Englands back-up 8

thanks to the impressive and welcome form of Ben Morgan, we should see the number 8 shirt sown up for a while barring serious loss of form.

but who should england put in in his stead if he is injured or his form nosedives?

despite having great strength in depth on the flank with croft, robshaw, wood, haskell, clarke, dowson, armitage, fearns, etc i wouldnt say we have a back up 8 that is international quality. Narraway is going to france, and has in my view been a good club player but nothing more, Easter would be a step back, and then we have who?

it is probably most likely and most prudent to include a player on the bench who can cover the flanks as well, and it has been mooted that Robshaw, Haskell, and Fears can cover 8. I do think 8 is a specialist position with skills that need to be practised though, so i would like to see Robshaw get time at 8 on tour, although i would worry his carries although frequent aren't especially heavy duty, and Fears taken along and played solely as an 8 as he has size, power a good work rate and a good pair of hands. Haskell with his size and pace has always had the physical attributes, but he has played 8 before and it hasnt really worked out.

in the future i would like to see the likes billy Vuniploa, the huge young bloke at Wasps, and possibly Alex Gray who has captained the England age groups a lot potentially given time and experience at 8 as they offer raw power with Vunipola on a different planet physically, and Gray seems to read the game superbly, have skills and lineout expertise, and the leadership bonus

Fearns' preferred position is 8 and that is where his future lays, that just hasn't met his recent club demands unfortunately. His ability to cover the whole backrow makes him a great bench option and perfectly placed to ease his way in. He should definitely be taken in the enlarged summer tour squad.

The back up England 8 by the end of next season will be Morgan. Crane returns from injury for next season and if he shows the form he did last season will be 1st choice.

The athletic 8 option would be Guest, but he needs to displace Easter before he can be looked at seriously, which would suggest he's not going to make it anytime soon. He'll be fighting it out with Gray for that role by then, who needs a couple more years to mature.

Haskell does a passable job filling in, but Robshaw is no 8.

Yeah Timhen i think your right...

Morgan has that spot for the moment..

If Crane is back in top form and fit, then he will challenge...i dont think he gets enough credit...and the "Easter mark II " lable is not right...

Easter is actually still playing well...and in an injury crisis would do a job.

GUest is the athletic 8...but as mentioned he NEEDS to be playing 8 for his club, but wont oust Easter at the moment. He should have moved club.

Fearns needs to hit 8 for Bath

Gray is one to watch for the next few years...and Haskell can do a job if required...but defo more a flanker.

PS...on a biased note...keep an eye on young Mark Wilson our back rower/ 8...real quality young player...

1) Morgan
2a), Crane 2b) Fearns

Agree with both timhen and Geordie. Definitely think Fearns should go, very good physical presence.

@Geordie, just wondering, there was that young Falcons lad that you kept going on about- Joe Robinson? How much game time is he getting with you guys? Blindside flanker right?

yeah agree with all said so far really. although i would say that fears perhaps shows more potential than crane in the long run, who has already had a crack at international rugby, albeit for a very short period of time. not saying he shouldn't be involved again, but he will have to keep improving

watched fears against sale last week sometime and he was outstanding but was playing at 7 i think. gametime at 8 is needed, and then i would feel happy to have him as a bench option.

on a different topic, what do you guys think of matt Kvesic? should he be taken to SA if its decided to pursue the quest for an out and out 7? i played against him at school level numerous times and he was outstanding at the breakdown, and with his leadership.l Seen him play at Worcester (local club) a fair bit too and he always seems to stand out for me.

bluestonevedder wrote:Agree with both timhen and Geordie. Definitely think Fearns should go, very good physical presence.

@Geordie, just wondering, there was that young Falcons lad that you kept going on about- Joe Robinson? How much game time is he getting with you guys? Blindside flanker right?

