The future of Welsh Rugby - is it too much to ask for a little harmony?

I'm an eager follower of this forum and I'm constantly amazed at how negative some of the posters are about Welsh rugby (not English WUMs but fellow Welshmen), the regional concept and the over exaggerations as to how close Welsh rugby is to collapse. Personally I believe there is a kind of petty perochialism in this country that has held Welsh rugby back for decades. I've seen posts insisting that we go back to the club structure, or we should scrap teams such as the Blues and Scarlets for no other reason than parochial hatred based on old club allegiances.

I'm glad that there are those in charge of our national sport who are working to rise above this kind of petty short-termist bickering. I'm extremely encouraged by the moves for a Valleys region. I 100% understand that we have 1000's of fans completely disillusioned by the way the regional system was set up. This is a fan base (and future talent pool) that Welsh rugby can't afford to ignore and careful consideration needs to be given as to how every fan in Wales can contribute and, once again feel a part of our national sport. Time will tell whether this region takes off and becomes a success. IMO it is symptomatic of how people with foresight are now looking to address obvious flaws in the regional system - to fix it if you will instead of ripping it apart. Regionalism is not perfect, in many ways it is still in its infancy (when you consider that rugby has been played in this country for approaching 140 years) but even if this business plan is rejected by the WRU, it has provided the catalyst for a vitally important debate regarding how we maximise support in Welsh rugby.

What I see when I look at Welsh rugby at the start of the 21 century is a nation who's rugby is currently going through a painful evolutionary process. Moving slowley but steadily away from the old amaturish systems and committees. It's been difficult but the basis for growth is being laid down in all of our regions. The talk at each of the 4 regions and proposed 5th is not one of short term glory, it's about sustained growth, careful management and ongoing development. Players in the current Welsh side have been sourced from all over Wales and beyond (North, South, East and West). Youngsters are being drilled by coaches of obvious quality (the Blues and the Dragons may not be winning but they are still producing world class players with the likes of Lydiate, Falatau, Roberts and Halfpenny). It proves that we are indeed doing something right. Whilst attendances are fluctuating within our regions, we now have 21st century stadia in place. Granted Cardiff have cocked up their move but, the situation is far from unsalvagable and a load of work needs to be done to win over supporters. But to a greater or lesser degree this has to be done by all of the regions. I believe that over time the branding of the regions will slowly change. It has to because Wales needs to move beyond the superclub concept (which was what regionalism originally was at its inception) if it's to fully unite and mobilize the support of all of Wales.

Now, I'm not one of those people who slate a system without putting forward a suggestion of my own.

The tier that is crying out for change is the one below the regions, the semi professional clubs. I believe the importance of the regions is over exagerated. There needs to be a redress in the balance between club, region and nation and to faciliate this I believe that the whole of the rugby season should be restructured. My idea is this:

Club Level
Clubs play exclusively (no regions however there will be 3 Autumn internations) from September to the end of December in an 8 team premier league with promotion and relegation (14 games home and away). International players for the first 3 months will predominantly be with the national team but can play with their club side as fitness/form requires. The club competition is a curtain raiser and sets the tone for the rest of the season. The competition embraces the traditional club rivalries and the best players within the clubs should be then selected for the regions, through feeder clubs.

Instead of a region being fed by 3 clubs, why not give the regions entire leagues of clubs. So beneath the premier club competion we have 2 divisions - East and West for example (similar to the old football Division 3 North and South). Clubs, regions and nation all collaborate to award contracts, lesser contracts for the regions (supported by the WRU) and the best players who are selected to the Welsh squad are awarded central contracts with a standard 2 year duration.

Additionally, there should be a massive investment in club rugby with new stadia (around 5k capacity) and infrastructure (better transport links). Additionally, a great deal more work should be done with improving media coverage. At the moment, club rugby coverage on TV has a decidedly amaturish feel about it with an obvious lack of media resources allocated to it. With only the clubs playing in the first 3 months, this will help ensure more media cash becomes available for investment into the lowest rungs of Welsh rugby. From January, through to the rest of the season, there should be a continuing competition (possibly an expanded version of the British and Irish Cup). This will allow players who are not selected for their regions to keep playing and developing against those of different nations.

