Irish front row selections for New Zealand tour

by **Biltong** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 9:16 am

Select the two best for each position.

by red_stag Fri 20 Apr 2012, 9:18 am

Healy, Court, Cronin, Best, Hagan, Ross

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 9:23 am

red_stag wrote:Healy, Court, Cronin, Best, Hagan, Ross

+1

Is Strauss IQ yet?

Could Macklin or Fitzpatrick surpass Hagan if they get a few games in Ulsters end of season games?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:23 am

red_stag wrote:Healy, Court, Cronin, Best, Hagan, Ross

+1
Pretty standard one IMO

Thanks for doing this again Biltong.

by **Notch** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:25 am

Agree with the lads above, picks itself really.

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:26 am

Hang on if everyone agrees then who's voted for macklin?

by **Biltong** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:27 am

No worries, Pete, I am starting to have an interest in Irish rugby for some reason (definitely not because of Ruan, Johan, Stefan, Pedrie etc) Whistle

And because I am pedantic I like order to things, this way the selection process in organised. thumbsup

by **Notch** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 11:54 am

Pedrie Wannenburg is moving to Castres, sadly, and Terblanche is retiring so next season we'll only have two Springboks at Ulster Sad

Frustratingly, thats a result of only being able to offer one year contracts to NIQ players over 30. Wannenburg gone for greater job security.

by **Biltong** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:03 pm

we'll only have two Springboks at Ulster

Enough in my view. Whistle

by caoimhincentre Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:04 pm

Think Sherry is great prospect. throw him in the deep end for one of the match's. as far as i am aware he is a good scrummager and his line out throwing seems very good.
also he is good around the park which is vital i believe for a modern hooker as line outs become less frequent.

by Portnoy Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:18 pm

Can anyone see anything but a stuffing in the front row coming up?

And a total violation of the line-out?

And an exposure of the back ten as they refuse to rebuild?

I can only predict a total hammering if Ireland hang on to the remnants of their golden generation.

Well I'd predict a hammering anyway. But the time for confronting the future is now -not one or two years down the line.

Anyone remember Australia 76 England 0? And that side included Jonny.

Time to let go and take some losses and look forward.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:18 pm

I would say Sherry is behind Cronin. Cronin has really impressed me this year.

by caoimhincentre Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:20 pm

Portnoy wrote:Can anyone see anything but a stuffing in the front row coming up?

And a total violation of the line-out?

And an exposure of the back ten as they refuse to rebuild?

I can only predict a total hammering if Ireland hang on to the remnants of their golden generation.

Well I'd predict a hammering anyway. But the time for confronting the future is now -not one or two years down the line.

Anyone remember Australia 76 England 0? And that side included Jonny.

Time to let go and take some losses and look forward.

Golden generation??
There will be 3 players over 30 starting for Ireland in NZ. BOD POC and Ross.

This concept of a golden generation is a load of rubbish and anyone who thinks is applicable to Ireland just doesnt know Irish players.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:24 pm

I don't see a suffing in the front row as long as Mike Ross stays fit,we'll hold our own wihout too much bother but without him we're fooked.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:28 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Can anyone see anything but a stuffing in the front row coming up?

And a total violation of the line-out?

And an exposure of the back ten as they refuse to rebuild?

I can only predict a total hammering if Ireland hang on to the remnants of their golden generation.

Well I'd predict a hammering anyway. But the time for confronting the future is now -not one or two years down the line.

Anyone remember Australia 76 England 0? And that side included Jonny.

Time to let go and take some losses and look forward.

Golden generation??
There will be 3 players over 30 starting for Ireland in NZ. BOD POC and Ross.

This concept of a golden generation is a load of rubbish and anyone who thinks is applicable to Ireland just doesnt know Irish players.

Actually it is likely D'Arcy will start, and possibly even O'Callaghan. Reddan who should start is over 30 too.

by caoimhincentre Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:29 pm

disagree.

Murray will start 9, D'Arcy is finished at international level and Ryan will start at 4.

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:31 pm

Portnoy wrote:

And a total violation of the line-out?

Our line out is one of the best around? Headscratch

In fact I'd say O'Connell is probably the best lineout forward in the game right now. Donnacha Ryan is no slouch either.

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:36 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:disagree.

Murray will start 9.

