Aviva Premiership Attendances

I last looked at this after round 10 and will do a proper comparison at the end of the season, but discussions on Wasps problems made me consider revisiting this now. All numbers are taken from the Aviva Premiership site - which shows total attendances season to date of just under 1.4m (once the double counting of the Twickenham double header is removed).

Yet again we get confirmation that Sainst and Bath need bigger grounds (are you listening Northampton and Bath councils?)

Spoiler:

They are impressive percentages for Bath and Saints. Leicester and Warriors have also impressive percentage attendance.

35% for sarries is appaling! I would of thought the champions would have a few more supporters than that!

nathan wrote:35% for sarries is appaling! I would of thought the champions would have a few more supporters than that!

They have, its just that they keep forgetting their way to the stadium.

Nathan it's a big ground but it is also a complete hole which is a pain to get to and has very little draw. This is why Sarries are moving. The ground at Watford is the opposite of what they need, they need a smaller capacity because their crowd size is smaller so that an atmosphere can be generated. They need to be closer to London so that they can take advantage of the casual fans that can be bothered to treck to Wembley and they need better transport links to encourage fans from other teams to make the trip. Wasps are in a similar position.

Good numbers for Tigers considering they are televised nearly every week. I suspect the season tickets are what keeps us going, something like 11k sold ahead of next year.

I'd be happy to provide similar figures for the Pro12 if you want?

This article prompted me to go looking for similar Super 15 stats.

Someone made a typo for the Stormers, a crowd of 322,436!

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=366&statType=home_Att

Kiwi I read somwhere a while ago that the Stormers' attandances were slightly higher than the Bulls.

It'd be interesting to see the attendances for AP, PRO 12, HC and S15 comparatively.

And also to see how these compare to stadia capacity as a percentage and to indigenous populations.

I suspect that Pro12 gets a better percentage on the population front compared to the stadia they use. Not sure how S15 compares across its three territories.

The South African attendances lloks rather decent with an average of roughly 32500 per match. Not too shabby, I wonder what the difference is between local derbies and touring teams?

Pot Hale wrote:It'd be interesting to see the attendances for AP, PRO 12, HC and S15 comparatively.

And also to see how these compare to stadia capacity as a percentage and to indigenous populations.

I suspect that Pro12 gets a better percentage on the population front compared to the stadia they use. Not sure how S15 compares across its three territories.

All depends on how wide you draw the population circle I guess.

Slightly disappointed that attendances at Exe don't seem to have pushed on at the same rate as performances on the pitch. I guess that there's a couple of reasons for that, including off-the-field second season syndrome/novelty factor wearing off, general economic conditions, relatively expensive tickets, etc. Hopefully that will improve again next year

In the HC Tigers had just over 61k spectators, so the same as the AP average.

It should be noted however that not only were tigers failing to put points on the board during the RWC, but they were also failing to put bums on seats. The 3 home matches in this period (Exeter, Quins, Saries) saw combined attendances of 53k - almost 3k a match down on the average.

The average for us will be down this year vs 2010/11 (21,011) but not by much as the last match against Bath is already a sell-out, and there is still the chance of a home semi.

Pot Hale wrote:It'd be interesting to see the attendances for AP, PRO 12, HC and S15 comparatively.

And also to see how these compare to stadia capacity as a percentage and to indigenous populations.

That sounds like a lot of work for somebody, woould be intresting though. Guess you suggested Pot cos you didn't want to do it yourself

LondonTiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:It'd be interesting to see the attendances for AP, PRO 12, HC and S15 comparatively.

And also to see how these compare to stadia capacity as a percentage and to indigenous populations.

I suspect that Pro12 gets a better percentage on the population front compared to the stadia they use. Not sure how S15 compares across its three territories.

All depends on how wide you draw the population circle I guess.

Not really. Populations of England, Ireland, Wales, Italy, and Scotland are well documented. As are the nearly empty caverns that some of the teams play in.

But the Tigers are a team for Leicester. Other people around Leicester or the UK may support them but the team isn't 'for' them. Population of Leicester is 772400 (Metro). Average attendance is 20376. So 2.6%.

Leinster's population around 2500000, average attendance is what? 15000? So that's 0.6%

WARNING: All population data from Wikipedia

Population of a city has no bearing on the percentage to show up at a rugby union stadium.

It depends how polarised the communities are.

Cheetahs territory Bloemfontein has a population of 650 000 and Gauteng has a population of 11 million, yet the spectator numbers are similar.

The Tigers don't cover a territory. They are a city club. There are plenty of other clubs in the area. These are feeders or are represented at a higher level by the Tigers. The provinces, regions and S15 teams are all regional sides that cover specific areas. You can't say the same about clubs (English or French)

Comparing attendances across different countries, leagues and cultures is not really relevant, though sometimes comparisons could be made to decide potential. (ie Leicester with a LUZ of 770k pull in 20k spectators. Cardiff with a LUZ of 850k and a much more rugby mad culture should be pulling in more than they do. But we all know that).