The Regions
From January until April, the regions take over in European competition and the Rabo Direct. As mentioned, the best players from the clubs and international players will be selected for the regions with up and coming stars channelled into the Valleys (Based in Merthyr) and North Wales (Based in Colwyn Bay) development sides (for further information see below). Each region is to have 2 "home stadia - a primary and secondary one". For the Scarlets - Carmarthen and Llanelli. Ospreys - Neath and Swansea. Cardiff - Pontypridd and Cardiff. Newport - Pontypool or Cross Keys and Newport. Like it or not, the main population centres in South Wales are Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport and it is right that each have a strong representation, however, for regionalisation to properly succeed, each region must be forced to throw its arms open to the rest of Wales. That is the price of centralised contracts and WRU support.

(to note: I did think that there might be a case for awarding franchises as in American Football, but, I believe that a structure with more permanence is required if it's to be a truely attractive proposition for investors and season ticket holders.)

In the short term (next 2 - 4 years) - Without wanting to wind up anyone, I'm not sure that the time is right for a 5th region to be created. In the current economic climate, putting in place the necessary finances and infrastructure for a sustainable region might possibly be a step too far. But I do believe that we should start putting in place the foundations for 5th and 6th development regions. In the valleys and in North Wales. I'd envisage that these teams would function as 2 under 23 sides and should be drawing talent from the whole of Wales and beyond. They should function on a reduced budget (£1.5 million) and should be run along the lines set out in the business plan presented by the valleys. Having 2 dedicated development regions can free up some of the resources of the 4 current regions, it is vital that each region pools it's resources in developing the next generation of players and works with the proposed development regions to maximize gametime for our younger players (instead of them warming the bench for large portions of the season. The support for these two regions is evident from the Wales U20 attendances and the loyalty of the Ponty supporters. At the very least it proves that there is a definite basis for further investigation, analysis and debate into the formation of these regions.

In Europe, all teams should be free to compete for a place in both European competitions with the 3 best performing Welsh regions to be entered into the Heineken and the rest into the Amlin. Just because a side is development, if it's good enough to play in the premier competition then it should (imagine if Man Utd circa 1993 were told the couldn't enter the champions league because the average age was too young). All money raised from Europe should be pooled centrally and allocated out equally through out the whole system with emphasis on development. I don't believe we will be able to compete with the checkbook charlies from France but we can invest in the future talent coming through.

National
The 6 Nations should be moved back to May to Mid June and be recognised as the stand alone pinnacle of the season. Players who have proved themselves over the course of the year as consistantly the best should be brought into the side. The whole of the rugby season should be a channel through which the cream of the players should rise to the top and into the national side. Additionally, having a later championship will have 2 notable benefits:
1. the weather will be conducive to running rugby (hopefully - you can't tell with Welsh weather sometimes) and
2. the late championship will be the perfect preparation for World cups and Lions tour. Like them or lothe them, Lions tours fire the imagination of the public and raise money/interest across the rest of the world.

On the conclusion of the 6 nations in mid June (an 8 week championship), our top international players should have 2 months rest with a July and August off season. Summer tours should be held for development purposes with tours to USA, Canada, Eastern Europe, Japan and Fiji (to be held in late July). It's vital to ensure we promote rugby across the rest of the world.

Autumn internationals should be restricted to 3 tests in November and should alternate between the 3 big sides every 3 years - New Zealand year 1, Australia year 2 and South Africa year 3. The other 2 tests should be against a tier 2 nation such as Fiji and an uncapped test against a tier 3 nation (Namibia, Spain etc). As much as I love going to watch the big 3 at the millenium stadium, I think that the current cash cow is overkill and specators are getting too used to seeing the All blacks, Australians et al visit, lets make these matches meaningful again. Additionally, I'd like to see the Southern Hemisphere giants play tour matches once again. Either against the clubs or regions. They used to be massively important cash generators for grass roots Welsh rugby in the past and can be again.

And that's it, I realise that there are a load of holes in my idea and I've been typing for ages but what I'd like to do is encourage a healthy debate. Feel free to make any suggestions, I'm not sure how it could be construed as such but this is most definitely not a WUM and if I have caused anyone offence with anything written, I apologise.

Thinking about it, why can't we, the 606 board, put our heads together and come up with a 20 year plan that we can send off to the WRU. What I've suggested could not happen overnight but it might provide a blue print for the future that the whole of Wales can invest in. If the WRU do have a long term plan for the future of Welsh rugby, I've haven't seen it (and I don't entirely trust this PWC report we keep hearing about) and 10 years into regionalism, the same problems keep raising their heads. With such a wide range of views and frustrations represented on this board, lets put our heads together and set out our own plan. At the very least it would be representative of the whole of Wales and even if it's not accepted by the WRU, we would have at least raised our voice.

