Connacht v Ulster. Sat 14th April, Sportsground (kick off 5.15pm)

First topic message reminder :

Ulster Team to play Connacht, Sat 14th April, Sportsground (kick off 5.15pm):

(15-9): S Terblanche; I Whitten, N Spence, P Jackson, A D'Arcy; I Humphreys, P Marshall;
(1-8): P McAllister,N Brady (capt), T Court, L Stevenson, N McComb, M McComish, W Faloon, R Diack;
Replacements (16-23): A Kyriacou, C Black, A Macklin, I Henderson, A Birch, R Pienaar, C Gilroy, M Allen

Unavailable due to injury:
Jared Payne (Achilles), Chris Cochrane (foot), Tim Barker (back), Simon Danielli (hamstring)

A great chance for some of the fringe players to put their hands up for possible squad places in the HC Semi Final.

Connacht XV to face Ulster

15 Gavin Duffy (C)
14 Tiernan O’Halloran
13 Kyle Tonetti
12 Henry Fa’afili
11 Fetu’u Vainikolo
10 Miah Nikora
09 Frank Murphy

01 Brett Wilkinson
02 Ethienne Reynecke
03 Ronan Loughney
04 Michael Swift
05 Mike McCarthy
06 John Muldoon
07 Ray Ofisa
08 George Naoupu

Replacements
16 Adrian Flavin
17 Denis Buckley
18 Rodney Ah You
19 Mick Kearney
20 Johnny O’Connor
21 Paul O’Donohoe
22 Matthew Jarvis
23 Eoin Griffin

No Niall O'Connor or Mark McCrea.

Come on lads, get a grip! Right on 3......

Stand up for the Ulstermen...Stand up for the Ulstermen

Is Ulstermen not one word?



This has vexed me for some time now.

MrsP wrote:Is Ulstermen not one word?



This has vexed me for some time now.

Yes it is. You need be vexed no longer - go in peace.

Then it should be SUFTU, not SUFTUM?

My new Tee shirt is grammatically incorrect!

Ah jeebus am I going to have to change it again Mrs P?!

No Rodders.

It's fine now!

Now I just have to find a way to remove the offending final "M" from my tee shirt!

Sorry Mr P, back row mainly, can do a job a scrum half though!

Rory, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest here, I've played rugby my whole life, I know what the game does to the body, but of course I wasn't comparing myself to 'the pro's' (I didnt miss a league game all year for example!) My point was these guys haven't played so much rugby that they shouldn't be able to cope with a run of games at the business end of the season.

They get paid to go to the gym, spend their days working on my fitness and conditioning, have access to expert physio and sports therapy day in day out. These guys live and are paid to play rugby, tonight 12 of our best players, who train and are paid to play games like tonight's to bring Ulster success didn't play, we quit on the league and I'm angry about that.

If the coaches hold their hands up and say,

'we thought this team could do the job, we were wrong'

I can deal with that, but if they said, like so many on here are saying,

'sorry, didnt think our boys could handle a few games on the trott even though we had a chance of the playoffs so we are happy to lose to Connacht',

then I'm a little pevved to have spent my money supporting the club throughout the league season.

You're not the only person who spends their money following the team you know.

logie28 wrote:Sorry Mr P, back row mainly, can do a job a scrum half though!

logie is Bergamasco!!!!!

I like that Mrs P! But to be fair his pass is a lot sharper than mine....

logie28 wrote:we quit on the league and I'm angry about that.

Logie back up the truck pal!

We did not quit on the league. We are in 5th place, 1 point behind Glasgow with two games to go. We lost a tough away game to Connacht, which sucks but hey ho shoite happens man.

In terms of the team selection. We've just beaten Munster at Thomond park 6 days ago with one of the most brutal and heroic defensive displays you are likely to see. Next week we have the best team in Europe at Ravenhill followed by the biggest game we've played since the HEC final in 1999, followed by Munster again and god willing a HEC final.

You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think we can send out the first team every week between now and the end of the season.

Remember we very nearly lost Ferris for the HEC QF?

I would have liked a stronger bench today and maybe we'd have won but hey ho you never know. We need to have everyone firing on all cylindars next week and more importantly the week after. If that means giving some guys the week off and losing today well then so be it.