The Joe Robinson thing is a little bit of a tongue cheek joke between Geordie and I. I once referred to Robinson as the Cumbrian Steve Ferris. He is a blindside and he has a lot of potential (In the A league games I have seen), but he hasn't featured for the first team yet and is a long way off at the moment.

mattraven wrote:yeah agree with all said so far really. although i would say that fears perhaps shows more potential than crane in the long run, who has already had a crack at international rugby, albeit for a very short period of time. not saying he shouldn't be involved again, but he will have to keep improving

watched fears against sale last week sometime and he was outstanding but was playing at 7 i think. gametime at 8 is needed, and then i would feel happy to have him as a bench option.

on a different topic, what do you guys think of matt Kvesic? should he be taken to SA if its decided to pursue the quest for an out and out 7? i played against him at school level numerous times and he was outstanding at the breakdown, and with his leadership.l Seen him play at Worcester (local club) a fair bit too and he always seems to stand out for me.

Fearns may have had a seven on his back, but he wasn't really playing in that role. You'd think that he is well positioned to be Bath's long term 8 considering Simon Taylor is almost 33 and that Skirving is a useful squad man. That is of course assuming that Bath don't bring anybody else in.

Cumbrian that is what counts against Fearns I think, Taylor is phenominally average and Skirving seems to be used more at lock these days. There really should be nothing stopping him making that 8 shirt his own.

Crane is impossible to judge at the moment as he is well and truely injured and though it's good to see him doing the old water boy duties at games we won't know where he is until next season (which is a pity as Tigers have definitely missed him). His captaining of the England Saxons whilst clearly not fully fit was impressive and when fit last season made a noticeable difference to Tigers overall forward play. He's someone like Deacon who seems to add something to the pack even if you're not always sure why, the pack is just that bit better when he's there.

In Lancaster's mind it seems that Morgan is the first choice with Dowson second and Waldrom third. Judging by EPS selection. There seems to be little chance of the impressive Kvesic getting a go at 8 as the management have already marked him down as a long term 7 project. Maybe Gibson from LI might get a go in the mid week tour games?

firstly, on Fear's position at Bath, i agree with formerly known as sam in that Fears needs to really press for the 8 shirt. Bath seem to be a bit light on the flanks right now though with Beattie's and Moody's retirement and isnt Louw injured? although i coul be wrong on that one. I would hope Bath will sign another flanker and shift Fears to 8 and play him game in game out.

secondly, in terms of the current selection order with dowson as 2nd choice and Waldrom as 3rd I feel that Dowson is an outstanding club player, but at international level cannot bring the power to either the 6 or 8 shirt and lacks the skill set of top class 7. Waldrom is a good player but his age, and the nationality issue, does count against him for me. I could rather have Crane as my 8 than either of these two, but i think it is more likely we will see a player who can cover all 3 backrow slots at a push. This would mean Wood, Haskell or Fears, and i cant decide which haha

Who is this Fears of which you speak?

Fearns, just a typo I believe

yeah sorry its a typo. must have an extended brain freeze

Cumbrian wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Agree with both timhen and Geordie. Definitely think Fearns should go, very good physical presence.

@Geordie, just wondering, there was that young Falcons lad that you kept going on about- Joe Robinson? How much game time is he getting with you guys? Blindside flanker right?

The Joe Robinson thing is a little bit of a tongue cheek joke between Geordie and I. I once referred to Robinson as the Cumbrian Steve Ferris. He is a blindside and he has a lot of potential (In the A league games I have seen), but he hasn't featured for the first team yet and is a long way off at the moment.

Aaahhh the Cumbrian Ferris....

Yeah Vedder he is a work in progress in the development team...but one to keep an eye out for in a few years.

As i mentioned before though...Mark Wilson is only 20 but been very good this season.

As per usual the Falcons do their bit for England bringing more youngsters through the academy....

For the South Africa tour we are going up against a nation filled with world class, huge, aggressive back row players, we need to go there with a view to win and build momentum......this is not the place to start throwing in youngsters who haven't really stuck there hands up at home.

Morgan deserves his starting spot he has done enough, we then NEED easter's strength and international experience around the squad, perhaps starting in the midweek team. If Haskell is free then he has to be around the squad, he will have played against all of the main SA boys, is a big abbrasive SA type backrow player, has tonnes of experience and can do a good job at 8. No other english number 8 has done enough to go to South Africa...if we were playing pacfic island teams or the argies then maybe blood fearns et al...but no young guys have done enough.

