The Ruan Pienaar conundrum.

Ruan Pienaar has been playing professional rugby since 2004 and has run out for the sharks in 57 super rugby matches and 51 times times for the Springboks.

After leaving for Ulster in 2010 he has become the darling of an Ulster team who seems to have become very reliant on his kicking boot. Ruan Pienaar has always been a confidence player and in my opinion often been omitted from a springbok team in favour of more conservative and controlling players who are perhaps more consitent than him, but yet less creative. Players such as Fourie du Preez at scrumhalf and Butch James and Morne Steyn at flyhalf was always deemed more dependable in the last few years of Pieter de villier's reign and perhaps the catalyst that made him look at greener pastures across the sea.

The question now is this. Fourie du Preez may not come back, and even if he did, he is no longer the player he once was before his shoulder injury, Morne Steyn for all intent and purposes is only a kicking machine and looking at the consistent accuracy of Ruan Pienaar, is Morne Steyn still that vital when looking for a goal kicker?

Ruan Pienaar can play 9 and 10 equally well and when looking at taking Morne steyn out of the equation it opens up all kinds of possibilities for a more adventurous springbok backline if he isn't there.

Just a thought, most likely just a pipe dream of mine.

Thats Ruan O'Pienaar to you Biltong......

rodders wrote:Thats Ruan O'Pienaar to you Biltong......

I am only back for only a few hours and you are already stealing our players.

Who are the more adventurous 10s in SA just now?

Thought you wanted Lambie to take that 10 spot Bilt....

The 10 contenders in SA would be, Lambie and Morne steyn at a clear glance.

If Meyer however is open minded he will have 4 contenders with two seasoned pro's in Pienaar and Steyn.

The two young guns are Goosen and Lambie.

Forget for a moment that Goosen is injured.

Kicking to goal out of ten.
Steyn 9
Goosen 9
Pienaar 8
Lambie 7

Tactical kicking
Goosen 8
Pienaar 8
Lambie 7
Steyn 7 ( he tends to have some horror kicks in the latter stages of a match)

Running at a hole.
Lambie 8
Goosen 8
Pienaar 7
Steyn 6

Defense
Goosen 8
Pienaar 7
Lambie 7
Steyn 7

Getting the back line away
Goosen 8
Lambie 8
Pienaar 8
Steyn 6

X factor
Lambie 8
Goosen 8
Pienaar 7
Steyn 6

Experience
Pienaar 8
Steyn 8
Lambie 7
Goosen 4

From your stats its Goosen then?

Nah Biltong Pienaar is rubbish sir....let it go.....no use to SA whatsoever ...nothing to see here......

Unfortunately his experience counts against him, no Springbok coach would pick him at this stage, but he is certainly my pick for most likely to wear the springbok 10 come next world cup, and if he keeps his form, otherwise Lambie if he can get his goal kicking sorted.

rodders wrote:Nah Biltong Pienaar is rubbish sir....let it go.....no use to SA whatsoever ...nothing to see here......

I believe you rodders, I doubt anyone else does.

Ruan would be a far better bet than Fioure who to be honest has never regained his form since 09. Added to that he's in Japan and playing with all due respect... sub-standard rugby (for a player looking to play for the boks).

Ruan was badly managed by PDV thats for sure and how he was cast aside was rather criminal.

Ruan & Morne have been friends since they've been kids so I'm sure they would be able to form a great partnership.

Meyer has to make sure he puts his own mark on the side. PDV fell for that trap by using white's '07 model but not knowing how to fit it to '11 rugby. Choosing Matfield and Fioure over younger and in form players would send out a terrible message to the players.... you're not good enough, even those are old, half crocked and retired are better. Ruan is playing a good standard of rugby and in a competition which is toe to toe with S15.

The SA public need some freshness breathed into the boks. Picking Morne is obvious but putting a playmaker in Ruan beside him may relieve the pressure a little and allow him to open himself up more. Hougaard needs a big pack behind him as otherwise he really struggles.

Ruan is surely the only overseas bok worth selecting to the squad.

Imo Ruan signed away his Bok aspirations when he went to Ireland .He was never the guaranteed starter in the 9 position with fourie and ricky januarie in the mix and he didnt have the Bmt and confidence in the 10 jersey . Now with blue blood Heyneke at the helm Ruan will not jump Hougaard in the 9 jersey unless hougaard got injured and Charl Mcleod got very unlucky .

