Disparity in leagues...! Should the unions endeavour to make things equal...?

In every league, in every country there is a team or teams that are weaker than the rest. The best teams are nearly always found at the top of the pile, below them is a group that just never seem to be able to break in to the elite.

In Wales, the Dragons never struggle in derby matches, but are lucky to ever get out of the bottom group in the league, or to qualify in knock out comps, they lose players and staff abroad and to other Welsh regions unlike the others.

In Ireland Connacht are in a similar situation, in the AP I think only three clubs made profit this year but there are four clubs set apart from the rest.

The National Unions could, if they wished, help bolster the lesser clubs, regions, provinces. Thus making the league all the more competitive. This would make playing conditions tougher for players at all clubs, improve the competitiveness throughout the league and maybe make the product better to watch, maybe therefor earning the game more money.

There are a number of ways the unions or other governing bodies could intervene. They could restrict certain clubs from buying expensive foreigners, while allowing others to do as they wished? They could re-adjust the way money is distributed, those struggling to receive more than those making profit? Players could be contracted to unions and dished out to clubs in a manner that unions thought created an even playing field in a type of draft system.

What are your thoughts...?

The IRFU are already hard working to bring Connacht up to scratch. They are heavily subsidised and allowed additional project players beyond the NIE overseas quotas.

Connacht are disadvantaged in that they are not in a traditional rugby area and the population is smaller and less concentrated than the other provinces but they have made huge improvments in recent seasons.

The IRFU are working hard...???

They are compensating poorly, and just do enough to keep Connacht afloat so Munster and Leinster can keep developing players there.

In England there is more dynamism amid movement of clubs.

Look at Harlequins, Northampton who were recently promoted & now flying. Exeter this season.
The demise of my team Wasps this season - through injuries & off field disruption but I believe we will be back up competing with the best in a season or two because we have some great young players brought through and solid (hopefully) backers.

I would agree Wales & Ireland have constant weaker clubs. The Welsh situation may well change depending on the shake out from the recent enquiry into finances.

The clubs involved in the Championship is a separate argument I believe.

I can see where you are coming from. In an ideal world a competition where everyone is on an equal standing with regards to quality would be brilliant. However, that would lead to a rather boring league IMO where teams would be expected to win their home games and the league would ultimately be desided by losing bonus points away and winning bonus points at home.

Also with regrads funding, only the Rabo nations could realistically do this, as we are the only nations where we are certain of what teams are going to be in the league, as the Jeff has promotion etc so to give extra funding to lower Jeff sides over higher ones would disadvantage any teams in the championship looking for promotion.

Whilst I agree that Connacht are the poor relatives of the Irish system and do understand the idea of giving them extra help. I can not agree that the Dragons relly deserve any more than the others. After all the Dragons recieve the same amount of funding as the other regions (and I believe winning money from tournaments is evenly distributed too), so to give them extra cash for failing to achive would be insulting to the other regions. Also the Dragons have not always been the worst of the regions, and they have finished in a better postion than the Scarlets (once) and the Blues (two or three times) in the past.

I don't think that in England it is a problem other then Leeds and Newcastle seemed to be poor but everyone else will be looking to the top half of the table. Wasps had alot of injuries, and money issues. Wus may be near the bottom next year but are compeditive

In the Rabo only Aroini and Edinbrugh were poor. Treviso, Dragons and Connacht were compeditive and could close the gap next year as they improve (except maybe Dragons)

On Connacht they are keeping more players and getting better players so they will improve. With the big three having good depth I think Connacht will keep going up. They are improving for the very reasons that you stated.

Dragons will always struggle to keep players as they can't pay as much and it isn't the same as moving from dragons to Bath/Exeter/Glaws as it is for the irish to move abroad

The french have a big gap at the bottom, as as once big teams that were is trouble (due to injured players) they quickly moved up and out of problems. The same would not be said if it happened in the Rabo or Aviva

thebluesmancometh wrote:The IRFU are working hard...???

They are compensating poorly, and just do enough to keep Connacht afloat so Munster and Leinster can keep developing players there.

That assessment is 3/4 years out of date.

Connacht are on the up - doubled there crowds in the Pro 12 this year.
The standard of the squad is on the rise.
They now need to develop the grass roots to match the other three provinces.

thebluesmancometh wrote:They are compensating poorly, and just do enough to keep Connacht afloat so Munster and Leinster can keep developing players there.

Out of interest how many players who play for Connacht actually started out in one of the other provincial accademies? I thought that Connacht tended to get hold of the kids from other provinces, and made the most of them before the players got to the point they wanted to go chasing after HEC/Rabo titles.

Connacht will have 3 ex Ulster players next year - although this is a comparitively recent development.