8's For SA
1) Morgan
2) Haskell
3) Easter

The england back row for the near future should consist of Morgan starting at 8, and Haskell starting at 6. The 7 will be the debate for the future, but really those two players will turn the english back row into a dominant force in world rugby.

Haskell won't be going on the tour. It's smack in the middle of the S15 so he's going to have no training time with the squad.

As far as specialist position, the only specialist part of it is controlling the ball in the scrum and running moves off the scrum. I've no idea how Fearns is at controlling the ball but anyone can training in running the moves from the 8 position. In open play his been playing more as a 'traditional' 8 [big carrier], tackling hard and getting involved in the breakdown. I've been very impressed with him (and he's only 22, going on 40 by his looks) and would have him on the tour over Gibson (mainly because I haven't seen Gibson play much)

i agree that SA is possibly the worst place to throw in a young backrower. its only to easy to imagine them getting savaged by burger etc

however of all the new candidates for 8 i would be least worried about fearns. he is 22 so although young has a couple of years premiership experience. more importantly he is 6'3 and 17st 12 apparently so i hope he would be able to handle the intensity. my view is that he would be in the midweek team, so wouldnt be thrown in against the first choice springbok pack. in midweek games he would face an increase in intensity and physicality, but not an insurmountable one IMO

on haskell I agree that he ultimately offers more than croft, robshaw or wood at 6 if all are at the best, but croft has been playing very well, and haskell has been overseas. i think his decision to leave was very ill advised, as he should have focused on nailing down a starting place. and he is now theoretically behind morgan, croft, robshaw, wood, dowson, fearns, and every player involved in the EPS or saxons

HammerofThunor

agree with your assesment of fearns. he does everything an 8 should do in open play, and hopefully he will be able to on the international stage. i feel he would make a good combination with robshaw and croft/wood

I think the job at 8 is a bit more than simply controlling the ball though. The reason it is a specialist position, and why it is good for an 8 to actually get time there rather than play 6 most of the time, is so they can learn how to be in control when on the back foot, like when the scrum is retreating, and in general how to guard the ball from those annoying scrum halves who are right on your tail. The 8 dictates a lot about how a team is going to play their rugby IMO. It is very much a specialist position.

Rory i think that is a massively underated skill! definately something fearns would need to master via regular playing time there for Bath and possibly the Saxons

the player whose ball control at the base seems to me to be phenominal is Jordan Crane. Admitedly the tigers are usually going forward rather than back at a rate of knots but he always seems in control

Me too, I agree entirely. And yes I actually rate Crane as a fantastic specialist 8, who as it has already been said adds a lot to any pack he plays in. The reason is because of his solidity and control as a number 8. He is very good at the position IMO. He will challenge Morgan if he can regather his previous form when he returns from injury. England have a large amount of choice in the back row to be honest, they will be challenging the best back rows in the world soon enough.

Morgan and haskell would give us two tremendous carriers...but what about the ruck and breakdown areas...would they match the best in the world there?

We have a dilema...at 6 of 3 quite different player types...Wood v haskell v Croft.

Now if Morgan is sealed at 8...or Fearns or Crane..then we now have a big time ball carrier...

The question is then do we rely on Crofts lineout or go for the breakdwon savy Wood or the explosive haskell.

Whats has haskells ruck , maul work been like down South?

Kvesic could travel for the midweek team i forsee the back row v SA being exactly the same as the 6N....

6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

The guys going on the tour are almost certainly going to be Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Dowson and Morgan. There will probably be 2 more, one for Clark and another in the 8 extra players. I'd take Fearns and not sure about the other.

Clark? oooohhh interesting...so you would still take him.

I think having both Haskell and Morgan in the same back row would work fine, and could be a potentially devastating partnership. Picking the right 7 though, would be important. Haskell has played all over the back row now, some of his games at 7, so I have a feeling he will have greatly improved at the breakdown. He is also a very good defender and runs good supporting lines. As for Morgan, his work rate will increase as he gains more experience. Don't forget Robshaw in that list btw. The exceptionally hard working type 6.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Clark? oooohhh interesting...so you would still take him.