I'm disappointed about today but you need a bit of perspective here sir .

Paul Marshall is rumoured to have broken his arm tonight. I'm not a wrap 'em in cotton wool advocate- players have to play- but you can sabotage yourself if you overplay them.

Are we In Crisis again, then?

Notch, is this a reliable source about Paul Marshall?

I know that the HC is the 'big one', but in fairness, its 5 oppositions to get to the final, and some will have an easier route than others. The Rabo is a better indicator of how good a clubs squad is.

I understand that players need rest. But it was deemed ok for Court / Humph / Pienaar. Why not have 2/3 more on the bench to give a boost.

Its not that big a sacrifice really is it? And if, IF (and i hope it wont happen) we loe to Edinburgh, I, the team and many supporters will be annoyed we didnt give this game a bit more of a fight in terms of selection.

In fairness a HC SF is a good indicator of our 1st XV ability, 5th in the Rabo is a generous indicator of the standard of our squad.

Context is everything lads and some of you are missing that.

3 years ago or so this would have been a do or die match. Be thankful that despite losing it we are miles above connacht in the league and have a very winnable HEC semi final to look forward to.

You cant flog these guys. Kidney did that to guys in the 6N and look how that turned out. Court was playing because we needed to look at how he would go at TH (no other reason).

Humph was playing because he does bugger all tackling anyway and Pienaar only came on because of Marshalls injury. Terblanhce can coast through a game and i dare say had that been the semi final he would have made that tackle on duffy for his try.

After all the emotion of Thomond park (and by god was it emotional) to ask guys to get over the physical and mental tiredness in 6 days (to then do it again 6 days later) is just too much. I suspect Ulster would rather beat Leinster in their last home game as well but after thomond it was always going to be about the SF.

Pienaar stayed on for 80 against Munster , so losing Marshall would not be as bad as you would first think, still a blow if he has broken his arm again though.

Standulstermen wrote:Context is everything lads and some of you are missing that.

3 years ago or so this would have been a do or die match. Be thankful that despite losing it we are miles above connacht in the league and have a very winnable HEC semi final to look forward to.

You cant flog these guys. Kidney did that to guys in the 6N and look how that turned out. Court was playing because we needed to look at how he would go at TH (no other reason).

Humph was playing because he does bugger all tackling anyway and Pienaar only came on because of Marshalls injury. Terblanhce can coast through a game and i dare say had that been the semi final he would have made that tackle on duffy for his try.

After all the emotion of Thomond park (and by god was it emotional) to ask guys to get over the physical and mental tiredness in 6 days (to then do it again 6 days later) is just too much. I suspect Ulster would rather beat Leinster in their last home game as well but after thomond it was always going to be about the SF.

Good Post SU.

My thoughts exactly on Terblanche at the time. In fact I don't think Pienaar would have missed his tackle either if the semi wasn't looming in two weeks time - he may even have been under instruction from McL to avoid risk.
So two missed tackles by two guys retained from last Sunday there could be an argument that no-one from that win should have been in this side. The game next week is likely to be one step removed from tag rugby!

Have to say Aukster the more i see Terblanhce the more i like him. That miss aside he was imperious. His kicking from hand into the wind was sublime. You get the sense that he just has such a depth of knowledge that no one on the pitch can come close too.

Yes he makes great decisions but more importantly he can execute them. I hope Payne has watched him closely as he has a high standard to emulate.

Does anyone think Spence could ultimately end up on the wing? Some of his best runs were on the wing, where he got on the outside of his man and used his powerful hand off. I would like to see him get more game time next season at wing, if possible.

Spence is best used further away from the ruck i agree. He may see some time there next season yes but he still is our backup 13 depending on where Farrell ends up.

He is physically dominant over most youngsters you see but ifhe is used tight in then he is nullified.

Short answer is ...i wouldnt mind Rory

Spence tends to run straight into contact, rather than try and run through the gaps or exploit any space when he is playing in midfield, something that bugs me about him. He is clearly a very strong runner, but he needs to stop running straight into contact. On the wing he has more chances to get on the outside. Either way, this is one weakness he needs to correct IMO. He did have a very good game yesterday though.

clivemcl wrote:Notch, is this a reliable source about Paul Marshall?