Looking purely at the AP it highlighted to me just why Wasps are in trouble. Tigers in 2010/11 had turnover of almost £20m. They spent up to the Elite Player slary cap and had a profit of just under £600k.

Wasps turnover is unknown, but although they get the same TV money and RFU handout as Leicester, with attendances less than 1/3rd of tigers and probably much reduced commercial income they are always going to struggle. Apparently they lost £2m last year and now owe Steve Haynes £6.5m.

Saints and Bath are selling out almost every week - so the only way for them to increase income is to increase ground capacity - something that the councils keep blocking. While Bath have been able to waste their backers money, Saints are not in that position. Last season I reckon they were, when rested, the best XV in England. But the cost of assembling that XV reduced the depth of quality in the sqaud which caused them major problems at the back end of the season. To compete on two fronts they felt they had to play the strongest line-up every week. When it came to the HC final they put on the best 40 minute performance I have ever seen in an HC final (and maybe in any HC game). But there was nothing left in the tank, and in the second half Leinster trumped them with an even better 40 minutes.

A load of waffle I know - but hey ho

If I looked at Wasps as an investor, I would see

• a poor stadium

• in a poor location to draw fans

• with thier main draw, the stars and superstars of the recent past, retired or elswwhere

• the management in near-full crash mode

• the team having a real possibility to enter administratation and Relegation

I would also see:

• a strong academy

• an extremely strong brand with powerful brand awareness outside the UK and within

So why buy in? Hemorrhaging money and talent is not good. What could possibly be in someone's interest to put a ton of dough into an old team on its deathbed? Well, the answer is not so implausable. Someone who turns old brands arround and regognizes good business models from bad. Someone who is a Rugby supporter, potentially part of he wreckage of supporters they left behind when they left west London.

Someone with either great business sense, or someone with terrible business sense.

LondonTiger wrote:I last looked at this after round 10 and will do a proper comparison at the end of the season, but discussions on Wasps problems made me consider revisiting this now. All numbers are taken from the Aviva Premiership site - which shows total attendances season to date of just under 1.4m (once the double counting of the Twickenham double header is removed).

Yet again we get confirmation that Sainst and Bath need bigger grounds (are you listening Northampton and Bath councils?)

Spoiler:

D@mn right. Been holding Bath back for years. If a decision isn't made by beginnning of next season, I can't see our moneyed chairman hanging on for the Rec any longer. Yes it would be nice, blah blah blah, but this isn't the amateur age any more. This is a business that is being held back by bureacrats.

Code:

And also to see how these compare to stadia capacity as a percentage and to indigenous populations.

Not really relevant is it, as in a few places Rugby Union is not the main sport, especially in Northern England where you have the likes of Liverpool, Everton, ManU, Man City, Newcastle and Sunderland. All of those clubs pull in over 50k every time they play at home.

And I'll not bring in the RL problem, some of them would rather sacrifice their children to Cthulhu or give up beer than go and watch a 'kick and clap' game.

HammerofThunor wrote:The Tigers don't cover a territory. They are a city club. There are plenty of other clubs in the area. These are feeders or are represented at a higher level by the Tigers. The provinces, regions and S15 teams are all regional sides that cover specific areas. You can't say the same about clubs (English or French)

a city club? what about us that live in the shire? Shouldn't you be using the Leicestershire population?

No. There are other clubs in Leicestershire. No reason why you wouldn't support them but they're not Leicestershire Tigers [In terms of comparing attendances to populations]

These articles always turn up when the English teams don't do well in Europe,
Yes we know the Aviva teams have quite good attendance you would expect that from a country with 50mill population.

viewtothegym wrote:These articles always turn up when the English teams don't do well in Europe,
Yes we know the Aviva teams have quite good attendance you would expect that from a country with 50mill population.

Oh shut up you fool. Read what I said - this was purely to see the attendances in AP. I do not give a flying fig about attendances any where else just those in AP.

Which are POOR.

Yes I said POOR.

they are not high enough to sustain the salaries the clubs are trying to pay, hence why Wasps are bust and in danger of ceasing to exist. Other clubs will follow if we are not careful.

I don't see the problem the Aviva will hardly be missed.
They only have themselves to blame, it used to be a bountiful breast for players from all over the globe to come and suckle on now it is a dry saggy embarrassment of its former beauty sucked dry by all she embraced.
The top14 will be the same in five years time.

There you go again, sniping and having a dig. Have you ever written a constructive post?