I meant one in for Clark who is banned (I expect the EPS to be taken with 8 extra players + injury/ban replacements). So I would take Fearns in place of Clark and then another, not sure who. Possibly a fringe player who should go for the experience, Wallace, Gibson, whoever takes your fancy.

Sorry i misread you Hammer...

agreewith croft robshaw wood dowson and morgan. and with fearns for clarke. i would like to see kvesic go for the extre slot and play midweek games at 7.

we have a lot of 6s who can play 7 in robshaw wood haskell fearns even young alex gray but it would be good to start developing a long term option as a genuine 7. we have seen how important bruossow warburton pocock and mccaw are in deciding the outcome of results and its time for us to start building a out and out 7

Regarding the SA tour, based on Lancaster's previous selection, Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Morgan & Dowson are almost certainties.

With Clark out, based on who Lancaster has selected for the Saxons and brought in as cover, one or two of Waldrom, Launchbury, Gibson or Gaskell would seem most likely to complete the squad. Saull is injured.

I think Fearns stands a good chance though. He was injured for the most recent Saxons selection, but Lancaster has selected him for England representative sides before.

I would love for Armitage to get a spot, but the nitty gritty end of the French season makes that more or less impossible.

Wallace would be another option, but Lancaster hasn't seemed interested in him to date.

Armitage

I knew there was a 7 I wanted to take but couldn't think who. I'd take S Armitage as the extra player for the back row.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Aaahhh the Cumbrian Ferris....

Yeah Vedder he is a work in progress in the development team...but one to keep an eye out for in a few years.

As i mentioned before though...Mark Wilson is only 20 but been very good this season.

As per usual the Falcons do their bit for England bringing more youngsters through the academy....

Ah I see, didn't realise it was an ongoing joke thing! If he turns out to be half of the player Ferris is, he could be a real asset.

Concerning England's backrow choice, I don't think Easter should be going at all. He seems to have a detrimental effect on the squad, and is a bit abrasive apparently. Would love to see Kvesic go and get a real run out at 7 up against some Sa boys. Possibly Wallace too. Haskell unfortunately can't feature this summer, but I fully expect him to be in the England mix again when he's back. Would love Armitage to go as the 7 specialist, but as has already been said, the French season may make him unavailable.

We have a dilema...at 6 of 3 quite different player types...Wood v haskell v Croft.

I think Haskell has been playing 7 down in New Zealand with Thompson (sp?) the AB at 6. Wood is also a seven for his club and previously for England. Certainly a Haskell/Croft partnership would work as we saw a Haskell/Wood partnership do well playing right/left in the last 6N. I think Haskell will compete with Robshaw and Wood with Croft on the flanks.

With Clark out, based on who Lancaster has selected for the Saxons and brought in as cover, one or two of Waldrom, Launchbury, Gibson or Gaskell would seem most likely to complete the squad.

Gaskell will be eaten alive down in SA. He struggled with the physicality against the Wolfhounds and Scotland A, the Saffa first team will leave him breathing through a tube. Kvesic was also in the Saxons wasn't he? Waldrom was in the full EPS rather than the Saxons.

I knew there was a 7 I wanted to take but couldn't think who. I'd take S Armitage as the extra player for the back row.

Can't see the RFU agreeing to that as Steffon basically gave them the finger and signed for a French club despite their threats. He's now convinced his two brothers to join him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Gaskell will be eaten alive down in SA. He struggled with the physicality against the Wolfhounds and Scotland A, the Saffa first team will leave him breathing through a tube.

Agree. He needs to add some serious bulk to his frame. I think that's what's hindering his progression into the international ranks.

He's not that different in stature to Croft but where as Croft has confidence in his own physicality and is mature enough to play the game to his strengths, Gaskell doesn't do that. He rushes out the line trying to make the big hit because he's worried about his tackling technique when in the line, he struggles to compete at the breakdown as ends up giving silly penalties away because his technique isn't good when the physical pressure is on and worst of all he nearly always goes for the pass on or not rather than take contact and recycle. His speed, height and hands are all big plusses but minus confidence in his own physicality and the technical skills in the tackle and ruck he will get monstered by the Boks and that will do him no favours.

