McGeechan on the scrum

“If I could change one thing, it would be to take away the hit at the scrummage because I think the physics of it are against stability.

"I’d go back to having the front rows engage, then getting the back five on, then the set and then the drive. It wouldn’t stop sides scrummaging and we would still have a physical, technical contest, but it would improve a situation which currently can’t be refereed properly and is inherently unstable.”

What can I say - absolutely right and obvious. Why can't the IRB see it? Scrums are becoming a farce and this is a simple solution.

If i could take away one thing, it would be the Pause. I think this is responsible for alot of collapsed scrums, reset scrums.

The ref should say down, touch, engage. I think this would be better for both teams, in fact i am pretty sure this is how it used to be, pre 2003 rugby world cup.

Here's a clip of Newport v Pontypool in 1992. Look at the scrum on 30 seconds. I think this is what the scrum should revert to. Both teams engage and then the ref waits until the scrum is settled, and then the push is only allowed as soon as the ball is put in. However, as this video shows, this does not negate the dominant scrum. Pontypool are able to win this against the head even without the hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksa2rKcKf8c

I just think this would simplify things so much, be a better spectacle, less wasted game time, yet not taking away the art of scrummaging which I think is vital for the identiy of union as a sport. Without props you'd have a team of 'lean' players approaching uniformity in size which would do away with the mismatches that make the sport so entertaining.

Agre fully and that is a good example Griff. Zero tolerance on feeding at the scrum is needed as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Agre fully and that is a good example Griff. Zero tolerance on feeding at the scrum is needed as well.

+1

I think virtually everyone agrees that the easiest way to sort the scrum is simply to use the rules that are there.

"The hit" is not in the rules. The rules say that the scrum must be square and balanced and that no pushing should happen until the ball is put in straight. It actually changes how props and hookers have to do their job, making it far more of a wrestle and needing more static and dynamic strength than explosive strength. This will mean that square props (as wide as they are tall) and the shorter guys who can get the body angles right will be really good scrummagers, helping stop everyone from becoming identikit 6'4" muscle men.

The sooner the IRB simply make the referees apply the laws that are already there the better.

I posted this a while back on this thread

https://www.606v2.com/t27788-problem-at-the-scrum-the-team-jersey-s

I just wish the IRB would read this thread!

Everyone seems to be in agreement.

The Hit is stupid. get rid of it. Go back to scrums as they used to be and let the game continue rather than subjecting us to restart after restart!!!

I quite like the hit, most pro props don't seem to mind it either

damage_13 wrote:I posted this a while back on this thread

https://www.606v2.com/t27788-problem-at-the-scrum-the-team-jersey-s

Tis a fair point, damage, you see a lot of penalties given for a slipped binding where one player just hasn't been able to get enough shirt to grab on to

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

damage_13 wrote:I posted this a while back on this thread

https://www.606v2.com/t27788-problem-at-the-scrum-the-team-jersey-s

Tis a fair point, damage, you see a lot of penalties given for a slipped binding where one player just hasn't been able to get enough shirt to grab on to

The answer is simple. All props should be required to grow the same set of love handles as Chunk Jacobsen has carefully nurtured. Problem solved.

gowales wrote:I quite like the hit, most pro props don't seem to mind it either

Everybody likes the hit when the scrum stays stable and the game commences as normal. But as Geech says, the laws of physics are against modern scrums staying stable. So we're getting the terrible setting and resetting and finally random penalty. It's awful.

yes, the hit can't be done without decent binding, but the existing rules STILL need to be reinforced.

hmmm....

What about if the scrum needs to be re-set a second time then the bind is done first but its the ref, that puts the ball in.

If the team without the ball tries to disrupt the put in during the first scrum with a dominant hit (more than two feet of movement) and bad binding (collapse) then they are penalised.

If the team with the ball doesn't bind properly or collapses in the first scrum they lose the put in to the ref.

in other words Both teams stand to lose something if they don't bind correctly and contest correctly the first time.

If its down to a moving pitch the thee fault isnt the teams and the scrum is re-set as normal.

in addition the closest lines judge should be called in to ref the other side of the scrum to ensure correct binding/straight put in and illegal boring.

One thing that gets me is the props going out of their way to stop the other team getting a bind

I think the ref putting it in is a good idea too as it makes it a contest and the scrum has to be stable to try win it.

The ref can't put the ball in.

For one thing the cries of "Cheating ref" will be heard across the land, but more importantly, the side that has the put in should rightly have the advantage. With the put in (if you apply the rules properly, the team has the advantage of knowing exactly when the ball will arrive and hence when to start shoving. With the ref putting it in it is 50-50 - surely not fair if the opposition knock on?

thats why I said it should only be done as 'punishment' if the team with the put in can't bind and hold properly.

re-read what I wrote

To be fair the scrum is more of a its no ones fault let start again. A knock on isn't really free its just giving the ball to the other side to strat their attack.

Why can't they put the ball in place and from the scrum with ball in place and then ref says push and they go at it.

If a player touches the ball other then when the hooker gets his distance is a pen to the other team and moved up the field 10ms

Surely that would make them fairer

Crounch, bind, when everyone is correctly bound "GO", scum half has 5 seconds to get the ball in otherwise free kick

Why don't prop shirts have handles?

or

crouch, bind (ref checks binding), 3 ,2 ,1, push!