At a guess Faloon will be a starter
McCrea could be a bench player (terrible luck with injuries this year)
Anderson is a squad player

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I can see where you are coming from. In an ideal world a competition where everyone is on an equal standing with regards to quality would be brilliant. However, that would lead to a rather boring league IMO where teams would be expected to win their home games and the league would ultimately be desided by losing bonus points away and winning bonus points at home.

I see that as an interesting point. If all are too equal then there are few surprises...

I think guys like O'Hallaran and Griffin have come through the Connacht academy right? Two really exciting players.

Then you have stalwarts like Gavin Duffy, Mike McCarthy, Muldoon etc there who are in and around the Irish squad on merit.

The improvement they've made under Elwood is remarkable. They are always going to be limited by their resources but they are getting stronger every season.

Their attendances are going up aswell which was always key. If they can keep improving me might see them get out 6-7k on average

They'll be in the HEC again too which will help them bring in crowds and revenue.

I think now is a great time to be a Connacht fan.

Mike Forshaw deserves a lot of credit too, their defence is phenomenal. Amazing team spirit too and they are playing a good brand of attacking rugby.

Great to see .

Just how good is Eric Elwood, he really does do some very good things on a shoe string budget.

Connacht are improving and are getting more and more popular as is seen in the increase of their attencances. I am usually highly critical of the IRFU but they have done well for Connacht.

I don't mind supporting the underdogs.

What I don't like is players leaving our region for other Welsh regions who are supposedly 'skint' or because they think they'll get into the Welsh setup.

I wouldn't be looking for a recipe for equalisation of Jeff teams. What is really needed in a system where relegation is a fact of life is true support for the lower league so that the relegation/promotion battles are meaningful. Clubs have to be entirely responsible for their performance both financially and on the pitch. Even if a franchise system were in place the lower league would still need this support to improve their competitiveness and prospects of promotion at whatever revue period applied. If it were possible I would like to see play offs dumped and a knockout challenge cup series with fixtures drawn at random from both leagues. I would also like to see Championship sides required to declare a wish/intention of seeking development for promotion, as some would never have ambitions beyond that league. The RFU could then put resources behind the clubs seeking this.

God no,look at the American sporting franchises to see what this does.The worse teams get the pick of the best young players and this encourages better competition.
What actually happens is the rich teams pick off the younger players when they've proven themselves as capable in the league and you can have a team full of players with no affiliation to their club,,city or state.It's a recipe for turning players into journeymen mercenaries and any attempt to equalise things would have similar consequences here.

Plenty of reasons against, anyone got a reason for... Drafting has obvious flaws. Even though the intent is a generous one.

aitchw wrote:I wouldn't be looking for a recipe for equalisation of Jeff teams. What is really needed in a system where relegation is a fact of life is true support for the lower league so that the relegation/promotion battles are meaningful. Clubs have to be entirely responsible for their performance both financially and on the pitch. Even if a franchise system were in place the lower league would still need this support to improve their competitiveness and prospects of promotion at whatever revue period applied. If it were possible I would like to see play offs dumped and a knockout challenge cup series with fixtures drawn at random from both leagues. I would also like to see Championship sides required to declare a wish/intention of seeking development for promotion, as some would never have ambitions beyond that league. The RFU could then put resources behind the clubs seeking this.

The AP has a pretty decent difference between top and bottom, as in most leagues, genuine relegation might instil less security, but aiding the lower placed clubs and those trying to get promotion would make the system more competitive.

maesteg, I think we are pretty much agreed on the substance. England is very different from the Rabo unions and needs different structures. What is essential is that those involved with aspirations are given the opportunity. If handled right I genuinely believe the Championship could be a very good league.

Drafting will never work in Europe.

Say, I am brought up in London, all my friends are in London, I love living in London and then say, Sale, get me in the draft.

I think my attitude woudl be stuff Sale I am staying in London.
If I have to leave I'll decide who to play for not some drafting system.

geoff998rugby wrote:Drafting will never work in Europe.

Say, I am brought up in London, all my friends are in London, I love living in London and then say, Sale, get me in the draft.

I think my attitude woudl be stuff Sale I am staying in London.
If I have to leave I'll decide who to play for not some drafting system.

That is the arguement I always use. Especially withing regional/provincial setups, where a young player is being brought through the system and probably has a goal of representing their home region/province.

maestegmafia wrote:

aitchw wrote:I wouldn't be looking for a recipe for equalisation of Jeff teams. What is really needed in a system where relegation is a fact of life is true support for the lower league so that the relegation/promotion battles are meaningful. Clubs have to be entirely responsible for their performance both financially and on the pitch. Even if a franchise system were in place the lower league would still need this support to improve their competitiveness and prospects of promotion at whatever revue period applied. If it were possible I would like to see play offs dumped and a knockout challenge cup series with fixtures drawn at random from both leagues. I would also like to see Championship sides required to declare a wish/intention of seeking development for promotion, as some would never have ambitions beyond that league. The RFU could then put resources behind the clubs seeking this.