Well he shouldn't because he's in very poor form. He was so poor against Ulster I thought Red stag was going to organise a lynch mob..... Whistle

If we have that same slow service against the ABs McCaw will have a field day and they'll put 60 points on us.

by Portnoy Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:37 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Can anyone see anything but a stuffing in the front row coming up?

And a total violation of the line-out?

And an exposure of the back ten as they refuse to rebuild?

I can only predict a total hammering if Ireland hang on to the remnants of their golden generation.

Well I'd predict a hammering anyway. But the time for confronting the future is now -not one or two years down the line.

Anyone remember Australia 76 England 0? And that side included Jonny.

Time to let go and take some losses and look forward.

Golden generation??
There will be 3 players over 30 starting for Ireland in NZ. BOD POC and Ross.

This concept of a golden generation is a load of rubbish and anyone who thinks is applicable to Ireland just doesnt know Irish players.

by red_stag Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:42 pm

rodders wrote:
caoimhincentre wrote:disagree.

Murray will start 9.

Well he shouldn't because he's in very poor form. He was so poor against Ulster I thought Red stag was going to organise a lynch mob.....

If we have that same slow service against the ABs McCaw will have a field day and they'll put 60 points on us.

Oh he was bloody dreadful that day.

YEsterday when I was looking up his stats for Biltong I was amazed to see how little top flight he has played.

He has 9 Heineken Cup appearances and 13 games in the Celtic League.

That is just 22 games for Munster and he has been capped 9 or 10 times for Ireland.

by Portnoy Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:49 pm

rodders wrote:
Portnoy wrote:

And a total violation of the line-out?

Our line out is one of the best around? In fact I'd say O'Connell is probably the best lineout forward in the game right now. Donnacha Ryan is no slouch either.

Donnacha Ryan age 28 - 2015 - survivable
POC (age 32) - prphww...

Ireland are displaying all the mistakes of England class of 2003 graduation year.

by red_stag Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:56 pm

Portnoy, the major difference with the class of 2003 was that England kept chopping and changing. They never built a new team.

Ireland have a lot less player to choose from (4 teams instead of 12) and a new generation will come about.

Ferris, O'Brien, Kearney, Bowe, Healy, Best, Heaslip, Sexton etc - these are guys who are in their 20s that we will work towards. We have got rid of Flannery, Hayes, Easterby, Wallace, Leamy, Stringer, Hickie, Dempsey, Horgan, Murphy etc. Over next year I suspect we'll ditch Darcy, O'Callaghan and O'Gara. That will leave O'Driscoll and O'Connell as the only remaining players. They'll go after that.

Don't worry we'll be fine. POC, BOD and ROG are really one a genration players and we will never get a like for like replacement. But we will have stronger players in other positions.

I would classify Simon Easterby as a member of the golden generation period. He won 65 caps from 2000-2008 and was picked for Lions. An Eddie O'Sullivan favourite. However Ferris is a much better player.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:57 pm

Back ten Portnoy? Headscratch

If Ireland pick a back ten, I think they´re favourites to win.

by Portnoy Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:01 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Back ten Portnoy? If Ireland pick a back ten, I think they´re favourites to win.

That would be the ten people behind the front five Kia. Ten plus five equals fifteen...

by caoimhincentre Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:23 pm

Portnoy wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Back ten Portnoy? If Ireland pick a back ten, I think they´re favourites to win.

That would be the ten people behind the front five Kia. Ten plus five equals fifteen...

you must be the first person in history to make that description.

regardless your golden generation theory is completely flawed

by Thomond Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:26 pm

With Munster, Murray isn't helped by the fact ROG stands so deep so any quick ball (he hasn't done a lot of it lately) is ruined by the time it reaches the centres.

by geoff998rugby Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:27 pm

Fitzpatrick is ahead of Macklin.

Macklin cannot be consider his provinces never play him.
He has 1 Provincial start in his life.
He should be nowhere near the tour party and wont be.

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:28 pm

Portnoy wrote:
Donnacha Ryan age 28 - 2015 - survivable
POC (age 32) - prphww...

Ireland are displaying all the mistakes of England class of 2003 graduation year.

Whilst I agree to some extent with the latter statement I don't agree with the former.

Paul O'Connell is playing the best rugby of his career and is arguably the best lock in the game right now.

Ryan is just coming into his prime and Tuohy and Toner aren't far behind and have already been capped.