Croft's slightly heavier, at 2 inches shorter, so is a little more dense. You can see it too- Croft looks very athletic with slight bulk, whereas Gaskell just looks wiry. Over the last few seasons, Croft's grown into the physicality of the game and has started to use his size a little more, which has been great to see. Gaskell needs a kick up the arse like Croft received.

yeah all right on gaskell. he has promise and of course is still very young for second row/blindside so you would expect him to bulk up over the next few years.

unfortunately for him i actually cant see him being able to put on the weight but we will see. i feel his future may lie at 6 if he plays international level. i dont think hes good enough for england to be building their pack round in the next 4 years anyway. you would have to go for a monster backrow. certainly he would have to be partnered with a real bruiser if he played second row. i remember he played alongside callum green for the u20's, whose a big lump, and that worked well, albiet at a different level.

Haskell and Thompson have mostly been L and R flankers haven't they? which is great as that's basically what we are doing with 2xflankees that aren't really traditional 6 or 7

Haskell and Thompson have mostly been L and R flankers haven't they? which is great as that's basically what we are doing with 2xflankees that aren't really traditional 6 or 7

I've only caught bits of a couple of games but they looked like a good flanker partnership with Haskell seeming to do a lot more of the work at the coalface as opposed to his usual tackling and carrying workload which Thompson also enjoys and seems to be doing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

With Clark out, based on who Lancaster has selected for the Saxons and brought in as cover, one or two of Waldrom, Launchbury, Gibson or Gaskell would seem most likely to complete the squad.

Gaskell will be eaten alive down in SA. He struggled with the physicality against the Wolfhounds and Scotland A, the Saffa first team will leave him breathing through a tube. Kvesic was also in the Saxons wasn't he? Waldrom was in the full EPS rather than the Saxons.

I knew there was a 7 I wanted to take but couldn't think who. I'd take S Armitage as the extra player for the back row.

Can't see the RFU agreeing to that as Steffon basically gave them the finger and signed for a French club despite their threats. He's now convinced his two brothers to join him.

I quite agree Gaskell shouldn't go, was just pointing out who Lancaster had selected for the Saxons and therefore might be considering.

Waldrom started off in the Saxons (he played and scored in the game against the Wolfhounds) and was brought into the EPS as cover for Narraway, who in turn had been brought in as cover for Wood.

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/January/News%20Articles/110112_EPS_announcement.aspx


Armitage definitely won't go, Toulon is 3rd in the Top 14 and will be invloved in the playoffs whilst the England squad is in SA.

with the england backrow as a whole, i worry that we have great strength in depth and upcoming youth (croft, robshaw, morgan, haskell, fearns, dowson, clarke, gibson, kvesic, vunipola, gaskell, saull, crane, easter, seymour, launchbury) but we dont actually have truly outstanding players in any position.

For example, none of our flankers would get near the matchday squad of a full strength all black or springbok team. and in their respective positions i would choose ferris, lydiate, dusautoir, o'brien (as a6/8), warburton and gorgodze for sure if they were available.

although the backrow could be a selection headache for years to come because we have so many players around the same level, does anyone have any opinions on if we can actually dominate the best around like hill back and dallaglio did?

It's all about how the back row play as a unit though- also, until they get prolonged international experience there is no way you can predict how they will match up against the best. We will have a better idea after the tour

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's all about how the back row play as a unit though- also, until they get prolonged international experience there is no way you can predict how they will match up against the best. We will have a better idea after the tour

This. The best and most balanced back row in the world may not necessarily have the best individuals. Having a 6, 7 and 8 who gel together properly, will bring out the best in all of them. In fact I would say individually, the players would inevitably improve with time.

yeah that is very true. the best example of this is probably the irish backrow of ferris o'brien and heaslip. all proven to be top class but didnt fufill their potential because they didnt play as unit.

i still feel that even if the back row combinations available were balanced, which doesnt seem likely in the enforced absence of haskell and armitage and the inexperience of kvesic, they would still have to be outstanding individually imo.