Yes plenty,but when you obviously don't see eye to eye with me you sulk and disregard my comments as venom

So you came on a thread and throw out unfounded accusations about my motives for starting it - with nothing to actually say - and i am the one with the problem?

I should stop it - but you know what, i actually feel sorry for you. So I promise to only be nice to you, consider it my attempt at care in the community.

Good night, and please do sleep well.

Very impressive figures. Really healthy for the Jeff.

Just an observation. Sarries and Quins have average crowds bigger than the capacity of their respective grounds. The Wembley/Twickers games effect obviously. They are a great idea. The PRO12 does it with Munster v Leinster. We need more of em. Think Ulster will be joining soon.

What would be really interesting to see is how the attendance relates to proft (or loss) per supporter.

Gibson, he's got the home ground average (discounting the big games) next to the total average. Quins are at 12000 in a 14800 seater.

We have a series of sell-outs to come, and then a comparison can be made year on year. Not sure about other clubs, but Tigers average attendace will be down slightly.

Strong season ticket sales for next year (12k sold so far) will keep the wolf from the door but it shows that we cannnot just assume that crowds will keep growing.

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, he's got the home ground average (discounting the big games) next to the total average. Quins are at 12000 in a 14800 seater.

But as Gibson says, due to the Big game the Quins overall average is higher than their capacity. Whilst only a small fraction of those people attracted to Twickenham Stadium then return to the Stoop - some do. Ever since they started the concept attendances at the Stoop have been on the rise and support a proper stadium. (Who remembers what the Sttop looked like 20 years ago? Open on 3 sides, old clubhouse and concrete stand down one side). The other benefit is the increased profile that attracts bigger money from sponsors.

Quins are doing much that is right, both on and off the pitch.

They are. Last year their last 6 games were sell outs. Seem to have gone down a little this year (possibly because their later performances have been a bit poorer in general.

There are 7 teams that have a home average of 10000+. I looked at it a couple of seasons ago and there were 6. It's possible that it's because Worcester went down. It'll be interesting to see if Exeter can add another couple of thousand (basically an average sellout)

If you are over 10k you aren't in a bad place. Sale will improve, as will Wasps when they get out of Wycombe. The really disappointing ones for me are Newcasle and Exeter (the latter have ambitions for ground expansion - which seems unnecessary frankly).

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, he's got the home ground average (discounting the big games) next to the total average. Quins are at 12000 in a 14800 seater.

Ah OK Thunor. Missed that column. It was late...
It is really impressive though. Will be even better when Sarries go to their new ground. A proper home.
Would love to see Wasps get the investment to have their own ground and out of financial trouble. Cant stand to see a former European power in this mess.
Lets hope it happens and soon.

Tigers & Quins have a loyal and solid fanbase. Very healthy figures. I can see more expansion there in the future. Same with Bath. Their Sugar-Daddy means business and wont stop until that ground is redeveloped into a... well... a fixed ground and not a temporary one. I watched it being disassembled last May.

And I was not knocking the Wembley/Twickers figures either. Great idea to give access to even more prospective fans. The Sarries v Quins game at Wembley was excellent. A resounding success.
I am all for them and would like to see it happen more in the PRO12. Problem is - very few sides can step up to the plate and fill a large ground.

The Edinburgh HC QF crowd, shows they are out there. 40,000 of em. Cardiff Blues v Ospreys tonight, should see 15,000.
Leinster (18,500 at the RDS & 50,000 at Lansdowne) , Munster (26,000) and now Ulster (10,000) are also growing in touring numbers and are stabilising their home fanbase. Ulster are building 3 new stands at Ravenhill and will be up to 20,000 in a couple of years.

With the momentum of Edinburgh in the HC and with Warriors looking like they are in the playoffs of the PRO12, hope is building there too.
I worry for the Welsh regions in general though. In contrast to the fortunes of the National side, they are in complete disarray. Badly needs looking at by the WRU.

It would be good if Edinburgh can push on from this next year. Increase the attendances, etc. The welsh regions are in an unusual position. There is potential for them to be really well supported if things come together but it seems to be just out of reach at the moment.

Crowds are very decent for Munster and Leinster and Ulsters' should become more healthy now they're performing again.

Gibson wrote:Cardiff Blues v Ospreys tonight, should see 15,000.

Well close with 8400

HammerofThunor wrote:

Gibson wrote:Cardiff Blues v Ospreys tonight, should see 15,000.

Well close with 8400

Woops. Not good. Not bad, but not good. More O' s fans than Blues fans, so I was told by an attendee. It may be due to the fact that Blues are in freefall...

Things certainly seem foul there at the moment. Massive dissatisfaction amongst the fans (even worse than expected level for regional rugby).

Will we see another bail out or will there be a readjustment of regions?