Also as a final note, I know that many of the ideas above have already been mentioned in one way or another. I thought I'd go through old posts and try and pull together a coherent premise that reflected the view and requirements of as many people as possible.

All the best everyone and here's to another successful season next year.

Good post, trouble is I can see a flaw in your plan already, putting Pontypridd and Cardiff together will not work, it is not working now, and it will not work in the future either. Crichards, might I ask, are you from the valleys ? I ask this as we in the valleys are very proud of where we come from, and we take pride in our industrial history and we are very parochial about our valley heritage. This is why Ponty and Cardiff will never work, but if you put Pontypridd with Merthyr, two valley towns, then it might work as they both have the same parochial attitude's as each other and can use this as a way to bond with each other if you like. Also, to get all the dates of the Rabbo changed you need to get the three other rugby unions to play ball, which I do not think they will.

crichards, very nice post, one thing I disagree with though is having the Southern hemisphere visit the NH and yet there are no tours down south.

Will never be accepted by the SANZAR nations.

Your idea of each region having two satdia a prmiary and secondary one is very logical, in SA that happens even with tests, we sometimes play test matches outside of the main 4 stadia.

Very good post and nice to see some well-thought out ideas with an appreciation of the difficulties and implications.

I'd very much like to see a reorganisation of the whole NH season, but of course we'd need the buy in of (at least) the ERFU, FRFU, IRFU & SRFU - and probably the others such as Georgia, Russia ect. But it is something that needs to happen for the very least to ensure our players aren't over played (and of course as said above it'll help our Premiership and regions).

Also think we'd need to wait until there's more money in the game before improving the Premiership club stadia, but if we did that it may encourage more people (though it could discourage fans who like the old grounds). At the same time as this it would be good to see a Valleys and a NWales development regions if we have the money. This could (maybe) lead to a much better feeling among Welsh rugby fans and get more people behind regionalism.

Though I was shocked that after you'd written such an excellent post, Lord Dowlais' 1st comment was it will never work coz we're (Ponty) too parochial to ever make a region work that has Cardiff in it"

biltongbek wrote:crichards, very nice post, one thing I disagree with though is having the Southern hemisphere visit the NH and yet there are no tours down south.

Will never be accepted by the SANZAR nations.

Your idea of each region having two satdia a prmiary and secondary one is very logical, in SA that happens even with tests, we sometimes play test matches outside of the main 4 stadia.

But Biltong there are (finally) some NH sides touring the south this summer (and next summer?) and didn't one of the SANZAR play a few club games up here last summer (Harlequins or Saracens?)

So with a bit more give and take it might be possible to have a few tours up here and in the SANZAR nations which should be good for everyone (as long as it doesn't clog up the season too much)

Started well, but I stopped reading when you stared talking about no regional rugby before Xmas. The regions are going bankrupt now how will they cope with a shorter season....they wont!

The problem with Rugby Union is that it is a professional sport run by amateurs. That includes all the Northern Hemisphere Unions. It is also full of pundits who think they can do better, sadly I don't think this is one of them.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

biltongbek wrote:crichards, very nice post, one thing I disagree with though is having the Southern hemisphere visit the NH and yet there are no tours down south.

Will never be accepted by the SANZAR nations.

Your idea of each region having two satdia a prmiary and secondary one is very logical, in SA that happens even with tests, we sometimes play test matches outside of the main 4 stadia.

But Biltong there are (finally) some NH sides touring the south this summer (and next summer?) and didn't one of the SANZAR play a few club games up here last summer (Harlequins or Saracens?)

So with a bit more give and take it might be possible to have a few tours up here and in the SANZAR nations which should be good for everyone (as long as it doesn't clog up the season too much)

Absolutely, but from the suggestions of the OP there was no reference to summer tours, only that the Six nations take place in that time.

Hmm true I suppose - but don't our traditional Autumn Internationals fall just at the start of the SANZAR season?

crichards wrote:
Instead of a region being fed by 3 clubs, why not give the regions entire leagues of clubs.

The "regions" are free to employ players from wherever and are not limited to clubs within their WRU designated area. For example; Marc Breeze plays for Aberavon (the O's region) and is contracted to Cardiff Blues. This highlights one of the myths of regionalism. The term "feeder club" is also misleading.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Hmm true I suppose - but don't our traditional Autumn Internationals fall just at the start of the SANZAR season?

no mate it is right at the end of our season, its after ten months of solid rugby.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

crichards wrote:
Instead of a region being fed by 3 clubs, why not give the regions entire leagues of clubs.