Not regarding the broken arm, but he IS injured. Here are the facts about his injury; he won't know how bad it is until he has a scan tomorrow. The probable fact that it's the same arm he broke as a schoolboy. The potential is that he is out of next week (very high chance) and the unknown is how long he'll be out after that. He is now a doubt for the Aviva.

I have a sneaking suspicion it was his other arm he broke as a schoolboy but I could very well be totally wrong.

It's just that he always plays with some strapping on his right arm?

I really hope he gets back to playing quickly!

I read somewhere he will 100% miss next weekend, but I have no idea how long he will be out for.

God there are a couple of people talking drivel on this thread.
The game against Munster tokk a lot out of EVERYBODY on the pitch.

We have our biggest game in 14 years next week. We are going to do EVERYTHING we can to maximize our chances in that game.

If that means playing a weakend team against Connacht so be it.

As I say there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of a rest week for players after such a match. It is all about being 100% against Edinburgh - being 95% may not be good enough.


As for comparing playing club rugby on a Sunday with top flight professional rugby - what a joke

Was very impressed with Gavin Duffy, McCarthy and O'Hallaran fo Connacht in this game.

Faloon is a great addition for them and I think they will be a seriously good side next season.

I do think signing Dan Parks was a major faux pas though .

To be honest I though Faloon was poor - possibly Ulsters weakest backrower and that in a weak backrow.

I think both he and Diack aren't good enough to be honest Geoff. We badly need another backrower.

In fairness to Faloon, I think its hard to shine at 7 if your pack are struggling. Generally we were dominated at the breakdown.

Diack was very poor again. The guy looks like he doesn't want to be there at all.

Wrong thread.. two very similar Ulster threads atm

Have to ask though.. is Birch going to challenge Henry for a starting place at 7 next year, with Henry possibly moving back to 8?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Have to ask though.. is Birch going to challenge Henry for a starting place at 7 next year, with Henry possibly moving back to 8?

No reason why that couldn't happen but it will take time and will obviously be dependent on whether we are able to sign a quality replacement for Wannenberg/Faloon.

Well I am pretty interested to see how good Birch is, because he looks promising.

Thanks for reading my posts carefully before calling my opinions 'drivel' and 'a joke' Geoff. What I clearly said was....

'but of course I wasn't comparing myself to 'the pro's' (I didnt miss a league game all year for example!)'

So, NOT comparing and lighthearted tone, but thanks for your indignation.

My point was, and will continue to be, I believe we are good enough to compete in both the league and Cup. Of course we want the team to be right for Edinburgh, but I feel our players are capable of playing rugby over a series of weeks. They train to do so, they are paid to do so, and at this stage of the season, when competitions are won and lost, they should be doing so.

Maybe we'll beat Leinster and Munster and get into the playoffs anyway and my disappointment will seem an over reaction. However right now I cant see that, I think our league season is over because we played a weak team and lost to Connacht and that seems a shame to me after the efforts all season.

I respect most of you feel differently. You feel the sacrifice in selection in Galway was required to win the Heineken, that the league challenge had to be set aside for the greater good, and that is fair enough. I've followed these boards for a while, I know you are all good, knowledgeable people. I just feel different, and I don't believe my opinion is drivel or laughable.

Logie, you'd be right... I think both competitions should be in the sights of any ambitious side - the League and the HC. But pragmatisim is perhaps exactly why Ulster are still fighting for HC. A priority was set, the players and coaches and Humphreys wants the 'real' deal first and foremost; and if compromises are deemed necessary then obviously league position will be the one sacrificed this year.

A step in the right direction is choosing when to use your heavy guns and when to give them a break. No point in killing a growing internal confidence by fighting it out really hard for the league to leave resources for HC perhaps scarce (injuries, fatigue etc).

There will come a time when Ulster have the ammo to fight equally hard for both competitions, or at least as competitively as Leinster and Munster, but I think this year is a little early to be fully committing to the idea of both. Consolidate first and then perhaps better manage next year to attack the opportunities both competitions offer.

Even Munster were I feel concentrating resources and intent on HC this season rather than League. It didn't work out for them so it's always a gamble - but if the gamble pays off then the boost in self-belief and confidence slides into both competitions the following season.

