Sevens is it a point?

Well a fine tournament for sevens put on by Scotch and again congratulation to new zeeland who now look like unless some bad thing happen to them next week in twickenham will be series champion one more time and making ready for the olympic.

England make there second final for a while but in the end not quite good enough to win.

My question today is so is it so good to have one team dominance so much the tournament?

For a time idea of "choking" new zeealand made world cup some more fun for more teams but in sevens is not so much choking seems.

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The OP makes an interesting point. The IRB world 7s series has been running for 12 years, and NZ has won 9 of them - and next weekend it will almost certainly become 10 from 13.

Fiji, Samoa and South Africa have all won once.

New Zealand uses the sevens series as a development tool - basically Gordon Tietjens selects a couple of 7s specialists, and a bunch of young guys who aren't quite ready for Super Rugby, flogs the living daylights out of them in training (a player's ideal playing weight for 7s is up to 10kg lighter and leaner than he would be playing 15s) and sends them out to play.

Fiji and Samoa (IIRC) select home grown players, while SA and Aus follow NZ's development example.

With 7s debuting at the 2016 Olympics it's going to be interesting to see how various nations approach it. Will top 15s players turn out? How will the UK team look? Will Ireland (who currently don't have a 7s team) try to qualify?

I suppose it depends on the priorities of the varying nations.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Well a fine tournament for sevens put on by Scotch and again congratulation to new zeeland who now look like unless some bad thing happen to them next week in twickenham will be series champion one more time and making ready for the olympic.

England make there second final for a while but in the end not quite good enough to win.

My question today is so is it so good to have one team dominance so much the tournament?

For a time idea of "choking" new zeealand made world cup some more fun for more teams but in sevens is not so much choking seems.

Anotherworldofpain.

It is never good in any sport to have one dominant team. People get tired of watching the same team win. The All Blacks "choking" thing brought extra excitment to the Rugby World Cup I thought.

Lovely reference to a bit of Ogden's nut gone flake there Barney!

I think the All Black dominance of sevens is offset by the whole Cup, plate, vase, shield, napkin ring, blue peter badge competitions. It gives everyone something to play for and keeps the punters interested no matter who wins the main event!

Wales won a 7s world cup...so of course it is very important

In fact, I'd say it is far more important than 15s

First of all, I really enjoyed the 7s (it was literally at the end of my street so it would've been rude not to go!). As to one team dominating - I think Fiji would have something to say about that!

Overall, sevens is a great game and a good party atmosphere, but I don't think many fans take it all that seriously, so in this respect it's fine to have a team that wins a lot. The plate and bowl competitions etc keep it interesting for everyone as all the teams play nearly the same number of games.

In some ways 7s has a far better chance of catching on in other countries simply because you need fewer people too, so maybe it could make an excellent recruitment advert! (They pretty much use it for this as it is I think).

7's bores the pants off me - sorry, just can't get up for it - Circus rugby

I enjoy it - except for the annoying time difference for most of the tournaments.

New Zealand aren't dominating this tournament, nor do they dominate sevens in general. It's pretty even between the top 5 teams. The Sevens this year has actually been quite competitive; and NZ didn't start off as well as they are finishing the series, nowhere near. They got thrashed by Aus and also lost a final to England on home soil.

With that said, I do enjoy Sevens, when Wales are winning. I woud like to see us contract some more professional players to the team. We have a good group of players right now, if we keep them in Sevens they can become a very good team.

Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

What I dont want to see happen in 2016,is some non rugby country treat the Olympics as a project and win medals over the traditional rugby countries,China have gone all out and have recruited New Zealanders to coach their womens sevens team.

I enjoy watching 7s and use to love playing it but from a Welsh POV I would rather the money that went into our 7s side be re-directed in to getting our A Side back up and running

Never taken to 7's.Bit like candy-floss,first bite is nice but then.......

aucklandlaurie wrote: Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

What I dont want to see happen in 2016,is some non rugby country treat the Olympics as a project and win medals over the traditional rugby countries,China have gone all out and have recruited New Zealanders to coach their womens sevens team.

Yes I see your point. United States of America are still olympic rugby champion! I read this and had to checking three times to be sure was not just some joke.

I think 7's might be more popular in pacific because there is more culture around run with the ball in space and better hard ground to run on and more sun to run around in most of the time in my experience, mix with rugby culture. And is some pathway from touch rugby into play the 7's for the very amateur or not so big player.