The "regions" are free to employ players from wherever and are not limited to clubs within their WRU designated area. For example; Marc Breeze plays for Aberavon (the O's region) and is contracted to Cardiff Blues. This highlights one of the myths of regionalism. The term "feeder club" is also misleading.

Yes you can even sign players from Saracens or Doncaster if you want as well, but what crichards meant (seemed fairly obvious) was that within each region there are 3 designated clubs which feed into the regions Academy and that the players are dual registered for (ie in the Scarlets region a player could be registered for the Scarlets and one of Llanelli, Carmarthen Quins or Llandeilo) - that's why their called feeder clubs (In the Blues region it's Cardiff, Glam Wanderers and Pontypridd) - of course their not limited to only signing players they develop, (otherwise the Blues would never have gotten Halfpenny and the Scarlets would never have got Maule) but there is a system so that player can progress and develop through the Academy and club before being ready for the region and play in the Pro12 (all on a development contract)

biltongbek wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Hmm true I suppose - but don't our traditional Autumn Internationals fall just at the start of the SANZAR season?

no mate it is right at the end of our season, its after ten months of solid rugby.

Ahh I see - not a good time for a month and a half tour then...

crichards wrote:
Autumn internationals should be restricted to 3 tests in November and should alternate between the 3 big sides every 3 years - New Zealand year 1, Australia year 2 and South Africa year 3. The other 2 tests should be against a tier 2 nation such as Fiji and an uncapped test against a tier 3 nation (Namibia, Spain etc). As much as I love going to watch the big 3 at the millenium stadium, I think that the current cash cow is overkill and specators are getting too used to seeing the All blacks, Australians et al visit, lets make these matches meaningful again. Additionally, I'd like to see the Southern Hemisphere giants play tour matches once again. Either against the clubs or regions. They used to be massively important cash generators for grass roots Welsh rugby in the past and can be again.

Trouble is, most of the unions have an insatiable desire for cash and their only answer to this so far is to tour more often and play more matches.
Another thing, although it would be good to have touring sides playing the clubs/regions, unfortunately they won't play for nothing. If i'm not mistaken, when Cardiff Blues played the Wallabies 2 years ago at CCS they were paid a significant 6 figure sum to do so. I therefore doubt Cardiff Blues made much profit out it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

crichards wrote:
Autumn internationals should be restricted to 3 tests in November and should alternate between the 3 big sides every 3 years - New Zealand year 1, Australia year 2 and South Africa year 3. The other 2 tests should be against a tier 2 nation such as Fiji and an uncapped test against a tier 3 nation (Namibia, Spain etc). As much as I love going to watch the big 3 at the millenium stadium, I think that the current cash cow is overkill and specators are getting too used to seeing the All blacks, Australians et al visit, lets make these matches meaningful again. Additionally, I'd like to see the Southern Hemisphere giants play tour matches once again. Either against the clubs or regions. They used to be massively important cash generators for grass roots Welsh rugby in the past and can be again.

Trouble is, most of the unions have an insatiable desire for cash and their only answer to this so far is to tour more often and play more matches.
Another thing, although it would be good to have touring sides playing the clubs/regions, unfortunately they won't play for nothing. If i'm not mistaken, when Cardiff Blues played the Wallabies 2 years ago at CCS they were paid a significant 6 figure sum to do so. I therefore doubt Cardiff Blues made much profit out it.

That's not good - I guess the amateur days and tours are well and truly gone...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

crichards wrote:
Instead of a region being fed by 3 clubs, why not give the regions entire leagues of clubs.

The "regions" are free to employ players from wherever and are not limited to clubs within their WRU designated area. For example; Marc Breeze plays for Aberavon (the O's region) and is contracted to Cardiff Blues. This highlights one of the myths of regionalism. The term "feeder club" is also misleading.

Yes you can even sign players from Saracens or Doncaster if you want as well, but what crichards meant (seemed fairly obvious) was that within each region there are 3 designated clubs which feed into the regions Academy and that the players are dual registered for (ie in the Scarlets region a player could be registered for the Scarlets and one of Llanelli, Carmarthen Quins or Llandeilo) - that's why their called feeder clubs (In the Blues region it's Cardiff, Glam Wanderers and Pontypridd) - of course their not limited to only signing players they develop, (otherwise the Blues would never have gotten Halfpenny and the Scarlets would never have got Maule) but there is a system so that player can progress and develop through the Academy and club before being ready for the region and play in the Pro12 (all on a development contract)

Cardiff a "feeder club" to Cardiff Blues?
OK.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

crichards wrote:
Instead of a region being fed by 3 clubs, why not give the regions entire leagues of clubs.