Leinster too have to prioritse games and it's only because they happen to have a better rotation policy than most, and perhaps a better squad, that their risk taking and gambles have paid off so far.

Ulster aren't out yet anyway...it still could be a double year. Nobody knows the future.

Logie - have you considered that Ulster put out the side most likely to win in Galway?

Edinburgh put out 2/3 of their starting HEC XV and it was obvious they were in injury avoidance mode. The manner of the heavy defeat just demoralised the players and they still risked injury.

Terblanche missed a tackle he wouldn't have missed last Sunday, Pienaar missed a tackle he wouldn't have missed last Sunday. Court was outshone by Macklin when he came on. Humphreys was awful. So in short the players involved in the HEC quarter were either knackered or disinterested or both. I don't blame any of them, but I do think it is an indication that had more of them played against Connacht the result wouldn't have been any better, and it would have jepoardised Ulster's chances in the HEC.

It matters not a jot but has anyone seen the photos from the match on the UR website?

Have a wee juke at picture number 6 and tell me if that is a trip?

As I say, no matter now. Just wondered what everyone else thinks!

I guess we will never know if this was the right selection call. But I am inclined to side with Logie. The players manage this kind of intensity in terms of the number of big matches in a two month period in the 6N and WC. Theelite should be able to do 4/5 big games in a row at this level IMO, or at the very least play some part coming off the bench.

But like we say, we will never know. All I know is this, lose our semi and our season will be all but over except for (possibly) a game against munster to keep our league hopes alive. Hands up who think that will go well?

Ultimately (and i know i will seem pessimistic) but coming 5th and losing to Edinburgh in a SF would be a massive kick in the balls. I would have just liked to have kept our opportunities in the Rabo alive as a safety net, thats all.

clivemcl wrote:I guess we will never know if this was the right selection call. But I am inclined to side with Logie. The players manage this kind of intensity in terms of the number of big matches in a two month period in the 6N and WC. Theelite should be able to do 4/5 big games in a row at this level IMO, or at the very least play some part coming off the bench.

No they don't clive. The 6N is split into blocks with two rest weekends and the reason you take a 30 man squad to the RWC is so you can rotate as required.

Squad management is a big part of being a successful side and whilst I don't think we have got it right in places throughout the season, I absolutely do not agree that we could have sent our 1st team down to Galway after the Munster game, with the run of games we have coming up.

logie28 wrote: Thanks for reading my posts carefully before calling my opinions 'drivel' and 'a joke' Geoff. What I clearly said was....

'but of course I wasn't comparing myself to 'the pro's' (I didnt miss a league game all year for example!)'

So, NOT comparing and lighthearted tone, but thanks for your indignation.

I do not see any such reference in this post

logie28 wrote:A quick look at the Ulster Squad profiles shows I've played more games of rugby this season than most of those 'rested' today. Im 38 and inbetween games I've had long, often very physical, weeks of hard (honest boss) work rather than been to the gym, physio, etc.

Im sorry, but this is exactly the time of the season when all that fitness, training, conditioning, rest and rotation periods and hours in the gym and treatment room pay off. Professional players MUST have the ability to play 5 weeks in row or they aren't fit for purpose, and my bet is the players would have loved to play. They weren't allowed, and we've paid the price.

And I repeat, like Clive, I know not everyone could play, but we could and should have put out a stronger team than that rather than insult the league and fans by quitting on the league when we've won nothing else as yet..

which what I read. You may have clarified later but the above gives tthe clear impresion you are comparing yourself with pros - hence my comment

I see reference to playing 5 weeks in a row should not be a problem - sorry that is bunk. Yes a player could play week in week out but by the 5th week there will be a drop of in performance.

Till McLaughlin took over Ulster used to play the first XV week in week out and it resulted in the players losing their edge in December/January when the HC groups matches with the consequential year on year failure we experienced.

It doesn't happen in the 6N - there are 2 rest weeks
It doesn't happen in the World Cup - the better players are rested against the weaker teams

The top clubs - Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse regularly rest players to maximize their results.