I think it is going to get a lot worse before it improves Thunor. The WRU have reduced their salary-cap for next year. They are still paying off the MS. A mass exodus is in motion, of most of the regions best players to France.

Scarlets have shown the way and are gaining ground by promoting and nurturing indigenous talent. The rest must now follow their lead. They have no choice. It may be the best thing that's happened since the Regions were formed. Long-term I mean.

Ospreys and Blues have learned the hard way, that money alone, cannot buy you rugby love. A quick HC shaag maybe, but not long-term love.

The problem with the Scarlets is as the young players develop they start to be able to command larger salaries abroad. Therefore it WILL cost them more to keep. Will Scarlets be able to maintain the squad when this happens or will they have to start from scratch?

I think a quick fix to stem the flow, would be to introduce the most attractive part of the Irish Solution here.

Tax-free benefits for those who stay loyal. But, as the Welsh tax-system is governed by the English one... (I think?) I cant see that happening without a serious row and simular claims from the Jeff.
Its an option to investigate though. That or go to War with the French. We know they will back down if that happens...

It will become a problem for the Jeff as well, if they dont up their salary cap soon.

At Leinster, we are still trying to nail down Luke Fitz to an IRFU contract. I think he will stay.. but it was hairy. The same will happen with Sexton and Heaslip in 2 years, imo.

We cant stop the French Exodus... But we can fight it's total dominance, if we wake up to it.

Gibson wrote:I think a quick fix to stem the flow, would be to introduce the most attractive part of the Irish Solution here.

Tax-free benefits for those who stay loyal. But, as the Welsh tax-system is governed by the English British (including NI) one... (I think?) I cant see that happening without a serious row and simular claims from the Jeff.
Its an option to investigate though. That or go to War with the French. We know they will back down if that happens...

It will become a problem for the Jeff as well, if they dont up their salary cap soon.

At Leinster, we are still trying to nail down Luke Fitz to an IRFU contract. I think he will stay.. but it was hairy. The same will happen with Sexton and Heaslip in 2 years, imo.

We cant stop the French Exodus... But we can fight it's total dominance, if we wake up to it.

I edited it for you. Welsh/Scottish/NI MPs all vote on the same things as the 'English' ones. English MP don't get to vote on things in the Assembly, etc. Just wanted to point that out

In maintaining best players at home the biggest carrot will always be international honours. The ones that go tend to be those on the outside. Enable clubs to keep their best academy products (extra £300k(?) in the cap next year for ex-academy players should help that) who will want to play for England AND stay with their home club.

Cheers Thunor. Always open to gleaning local knowledge.
In truth, I dont totally know how the Irish tax system works with regard to artistes/players. I believe (for players anyway) they must start and finish their careers in the country, to benefit fully. I.E No tax in that period. And are given a large tax-free pot at the end of it all. Im a self-confessed Clog. 52% here. The Calvinistic basterds.

But yes, the National pull should always be the ultimate carrot for all players.

Thing is, when you look at soccerball in England, half the players could not give a flying sheet about playing for their country, above their super-rich and foreign owned clubs. That, I would hate to see happen in rugby.

It is a delicate balance. A balance, I sincerely hope wont tip in favour of the Corporate Oligarchs.

Im afraid it will in time. Its business.

viewtothegym wrote:I don't see the problem the Aviva will hardly be missed.
They only have themselves to blame, it used to be a bountiful breast for players from all over the globe to come and suckle on now it is a dry saggy embarrassment of its former beauty sucked dry by all she embraced.
The top14 will be the same in five years time.

Curious analogy for a Welshman to use, since 'sucking dry' is exactly what the Welsh Assembly has been doing to Whitehall for years, while 'loyal' Welsh subjects see fit to continue to bite the hand that feeds them.

Seems also doubly odd that someone from a nation where a league match attracts the sort of attendance normally reserved for an out of town cinema, with one Region in free fall and the fate of the others surely in the balance, would choose to denegrate the state of the English league, which has produced European Champions on several occasions, and frankly looks far more likely to do so again in the immediate future than any Welsh Region could hope for.

Gibson, any idea how it works for NI based Ulster players? Do they come under Irish or UK tax system? As in the tax back the players get at retirement (or is this just IRFU payments)? Someone else said something about no VAT on tickets.

Exeter have plans to upgrade to a 20,000 all seater stadium. They should get a few more in as a lot of my friends wives and girlfriends are put off going at the moment by the way the terraces are always packed (my favourite bit!). Ticket prices at SP are very expensive (cheapest standing about £20 odd) and the season ticket is £470 for a terrace. Can only see it going up as the stadium expands, can't decide whether it's a good thing for the club or not. Speculate to accumulate? How have other clubs dealt with expansion and do you guys think it's a risk worth us taking?