As for flyhalf well theres Morne , Lambie And Goosen who all have their special qualities that set them apart from everyone . Say whatever you will bout Morne but the man has ice for blood and a laser like boot .His radar may be a bit shaky atm but everyone has to have a bad day at the office at some point .

Lambie is another big match youngster who attacks the gameline and given a proper pack he can be very dominant and controlling .The thing about lambie is he isnt flashy but you'll definately notice his presence

and Finally Goosen my personal pick for 10 , cannon boot, pace , adventurous and an eye for the gap.Last week he took the highlanders to school culminating with tht 60m try which included turning Hosea gear inside out . With him at 10 the cheetahs were leading 33-10 ,Goosen goes off at 55min and they lose the game. tells you all you need to know

So where does Ruan fit in all this ?

The thing I like about Ruan is that he has so much talent, because of this White and PDV always found him useful to be in the squad.

Monty went into test wilderness for near 4 years and came back a far better player. Ruan is having a similar experience in the UK and he certainly young enough to go to the next world cup and beyond.

You can imagine a player like Hougaard will burn out before he is 30.... he is too physical and therefore prone to injury and his game is based around his explosive power. Once that goes, he will be down to his core skills which in honesty are not what they should be for a bok 9.

Pienaar is different, he has the game to go on well past his 30s, it just depends if he's willing to bide his time.

Goosen is a revelation. Shame about the injury but he is here to stay and looks like he will take the 10 jersey maybe by next years AIs if all goes well.

a Morne, Frans & Lambie combo at 10,12 & 15 for the 4N will be awesome however. No one would dare concede a penalty from the oppositions 10metre line and the territorial kicking battle will be sewn up every game. Get a decent forward platform and I could see the boks doing very well (injuries pending).
Lose Frans though and the centres look pretty threadbare.

You do make a good point but Pienaar is entirely too old to challenge now (28) whereas hougaard lambie goosen juan de jongh steyn mvovo jpp are all 25 and under .thats an entire backline

in terms of a partnership, i would like to see
9. pienaar
10. Lambie, or Goosen next season

i feel that if pienaar is in the team at 9, he can really take the pressure off lambie at 10 in terms of kicking, and having lambie at 10 would enable the backline to get more attacking ball and be more dangerous.

having discussed goosen previously from what i have heard he will be the definate starter at 10 before long, so for the next rwc i would like to see

10. goosen
12. f steyn
15. lambie

i wouldnt mind having pienaar at 9 with that combo, but it will be much more likely that hougaard will have the 9 shirt, both for this series and for the next world cup, and in fairness a quick strong god tackling 9 works better with the RWC combination i have choosen, and perhaps with morne steyn as well if he is picked in the upcoming tests

The one thing I would say as an Ulster supporter is only consider him as a 9.

In that position his play has been quite brilliant but as a 10 he comes across as talented, competant but nothing special.

I would not consider him for 10 from what I have seen.

How is Goosen's shoulder? It looked bad after he hurt it.
Seems a serious talent........

Exactly why if he is put in at 9, it opens the door for Lambie who isn't the most accurate kicker, but offers a lot more currently than Steyn at 10.

doctor_grey wrote:How is Goosen's shoulder? It looked bad after he hurt it.
Seems a serious talent........

He is said to be out for 4 months Doc.

Shame. I enjoyed watching him this Super Rugby season.
At least with a shoulder injury, its possible to keep is some kind of decent shape, making his comback easier than from other injuries.

The problem for Goosen is that at his age he needs game time to develop.... 4 months off is in reality 9 months off as he is out for the season and S15 rugby only begins next Feb.

I doubt he will make it to the AI tour given he will only just be getting back to fitness... it would probably be unwise for him personally to waltz into the bok team when what he will really need is a strong pre-season.

For me Goosens be THE best performer in the sxv rounds to date. Given his age at 19 and goal range of 65m plus...neither reason being why I say this... His all round game, instinct, option taking, his pace...that in out on Gear was fantastic!

Hes got it all in front of him. Just a shame injuys hit now. Means steyn will be 10 with meyer probably wanting to have both steyn and lambie on the field.

Steyn may have a laset radar like boot. But it doesnt count for much against us. And his blood certainly was icy when he was at 15 when jane ran up to and around him. It froze him to the ground so much he couldnt move.

Hopefully Goosen can begin training right after cleared, and is not rushed back too soon. I agree he was playing real great Rugby and everything was falling into place nicely. I actually started loking for his matches to catch a glimpse.