looking at back dallaglio hill, superb as a unit but also outstanding in their club rugby. same with mccaw kaino read.

i hope i am proven wrong when we see the next few years progress and that we mould another great combination, but i do think the players involved will have to improve their individual play, as well as learning to play well as a unit. and perhaps they will, we will have to wait and see

Yeah but they were outstanding after playing together so much as a unit. Dayglo wasn't even an 8 when he first came on the scene for England. You can't tell how good those back row players will eventually be at this point. The back row is all about experience (about how to push boundaries, when to get in a ruck, when to guard the sides, where you will need to be to support) not physical attributes so consistency revolving around 6 key back row players is important. Otherwise none of them will grow to be world class

itas true experience is vital but i dont think we have the types of players that can form a world beating combination at the moment. however as you dallaglio wasnt an 8 he got his first cap at 7 i beleive so its practically impossible to predict.

what would your combinations be for the upcoming tour and beyond be then? assuming haskell and armitage become available in the period after their respective club seasons

On the SA tour, I would like to see:

6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Morgan

(with Croft occasionally featuring at 6 from the bench).

Mid week games I think that we should try:

6. Croft
7. Kvesic/Wallace
8. Fearns

Croft in there for the experience, and Kvesic/ Wallace gaining some good experience.

In the not too distant future, I could imagine seeing Haskell/Robshaw back at 6, and hopefully s. Armitage at 7, with Morgan at 8, and either of Wood or Croft on the bench.

are you dropping croft from the tests because you feel wood is better than croft? or because robshaw is better at 6?

i would also support a 6. robshaw 7. wood 8. morgan because i think it has better balance and better breakdown work without croft. this backrow would be useful with a 4. garvey 5. Lawes second row. having said all this it would be unfair to drop croft and parling who have excelled during the 6nations and have been integral to leicesters rise up the table. so i think the backrow actually selected will be 6. croft 7. robshaw 8. morgan

i agree that kvesic should be given the two midweek games in the 7 shirt with fearns at 8. In the future i think that Armitage is unlikely to be selected because of the loss of face for the RFU and because of potential conflict with toulon. although i hope im wrong.

i could the backrow being 6. haskell 7. robshaw 8. morgan with fearns of the bench as he covers 8 as well. if kvesic continues to improve, i would like to see a situation by 2015 where he has the 7 shirt, and the six shirt is fought over by the form player out of haskell/robshaw/wood and 8 out of morgan/fearns although its pretty much impossible to predict events so far off

Personally I'd like to see all the players who have played in the RWC (min 3 games) and 6N (min 3 games) given the SA tour off. Far to many have had insufficient rest periods and with the exception of hooker there really is good back up available. With that criteria I'd leave Croft to recuperate in England, doesn't matter much as we know he's a class act (personally I'd take him over Wood when both available almost everytime).

Take Wood, Robshaw and Morgan as the starting unit with Gibson, Kvesic and Fearns as the mid week team and then Seymour and Dowson as back up options.

I still maintain that Robshaw is a better 6 than 7, and I think Wood has very good scavenging skills, so can be suited to the 7 jersey. Robshaw's a real workhouse and carries and tackles better than Croft, so should be the starting 6 (Croft does other things a lot better). I think Croft is fantastic, and his 6N campaign was excellent, but he could do with a rest, as Sam has said. Either of Croft or Wood in the future will be good impact players I think, and the backrow competition in a few years is going to be brilliant.

Ironically...i havent always been a big fan of Croft in fact one of his biggest critics......but i thought he was quite integral to the way England played this 6 nations...getting to the breakdown first using his pace and just being a menace. Whilst he will ever be a physical monster and dominate a ruck...he was very effective...not to mention his try saving cover tackles and then we look at him offensively.

Im surprised im saying this....but I would stick with him...but this must be balanced by a monster in the second row...which is Matt Garvey.

Add in Morgan and Robshaw with Wood getting some gametime aswell...and we are looking good....

I'd keep the same starting back row as in the 6N. It really grew better and had a good balance by the end.