30 is a good age for a lock and most of our players are a few years either side of that.

by geoff998rugby Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:29 pm

biltongbek wrote:
we'll only have two Springboks at Ulster
Enough in my view.

Wont stop the southern press saying the side are full of them though Whistle

by **rodders** Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:31 pm

Thomond wrote:With Munster, Murray isn't helped by the fact ROG stands so deep so any quick ball (he hasn't done a lot of it lately) is ruined by the time it reaches the centres.

True but is part of the reason ROG is so deep is because the ball is slow? If the ball is slow the fly half has no option but to drop back. Its a vicious circle.

One of the problems with Sexton for Ireland is he stands much deeper than at Leinster and a big part of that is a lack of understanding with his half back partner.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:31 pm

Well quite, Portnoy.

I've heard of a back row and a back three. But this is the first time I've heard of a back ten. It sounds like a good set piece move.

by Thomond Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:33 pm

rodders wrote:
Thomond wrote:With Munster, Murray isn't helped by the fact ROG stands so deep so any quick ball (he hasn't done a lot of it lately) is ruined by the time it reaches the centres.

True but is part of the reason ROG is so deep is because the ball is slow? If the ball is slow the fly half has no option but to drop back. Its a vicious circle.

One of the problems with Sexton for Ireland is he stands much deeper than at Leinster and a big part of that is a lack of understanding with his half back partner.

No, he has stood deep for a bit a season and a half now and it is one of the reasons the Munster backline has been so ineffective.

by Portnoy Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:40 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Well quite, Portnoy.

I've heard of a back row and a back three. But this is the first time I've heard of a back ten. It sounds like a good set piece move.

I didn't invent arithmetic but I'd guess that in a 15 unit set which contained a front five subset, implies a back ten.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 20 Apr 2012, 1:46 pm

I'm not arguing with your maths. I am aware of what five and ten make. I'm simply pointing out your coining of the back ten won't catch on. Front five, back row, back three these are all common rugby teams. Back ten sounds like an X Factor group. Why not just say apart from the front five. Especially when you say the back ten need rebuilding. Well Sexton is not part of the so-called generation and Kearney doesn't warrant selection.

Anyway sorry to lock horns with you ol' chap. Have a great weekend and I insist on buying the first one. Ale

by **Pal Joey** Sat 21 Apr 2012, 3:57 am

Portnoy wrote:Can anyone see anything but a stuffing in the front row coming up?

And a total violation of the line-out?

And an exposure of the back ten as they refuse to rebuild?

I can only predict a total hammering if Ireland hang on to the remnants of their golden generation.

Well I'd predict a hammering anyway. But the time for confronting the future is now -not one or two years down the line.

Anyone remember Australia 76 England 0? And that side included Jonny.

Time to let go and take some losses and look forward.

I sure do. Very Happy

It was very enjoyable to watch the dismantling of that England side... however, to be fair, there were a couple of line ball passes leading to tries.

By the way I went for Healy, Best, Court, Cronin, Ross, Hagan as well.

by The Great Aukster Wed 25 Apr 2012, 9:03 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Fitzpatrick is ahead of Macklin.

Macklin cannot be consider his provinces never play him.
He has 1 Provincial start in his life.
He should be nowhere near the tour party and wont be.

Agree totally Geoff. Fitz is a decent scrummager now and I would have him ahead of Hagan never mind Macklin. He can also cover loosehead so would be an ideal tourist.

by **Pal Joey** Wed 25 Apr 2012, 9:14 am

I recommend he visit the hot springs in Rotorua.... wonderful place. Very Happy

by geoff998rugby Wed 25 Apr 2012, 9:15 am

Spot on; because he struggles a bit fitness wise Fitzpatrick is ignored.

For scrummaging alone he is the best choice for the Irish bench bar none and that includes Court. He has an ability to cover both sides that neither Court or Hagan are remotely equal too.

by Submachine Wed 25 Apr 2012, 10:29 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Spot on; because he struggles a bit fitness wise Fitzpatrick is ignored.

For scrummaging alone he is the best choice for the Irish bench bar none and that includes Court. He has an ability to cover both sides that neither Court or Hagan are remotely equal too.