I feel that if pienaar is in the team at 9, he can really take the pressure off lambie at 10 in terms of kicking, and having lambie at 10 would enable the backline to get more attacking ball and be more dangerous.

That would be the best use for Pienaar given how he plays for Ulster. Ulster lack a big game 10 and so Pienaar and the IC Wallace take on a lot of the responsibilities. Pienaar generally takes on the tactical aspects whilst Wallace is a more creative influence.

It's noted above that Hougaard only flourishes behind a big pack, well Ulster's 8 are certainly not small and are anything but shy when it comes to the more physical aspects so he may be in a similar position. Not that the Boks put on packs who struggle to mix it physically.

The only problem with hougaard is his kicking game is prone to errors and he doesn't provide as much control if needed, that said he is class in all other departments.

Goosen will be a star in the future, we were all very excited about Lambie, he has the same problem Frans Steyn had (if you want to call it a problem) utility value. Similar to Frans Steyn he can play 10,12 and 15.

For now with the experience he has he is the best candidate for 10.

I'm not so sure on Hougaards delivery. Put him up against a class 9 when his pack isn't dominating and he is all over Hougaard like flies on s***.

Given the bulls are so dominant this doesn't happen that often but at test level it is more apparent.
Nevertheless I don't see anyone outside of Ruan and Du Preez who are much better in that department and they are both in exile.

fa0019 wrote:I'm not so sure on Hougaards delivery. Put him up against a class 9 when his pack isn't dominating and he is all over Hougaard like flies on s***.

Given the bulls are so dominant this doesn't happen that often but at test level it is more apparent.
Nevertheless I don't see anyone outside of Ruan and Du Preez who are much better in that department and they are both in exile.

i've yet to see Hougaard being dominated by any 9 this year .Even when the bulls have lost Hougaard has been top class. And again he doesnt play with a dodgy pack . Both Bulls and boks are known for their dominant packs . Hougaard reminds me a lot of Joost except he's shorter .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I51jBTua5w

Bullsbok, Joost had a pass Hougaard has yet to emulate.

biltongbek wrote:Bullsbok, Joost had a pass Hougaard has yet to emulate.

Very true but a choice between Pienaar and hougaard ,winner will always be Hougaard. I will never forget Ruan pienaar's horror kicking shows during the Lions tour He might have matured in Ulster but we all know Springbok rugby is a different beast all together. One missed kick in newlands and the booing starts and we all know how that story ends with Ruan pienaar (moronic cape fans btw )

So you have no qualms about Hougaard and Steyn being the half back pairing for the next four years?

I just dont see Steyn surviving the pressure from Goosen and Lambie .

When do you propose Meyer selects them.

They're at the future ,if news reports are to believed Goosen in particular was going to be either a shock starter in June or guaranteed bench duty .Heyneke is not Pdv he's all about development and those two youngsters are the future .

I don't think Goosen was on the radar for this year to be honest, my concenr is we scrape through england with steyn, then comes the four nations and Meyer has no choice to stick with morne, sends Lambie north in december with a tired bunch of players, convinces himself Morne is the man to stick with, and we have the PDV era all over again for another 4 years.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/springboks/meyer-weighs-options-for-june-tour-1.1284110
Believe in Heyneke .Goosen would have definately played this year , his form was too good to leave out .Lambie is the current springbok fullback anyway and Steyn wont see out the year as starting 10 . PDV era has left you scarred

As for EOYT i personally think thats when the bulk of the youngsters will get their go along with Goosen

PDV era has left you scarred

never mind scarred, permanently burnt.

I hope Meyer proves to be more than what I think of him currently, he is making the right noises, but then so does a Hyena, until it bites you whilst you sleep.

SARU need to be harsh on players that go off chasing money and not pick them. It sends out the wrong message to the rest of the squad that have decided to stay in SA and not get paid as much as they would if they played in Japan and France.

If the continue to pick the players when they play abroad it will mean more of international players will move abroad and will leave South Africa short of international quality when these players aren't released by their club.

I agree.

I think Japan is different to Europe. If a player goes to a decent HC side then he will be playing high level rugby and its relatively easy to get between Europe & SA. Due to this I wouldn't see too many problems seeing players depart to foreign fields.

If a player goes to Japan however he will be playing sub-standard rugby, travelling to SA will be long and the seasons are completely out of sync.

My view... you can only stop players so far.