I am surprise part of me that Australia not so much good all the time, but maybe reflecting there less structure evolution around rugby as my point above. Might be go from run around with the ball straight to rugby laegue which can also play in a way that is not so much heavy contact. Just my mind on that point.

I do think poster who says all balcks not dominating this sport is smoking some heavy weeds because on this sport is surely most successful team maybe in any sporting area.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

Quite popular playing-wise in England. Plus, they have a lot of players and a lot of teams so would naturally be able to produce some good Sevens players. Wales need to catch up. They can start by nicking Glasgow's tourament and hosting it in Cardiff.

To put thing into perspective, the WRU has started rugby festivals between schools at the end of each year, sevens and tens tournaments. These act as feeders for the Regional academies.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

What I dont want to see happen in 2016,is some non rugby country treat the Olympics as a project and win medals over the traditional rugby countries,China have gone all out and have recruited New Zealanders to coach their womens sevens team.

Yes I see your point. United States of America are still olympic rugby champion! I read this and had to checking three times to be sure was not just some joke.

I think 7's might be more popular in pacific because there is more culture around run with the ball in space and better hard ground to run on and more sun to run around in most of the time in my experience, mix with rugby culture. And is some pathway from touch rugby into play the 7's for the very amateur or not so big player.

I am surprise part of me that Australia not so much good all the time, but maybe reflecting there less structure evolution around rugby as my point above. Might be go from run around with the ball straight to rugby laegue which can also play in a way that is not so much heavy contact. Just my mind on that point.

I do think poster who says all balcks not dominating this sport is smoking some heavy weeds because on this sport is surely most successful team maybe in any sporting area.

OZ don't have enough big fast guys, plenty of nimble skillful ones though

gowales wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

What I dont want to see happen in 2016,is some non rugby country treat the Olympics as a project and win medals over the traditional rugby countries,China have gone all out and have recruited New Zealanders to coach their womens sevens team.

Yes I see your point. United States of America are still olympic rugby champion! I read this and had to checking three times to be sure was not just some joke.

I think 7's might be more popular in pacific because there is more culture around run with the ball in space and better hard ground to run on and more sun to run around in most of the time in my experience, mix with rugby culture. And is some pathway from touch rugby into play the 7's for the very amateur or not so big player.

I am surprise part of me that Australia not so much good all the time, but maybe reflecting there less structure evolution around rugby as my point above. Might be go from run around with the ball straight to rugby laegue which can also play in a way that is not so much heavy contact. Just my mind on that point.

I do think poster who says all balcks not dominating this sport is smoking some heavy weeds because on this sport is surely most successful team maybe in any sporting area.

OZ don't have enough big fast guys, plenty of nimble skillful ones though

This is silly statement. Are just as many big fast guys in Australien, like Sterling Mortlock. It's not like is Japan! Maybe they playing the rugby league at top level. But anywy point makes no sense because Wales XV full of big fast mens and still no good at 7!

anotherworldofpain wrote:

gowales wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Sevens appears to be far more popular in the Southern hemisphere than in the Northern,I am not sure why this is,as Wales and England are always competitive and France and Scotland are really the only other teams to turn up to play.

What I dont want to see happen in 2016,is some non rugby country treat the Olympics as a project and win medals over the traditional rugby countries,China have gone all out and have recruited New Zealanders to coach their womens sevens team.

Yes I see your point. United States of America are still olympic rugby champion! I read this and had to checking three times to be sure was not just some joke.

I think 7's might be more popular in pacific because there is more culture around run with the ball in space and better hard ground to run on and more sun to run around in most of the time in my experience, mix with rugby culture. And is some pathway from touch rugby into play the 7's for the very amateur or not so big player.

I am surprise part of me that Australia not so much good all the time, but maybe reflecting there less structure evolution around rugby as my point above. Might be go from run around with the ball straight to rugby laegue which can also play in a way that is not so much heavy contact. Just my mind on that point.

I do think poster who says all balcks not dominating this sport is smoking some heavy weeds because on this sport is surely most successful team maybe in any sporting area.

OZ don't have enough big fast guys, plenty of nimble skillful ones though

This is silly statement. Are just as many big fast guys in Australien, like Sterling Mortlock. It's not like is Japan! Maybe they playing the rugby league at top level. But anywy point makes no sense because Wales XV full of big fast mens and still no good at 7!