The "regions" are free to employ players from wherever and are not limited to clubs within their WRU designated area. For example; Marc Breeze plays for Aberavon (the O's region) and is contracted to Cardiff Blues. This highlights one of the myths of regionalism. The term "feeder club" is also misleading.

Yes you can even sign players from Saracens or Doncaster if you want as well, but what crichards meant (seemed fairly obvious) was that within each region there are 3 designated clubs which feed into the regions Academy and that the players are dual registered for (ie in the Scarlets region a player could be registered for the Scarlets and one of Llanelli, Carmarthen Quins or Llandeilo) - that's why their called feeder clubs (In the Blues region it's Cardiff, Glam Wanderers and Pontypridd) - of course their not limited to only signing players they develop, (otherwise the Blues would never have gotten Halfpenny and the Scarlets would never have got Maule) but there is a system so that player can progress and develop through the Academy and club before being ready for the region and play in the Pro12 (all on a development contract)

Cardiff a "feeder club" to Cardiff Blues?
OK.

Yes as you well know Cardiff RFC feed the Cardiff Blues region with players - they are two seperate entities who compete at 2 different levels of rugby, and players generally play for Cardiff RFC 1st and then if they are good enough they get promoted to Cardiff Blues - it's a simple concept to be honest and has nothing to do with ownership (and yes I know that Cardiff RFC - with Cardiff Athletics Club, own Cardiff Blues)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Yes as you well know Cardiff RFC feed the Cardiff Blues region with players - they are two seperate entities who compete at 2 different levels of rugby, and players generally play for Cardiff RFC 1st and then if they are good enough they get promoted to Cardiff Blues - it's a simple concept to be honest and has nothing to do with ownership (and yes I know that Cardiff RFC - with Cardiff Athletics Club, own Cardiff Blues)

It has everything to do with ownership as it is just one club.
It's why any Cardiff (Welsh prem) player, whether they are in the academy or not, can be called up to the Cardiff Blues squad as and when required. Two teams, one club. The same can't be said about Ponty players since it is a different club altogether.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Yes as you well know Cardiff RFC feed the Cardiff Blues region with players - they are two seperate entities who compete at 2 different levels of rugby, and players generally play for Cardiff RFC 1st and then if they are good enough they get promoted to Cardiff Blues - it's a simple concept to be honest and has nothing to do with ownership (and yes I know that Cardiff RFC - with Cardiff Athletics Club, own Cardiff Blues)

It has everything to do with ownership as it is just one club.
It's why any Cardiff (Welsh prem) player, whether they are in the academy or not, can be called up to the Cardiff Blues squad as and when required. Two teams, one club. The same can't be said about Ponty players since it is a different club altogether.

No it can be said of Ponty players (and with Scarlets Llandeilo and Quinns) - you're opinion is that Cardiff Blues are just Cardiff RFC's A's - but in practice and as stated by the WRU and the league structures and agreements between clubs and regions it works in a pyramid system with the region at the top and then underneath that are 3 clubs (might be 4 in the Dragons case) these clubs feed into the region and feed players into it. Players can then be fed from the region to the clubs (if their not getting game time or their form has dropped) - the same can not be said of any other club in Wales/England/Scotland/Ireland ect...

I'm not sure if your talking at adult level only, but at junior and youth level there are no feeder clubs in prem clubs.

Players play for their local clubs, no matter what level they may be and participate int the regional academy, if succesfull they move up to the regional squad if not they are generally sent packing. There are a number of players who are given 'advice' about going to play for certain clubs, and generally a favoured club!

At adult level it is an absolute free for all... and mess!

Cardiff Dai - A Blues player can drop down from playing for the Blues and run out for Cardiff RFC, Pontypridd or Glamorgan Warriors. And likewise a player can be called up from any one of the three too, regardless of whether they are in the academy or not. So for example, if you get a fly half shortage next season, Ceri Sweeney can then be drafted in from Ponty. Peter Edwards and Joe Ajuwa (god knows what happened to him) were both called up from feeder clubs for the Scarlets in such a way due to injury crisis' and were then given regional contracts afterwards