If a player has to choose between their families future and their own career I would imagine many would choose the latter. Its not like players get paid badly in SA but compared its nothing and players know this.

Does it hurt the boks that Ruan Pienaar is playing in Europe... well its given his former club the sharks an opportunity to develop players like Charl Macleod.

SA like NZ is always going to produce more players than it can utilise.... remember there are only 5 genuine franchises in SA and players like Moritz Botha couldn't even get into a top tier Currie Cup side before he packed his bags for England.
I doubt that SA will suffer from having some of their best play in Europe. They churn out talent all the time and part of the reason is because their best get picked off before their time leaving gaps in the squad to fill.

Frans Louw moved to Bath this year.... he was replaced by a young kid called Kolisi. No doubt Kolisi would have been in the Vodacom Cup had Louw remained... yet his departure gave an opportunity and he grabbed it. Now he is being talked about as a future bok after only a handful of senior games.

Last year the Stormers had a backrow of Louw, Burger and Vermeulen. Burger is the oldest at 29. He can genuinely play on till the next world cup. If they all stayed at the stormers then I can't many players coming through such is their class.

Ii'm going to steal this paragraph when i'm arguing with people soon . brilliantly put

Frans Louw moved to Bath this year.

He might be regretting that move. If you ask him nicely he might well beg to come back at the end of his contract.

I agree that if players move it opens up a spot in the squad for younger players to develop and it increases the pool of players you have to pick from and in the SH where you have a very organised season when internationals don't overlap with Super XV and you can pick your international players week in week out the only way younger players will gain experience is by one of the internationals picking up an injury. So in that respect players moving abroad is a good thing.

On the other hand though if SA pick players that play in the NH will inevitably be restricted by their NH club in terms of release for training and some games that overlap with the NH season. If these players play for SA they will have trained less with the rest of the squad and only become available after the first test of the June internationals due to the top 14 overlapping. If that player walks straight in to the test team after missing the first game due to chasing money the person that they have taken the place of will feel very harshly treated and it will effect morale in the squad.

To go along with that Aus and the AB's only pick players that play at home so it means there preparation for the rugby Championship will not be effected by players arriving at training camp a week late.

There are both positives and negatives for players moving abroad but in my opinion negatives are greater i the players that move abroad are still picked for their international team.

I respect your point. The Top14 is a bit stupid really in terms of their overlap... even when France tour the SH at the end of their season... usually none of the players in the top 4 sides are available which is madness.

It would be like SA being asked to tour Europe with the Lions.

Its a contract thing really. Many ENG players when negotiating their contracts prior to the RFU ban got release clauses in place and I don't see why it wouldn't still be achievable for players of other nations.... if players like Tom Palmer could secure these assurances there is no doubt the Burgers, Habanas & Hougaards of this world would be able to do the same.

You are right though... there is no definitive answer.

It is very stupid but the french clubs hold so much power over the french union.

Yes if players got a release clause for international commitments in their contracts then there is no real problem apart from the amount of games they play in a season cannot be managed by their home nation. To get a release clause though players would have to sacrifice some of their salary and if they have to sacrifice more than they would get paid by their home union for being in the international squad then they not want the clause.

Its not just French Clubs, recently Saffa clubs have started howling for compensation for their players who go away on Springbok duty . I think its absurd ,getting your players chosen for the NT should be an achievement not a problem .

Your right but as rugby is now business clubs don't want to risk their commodities (players) getting damaged playing for the national team and risk losing them for an extended period of time.

Cardiff blues told players that they won't pay them for the time they are with the national team even though the WRU pay the regions for player release.

But doesnt a player getting a call up increase their value ? Surely when the time comes to sell their player (i actually dont know if this is the case in Rugby ) then they'll be worth more .

In some ways I think the clubs have a point though. SARU does pay part of the elite squads salaries right? That is correct given a club could be paying a player while he is unavailable for selection... the cross over of the Currie Cup & the 4N.

Also there is the insurance issue. If a player gets injured while on test duty its the club which suffers as much as the national side.

SARU does little to develop players, its the clubs which does all the work in reality so SARU shouldn't be free to mess around with their assets without paying for them.

It works both ways though.. if a player does well for the national team the financial benefits via shirt and gate receipts should improve.

Players aren't sold in rugby like they are in football they only move when their contract expires although recently there have been a few players that have had their contracts bought out but again this is still pretty rare.

Having international players in your team though should improve attendance at matches though so clubs should want players to play for their country