if they have a bad game or games but forgive and forget the ordinaryness of foreign stars who can and do go through the same ruts.

Muller would only be second to O'Connell and Matfield as a lineout specialist and according to Andy Goode and other lads has the same authority and natural leadership skills as Martin Johnson in his pomp.

He's incredibly unlucky to have been around at the same time as Matfield. He may not be our best player, but he's damn sure the man that inspires and leads this team. Without him, we lose more than any other player.

I don't think any of the senior players have anything to do with McLaughlins move to the Academy. But they are the ones leading this team, they are the reason for our increased mental strength and resilience in the Heineken Cup and I think they are the ones getting the credit for it behind the scenes- not McLaughlin.

And that may well be the reason we have a new head coach next season.

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

roddersm wrote:Yes Mrs P one of the Leinsters fans posted it earlier somewhere. Can't remember which thread.

Twas I. I take full responsibility. I heard it on one of the newstalk podcasts. Either Gerry Thornley or Liam Toland mentioned it if I remember correctly.

Yeah not blaming you lb, just saying it is a bizarre rumour to be going around and I doubt it has any foundation in reality.

I mean why the flip would the SA players want to replace BM with a Kiwi coach?

To even suggest that the SA players have some sort of extra clout and power to get BM replaced is pretty sinister to be honest. Seems like just another cheap jibe at Ulsters SA contingent.

That's right Rodders, protect OUR SA investments.

SecretFly wrote:

roddersm wrote:
The overseas signings are all quality but lets not put them on a pedestal above some of our other senior players.

Good one, Rodders.

I had to question a fellow Leinster man a day or so ago who said Clermont were filled with 'star-studded' players. I asked just what some Irish players (namely quite a few HC winning Leinster players) have to do to be regarded as kinda in the 'star-studded' catagory themselves.

We tend to quickly talk down our home-growns if they have a bad game or games but forgive and forget the ordinaryness of foreign stars who can and do go through the same ruts.

I wonder if Rodders should note that in the light of a discussion that went on elsewhere