Not really OZ do tend to struggle for big physical men, look at their 15's team now all quick skillful guys, they have to pick guys like McCabe in the centre for some size . You're right though they do tend to go to league now, around ten years ago when union was on the up and league decline a lot of leaguies switched, now its the reverse. Wales don't have any big guys in their 7's team, probably why we're Poopie at it, they all go to 15's! Doesn't bother me though, i couldn't care less!

Also look at the best teams in sevens. NZ, Fiji, Samoa, England (big black guys and a Fijian!) and Kenya, what do they all have in common. That's right big, fast blokes. They help a hell of a lot in sevens.

Australia struggles to have big packs, that is a given, that doesn't mean they don't have big physical guys though.

Apart from that the reality is big physical guys aren't going to help much in sevens. It is the middle size, fast athletic guy with lots of basic ball skills, and the ability to sidestep a Boeing.

But if they are big sized, fast athletic guys with good balls skills and a good sidestep like Fiji and NZ have then you can be the best

True, it helps, but not all big guys are athletic, the fijians are just built for this game.

I don't think Wales produce enough Sevens type players to be honest. We have a good few that are good at the 15 mans game, but are also good in 7s and go there to get some experience.

Time was Sevens was a Great event in the Uk with the Gala Sevens in Scotland.
As to people get fedup about the same teams winning?depends when England was king of the roost.It was boring England,when the Boks Thugs,AllBlacks chokers.Mostly it is just down to how you feel about things when I was introduced to Rugby 1953 ,Wales were THE side[Boks aside with 3 wins versus the AllBlacks in 4 attempts.Things change and go around as they say maybe Wales are finally going to do it again this year.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Will Ireland (who currently don't have a 7s team) try to qualify?

They will, but it will be bad for their XV game. The team will by necessity represent the ROI rather than the whole island and so risk undermining the traditional unity of rugby in Ireland.


New Zealand will undoubtedly win gold, but if they win gold at the following two Olympics, the IOC may reconsider the inclusion of Sevens. Having one team as odds on favourites and only two or three other teams capable of beating them isn't good for the whole Olympic ethos.

You never know, NZ might choke again like they did in the world cup. Fiji, Samoa and England will be the main challengers, let's hope they can deliver. Although Wales could be a wild card again

Eh, any team can win on the day. NZ have won every commonwealth gold but with people taking it more seriously in the Olympics with slightly improved squads with 15 a side players involved, I think any of 5-6 nations could win, plus the other medals are very up for grabs. I don't think New Zealand are much less dominant in 15s and if we exclude Olympic sports on the basis of dominance over a few Olympics, then basketball would have been dropped as would swimming etc.

Plus 2/the last 3 seasons were won by teams other than NZ

ChequeredJersey wrote:Plus 2/the last 3 seasons were won by teams other than NZ

Did you miss 2011-2012 is NZ, 2010-2011 NZ so is only 1 of last 3 season when Samoa win it.

But if you thinking that 10/13 world series wins and win all the commonwealth medals is not dominate the sport then you can make a club on your own that thinking this way.

Technically 2011-12 isn't over so it is a current season not last

And the more key issue isn't that o don't think NZ are dominant in 7s, it's that-

In terms of comparison to 15s, I think the ABs have been dominant there too, just bad at winning world cups

In terms of the Olympics, as NZ demonstrated in recent years in RWCs, dominance across an era doesn't guarantee that they'll dominate the quadrannual competition and plenty of teams have proven they can beat NZ in a one off match in the final

In terms of not bothering with a sport because one team or individual is perceived to be dominant, the dominance does not detract from the worth of the sport- is men's swimming worthless and should be dropped? Men's tennis in the Federer/Fedal years? Basketball? Sprinting now? No. It doesn't matter of NZ are dominant. For me it has no relevance as they have not always been dominant ergo the time will arrive when they are not any more and the rest of us will just have to man up, wait for it and win when we get the chance

Adam D wrote:Can I just say that the way you are treating this poster is disgraceful.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Obviously English isnt his first language but at least he is trying to post something worthwhile.

Do you honestly believe he isnt yet another incarnation of a serial pretender?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Adam D wrote:Can I just say that the way you are treating this poster is disgraceful.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Obviously English isnt his first language but at least he is trying to post something worthwhile.