That's not really a fair comparison given that Hagan is an out and out tight head and has never appeared at loose head. Having said that I thought Fitzpatrick was very impressive last weekend. He and Archer were both picked ahead of Hagan for the wolfhounds this year and I think Loughney may be ahead of Hagan in Kidneys view also. I would expect Fitzpatrick to be on the plan ahead of him.
Hagan will be more of a late bloomer I reckon, a bit like Ross. He can be a very effective scrummager without being destructive but he is inconsistent. For a young guy he doesn't get round the park as well as you would expect but he has weight issues. He struggles to maintain 19.5 stone and is naturally much lighter. I read somewhere that just a few seasons back he was 15 stone.

by geoff998rugby Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:07 am

Fairness has nothing to do with it - it a statement of fact.

Court is not capable of playing TH to the required standard
Hagan is not capable of playing LH to the required standard.

Therefore neither should be on the bench for Ireland - Fitzpatrick is a better bet than both.

If Healy got injured Court would be selected
If Ross got injured Hagan would be selected

but if you want a player to cover both sides then Fitzpatrick is probably the best fit. Which given his fitness levels is a worry in its self but he can scrummage

by Submachine Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:00 pm

A statement of fact? Here's another, a pear is a much better apple than a banana. We are talking about a touring squad here and Hagan has a shot at it. However he would be nowhere near a test 22 and would only start in midweek games unless Ross was injured.
As I said though, I don't think he will get the call.

by BoyneRFC Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:11 pm

So leaving out the front row, you'd have a back 12 I guess?

Or without the FB, a front 14?

Anyway Portnoy, I am glad you are enjoying yourself discussing your favourite subject- Irish Rugby.

Such a wannabe.... Whistle

by geoff998rugby Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1:07 pm

Submachine by your own admission Hagan has never appeared as a LH - Fitzpatrick has at Provincial level and done so successfully. On that basis Fitzpatrick is capable of being the prop on the bench for Ireland in a way Hagan is not.

As I said Hagan would still be ahead of Fitzpatrick if Ross got injured but as a cover for both LH and TH - Fitzpatrick all the way.

I think you are taking my observation that Hagan cant play LH, which you seem to agree with, as a criticism it is not.

There is a difference between opinion (apples, bananas and pears being best) and a claim of fact based upon known data and observational evidence.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1:37 pm

Careful Boyne, he´ll bring out the maths equations on you...

15 - 1 = 14. Such foolproof logic makes it impossible to argue with.

by Submachine Wed 25 Apr 2012, 2:20 pm

I was merely pointing out that your statement of fact that Hagan can't play LH to the required standard is a bit misleading as he doesn't play there at all. You could say the same about Keith Earls (though I'm sure Deccie will give him a go at some stage).
With regard to prop cover on the bench, you are probably right about Fitz. If you are going to have one prop on the bench covering both sides it should be a TH who can cover LH rather than the other way round IMO. Is there anything stopping an international team having two props on the bench?

by geoff998rugby Wed 25 Apr 2012, 2:51 pm

Submachine wrote: If you are going to have one prop on the bench covering both sides it should be a TH who can cover LH rather than the other way round IMO.

On that we agree, 9 times out of 10 it is easier for a TH to play LH than the other way round

Submachine wrote: Is there anything stopping an international team having two props on the bench?

No but you either got with a 5-2 split or a player covering back 2nd row and Backrow.

I know this thread assumes only 2 players per position but I think we should take 3 for LH, TH, Hooker, SH and FH and only take 5 back three players - total squad of 34 players.

On that basis I would take - Ross, Healy, Court, Hagan, McAllister, Fitzpatrick

by Golden Wed 25 Apr 2012, 4:13 pm

How many appearances does Fitzpatrick have this season? Would people rate him above Andress (for the record hardly ever seen Andress play just heard his name been out forward here).

If we play the usual team could we see a bench of

16. Cronin
17. Court
18. Hagan/Fitzpatrick
19. Toner/Tuohy/DOC
20. Murray
21. Madigan
22. McFadden

Ryan starting and covering the back row as well.

by The Great Aukster Wed 25 Apr 2012, 5:23 pm

Why on earth would Ireland put two mediocre props on the bench when they could have one and if he got injured they could go to uncontested scrums?

Loughney and Wilkinson have also played both sides

by Golden Wed 25 Apr 2012, 6:14 pm

To develop some depth at prop.

by The Great Aukster Wed 25 Apr 2012, 6:31 pm

How could bringing two mediocre props off the bench possibly develop them? Surely keeping one side solid gives the other a far better chance?

by Sponsored content