Ulster currently do not have the cover to do that.
Ulster currently are not strong enough to compete on 2 fronts.

geoff998rugby wrote:I see reference to playing 5 weeks in a row should not be a problem - sorry that is bunk. Yes a player could play week in week out but by the 5th week there will be a drop of in performance.

Till McLaughlin took over Ulster used to play the first XV week in week out and it resulted in the players losing their edge in December/January when the HC groups matches with the consequential year on year failure we experienced.

It doesn't happen in the 6N - there are 2 rest weeks
It doesn't happen in the World Cup - the better players are rested against the weaker teams

The top clubs - Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse regularly rest players to maximize their results.

Ulster currently do not have the cover to do that.
Ulster currently are not strong enough to compete on 2 fronts.

Ok I'm willing to give in and admit I've learned something here. Fair enough. What then do we say about the clubs success? If I were another teams supporter I may read this and say something like ...

The success in the HC shows that the 1st XV are top quality and we got fortunate with a lack of injuries. But then go on to say that the league gives a better indication of the clubs success and quality of the squad. I would say that Ulster in real terms are still only an average 'club' and are only a few injuries away from being a team that wouldn't get out of a Heineken Cup group.

From an entire club POV I'm dissapointed with the league. And as far as squad depth goes, I see no efforts being made to improve that for next year. In fact it looks like it will be even more shallow.

My assessment

We have a top class team - with the exception of 10.
Therefore to use the term 'average' is unfair.
Yes a few injuries would mean we would not get out of our HC group but that is true of everyone bar Leinster so not that exceptional.

We however do not have adequate cover in a number of positions e.g. only 1 quality cover lock, woefully short in the back row.
We have a number of promising youngsters coming through but it will take time for them to be ready - we will see a lot more of the kids next year.
I dont think it is a question of failing to improve the depth of the squad it is more a question of finances. You can only pay out what you have.

The club Logan/Humphreys took over was a mess both on and off the field - it going to take time to develop into a side able to compete week in week out.
Also we will finish somewhere between 3rd and 6th. Whilst not making the playoffs would be disappointing that is hardly a terrible season.
Only 1 home defeat in all competions and hopefully a HC final - not too shabby.

Supporters need to show some patience.

Clive in real terms Ulster are probably the 4/5th strongest team in the Rabo, certainly not higher than 3rd. Last year we exceeded expectations and finished 4th, this year we may finish 5th (or maybe not).

Considering the fact that we've beaten Clermont, Leicester and Munster and reached our first HEC SF in 13 seasons and had a very poor start to the season I would say our league position is a minor disappointment at most.

This has been a phenomenally successful season so far for Ulster rugby, already better than 1999 imo considering some of the teams we've beaten and the fact that we are competing on two fronts.

I think you've lost a bit of perspective here over one narrow league defeat against a very good Connacht side.

We've made massive strides forward this season and if you'd have offered me this position in November I'd have bitten your hand off.

Hey I'm only pointing out that our squad is far from the finished article despite our 1st XV being fairly well polished.

Some people seem to be suggesting that focusing on the HC is simply just the way things are. I'm saying yes, ok , I agree this year. But our long term ambition should be that one doesnt suffer over the other.

And considering the likes of whitten and faloon leaving without replacement, it could well be that this time next year we may not have progressed at all in terms of the ability to challenge on both fronts.

Ok, maybe money is the factor, and maybe I assume we get cash for doing well in Europe? But will that come too late to do anything about squad additions for next season?

clivemcl wrote:Hey I'm only pointing out that our squad is far from the finished article despite our 1st XV being fairly well polished.

Some people seem to be suggesting that focusing on the HC is simply just the way things are. I'm saying yes, ok , I agree this year. But our long term ambition should be that one doesnt suffer over the other.

Long term being the key words there Clive. In my opinion we are already well ahead of expectation considering were we were 3 seasons ago.

As Humph pointed out in a recent interview Leinster and Munster are well ahead behind the scenes. Mclaugh moving to the academy will hopefully help produce players and thats were the focus needs to be, not just signing players IQ or otherwise.

I'm disappointed about Whitten, Pedre and Faloon going but we have Bowe and Wilson coming in plus the new coaching team.

Everything is not perfect but there are far more positives than negatives right now.

Ulster are NOT in crisis!