Do you honestly believe he isnt yet another incarnation of a serial pretender?

Innocent until proven guilty PSB.

Plus whether he is a reincarnation or not doesn't detract from the fact that this thread is interesting and worth discussing

ChequeredJersey wrote:Technically 2011-12 isn't over so it is a current season not last

I take your other one point. But 2011-2012 series finish last weekend.

Reincarnation is against the principle believes in my religion so I am certain I live first and last time, this one.

Isnt Scotland after the London 7s? It usually is, isn't it?

No, was two weeks ago in Glasqouw.

I don´t know Chequered, you can isolate games in both sevens and 15s but it's hard to look past 10 out of 13 world series wins. We didn't have that dominance in the 3N and that's more or less a comfortable annual yardstick to measure them both against as we've been dominant in the Autumn Internationals. There are more competitive teams in sevens than in 15s and you are susceptible to random events like a bounce of the ball or run against the play because there are fewer players and there is a lot less time.

So taking that into account, I think NZ is significantly more dominant in sevens than in 15s which is not to say that NZ is completely dominant in sevens as they lose probably more games than their 15s counterparts but they take more trophies as well. We see sevens as a sport in its own but we also see it in a wider 15s perspective in terms of development and getting 15s players back into form. That said, 15s is clearly the priority and pinnacle of the rugby tree and Super rugby, age-group rugby, provincial and club are all tributaries that flow upwards into the estuary of AB rugby. Sorry for mixing my metaphors but this kid anotherworldofpain gets my creative juices flowing. Good on ya mate!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Plus whether he is a reincarnation or not doesn't detract from the fact that this thread is interesting and worth discussing

Yeah no question, I will happily respond sensibly when the poster has something worth saying that isnt just the usual wumming.

I agree its daft to have a go at the spelling, mines just as bad and it can be excussed if he actually is a non engrish speaker. If he is a joke then poking fun at that is just falling for the troll.



So Sevens...noone really takes it that seriously do they. Its a fun side show.
Many Olympic events are BS versions of the proper thing, with many (especially the professional ones) not having the best players involved. Thats just the Olympics, its more about the event and control of sports than it is the actual games themselves.
In terms of competitiveness one of the big pluses for Rugby is that there are a large number of nations in with a chance of a medal, compared to a lot of events theres a good chance it wont be just the usual suspects. Sure theres an overwhelming favourite for the gold, but theres a dozen nations in with a good shot for a top 3. And how many other medals will New Zealand, Samoa, and Fiji be in contention for?

New Zealand are generally doing well in Watersports like Sailing and Rowing too, but Fiji and Samoa will definitely be happy for the chance to win some more medals

ChequeredJersey wrote:New Zealand are generally doing well in Watersports like Sailing and Rowing too, but Fiji and Samoa will definitely be happy for the chance to win some more medals

Us Kiwis tend to look at the "Medals per Capita" table above our weight ...

(ps, thanks Team GB for pinching so many of the Aussies' medals in Beijing)

No problem, we'll pinch Aussie medals anytime.

Murray and Bond are nailed on golds in the pair for me, can't see them being overhauled!

ChequeredJersey wrote:No problem, we'll pinch Aussie medals anytime.

Murray and Bond are nailed on golds in the pair for me, can't see them being overhauled!

Your triathletes seem to be shading ours at the moment too.

Murray and Bond are yours mate, they've been kings of the men's coxless pair since 2009

ChequeredJersey wrote:Murray and Bond are yours mate, they've been kings of the men's coxless pair since 2009

6 years in the UK is clearly addling my brain

Don't wish away Gold-medal prospects. We'll take them if you don't want them though

Valerie Adams for Shot Put.

Andrea Hewett has a better chance in the triathlete women than in the men's where the Brownlee bros are class.

Mark Todd's top horse has gone for the three day eventing but if anyone can win on a young horse it´s him.

Usually board sailing is our best medal chance in sailing. We never seem to do well for a country in Olympic sailing with so many good pro sailors.

Rowing has a few chances and track cycling is possible as well although that was dominated by GB last Olympics.

Put in the sevens and I think we'd be disappointed if we didn't get 4 gold medals at least. 1 per million people. Let´s see if GB can get 60.