The AP has a pretty decent difference between top and bottom, as in most leagues, genuine relegation might instil less security, but aiding the lower placed clubs and those trying to get promotion would make the system more competitive.

I can't think of a single way that the PRL hasn't bent over backwards to ensure that the lower clubs are compensated at the expense of their leading sides' contribution to England, to do nothing to minimise Jeff games during IWs, to impose wage caps, to impose entry standards to the league which incumbents can't meet, cont'd p94.

Code:

to ensure the lower clubs are compensated at the expense of their leading sides' contribution to England

And so they should be - for if it wasn't for the 'lower' clubs, where would the 'leading' clubs get their England stars?

Is YOUR club totally home grown?

In Ulster case not totally but of a squad of 40 players next year - 34 full professionals and 6 development contract the breakdown is likely to be

30 Ulster born
2 Irish by parents - Fitzpatrick, Tuohy
2 Irish by Grandparents - Court, D'Arcy
1 Irish by Residency - Diack
1 Going through the Residency Procedure - Payne
3 NIQ - Pienaer, Afoa, Muller
1 Unknown

Not a bad return I'd say

geoff998rugby wrote:In Ulster case not totally but of a squad of 40 players next year - 34 full professionals and 6 development contract the breakdown is likely to be

30 Ulster born
2 Irish by parents - Fitzpatrick, Tuohy
2 Irish by Grandparents - Court, D'Arcy
1 Irish by Residency - Diack
1 Going through the Residency Procedure - Payne
3 NIQ - Pienaer, Afoa, Muller
1 Unknown

Not a bad return I'd say

I'm not sure that residency rules are pertinent to this debate.

I thought that we were discussing

Disparity in leagues...! Should the unions endeavour to make things equal...?

Portnoy TrailApe asked a question and I answered.

It is pertinent because the point he was making, I believe, was to what extent that locally nutured players contributed to the strength of the side. This is very relevant to any concept of 'equality' as some clubs/regions/provinces base their strength on locally nutured players i.e. Connacht currently cannot match the other three 3 Irish provinces.
This creates an inbuilt inequality which you cannot disregard.

So as a self appointed Topic policeman you fail

rodders wrote:The IRFU are already hard working to bring Connacht up to scratch. They are heavily subsidised and allowed additional project players beyond the NIE overseas quotas.

Connacht are disadvantaged in that they are not in a traditional rugby area and the population is smaller and less concentrated than the other provinces but they have made huge improvments in recent seasons.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The IRFU are working hard...???

They are compensating poorly, and just do enough to keep Connacht afloat so Munster and Leinster can keep developing players there.

The truth is between the two. Munster and Leinster certainly take advantage of Connacht but rarely, if ever, do players move when they are in contract between the provinces. Niall O'Connor to Ulster is a possible exception, and even that follows the signing of Dan Parks to replace him out West.

The truth is, players move clubs and when their contract is up it's their decision. Moving on when you've fulfilled your contractual obligations is no shame. Players often join Connacht with the intention of making a name for themselves and moving on to one of the other Irish provinces; Connacht benefit from this as well. They get quality players they wouldn't otherwise produce.

The IRFU are investing increasing amounts in Connacht Rugby but you can't just throw money at a problem i.e. funding has been given to upgrade the stadium and to market the team but the upgrades can't exceed demand. Money can be given for wages, but it has to be in line with what Connacht can reasonably be expected to return on that investment in terms of prize money. The best thing is to slowly increase funding to Connacht as they become hopefully more and more competitive.

It's worth noting that NIQ restrictions do not apply to Connacht, possibly because the IRFU recognises it's a struggle for them to retain players and their Academy is less productive. I think for Conancht to grow the funding should go the grassroots as much as the professional operation; only way they can narrow the gap is to increase the number of schools playing rugby, increase the playing numbers in the club game and start seeing some new clubs establish themselves and to invest in the Academy.

geoff998rugby wrote:Portnoy TrailApe asked a question and I answered.

It is pertinent because the point he was making, I believe, was to what extent that locally nutured players contributed to the strength of the side. This is very relevant to any concept of 'equality' as some clubs/regions/provinces base their strength on locally nutured players i.e. Connacht currently cannot match the other three 3 Irish provinces.
This creates an inbuilt inequality which you cannot disregard.

So as a self appointed Topic policeman you fail

+1

Portnoys, why do you constantly jump on posters backs when their contributions are related to the topic at hand?

I don't Notch. What has local representation of clubs/sides to do with disparate Leagues making things equal?

As of this year Connacht supposedly got the same funding from the IRFU at last that they gave to the other provinces and they have a coaching team now (rather than a coach). Of course the attendances mean that they will have less money over all still compared to the rest but the IRFU have exempted Connacht from the limits on foreign players so they have one advantage to work with. This is something that I read about a long time ago but I may dig up the article again if I have time.

I have explained the relevance of locally born players to ther issue in hand Portnoy - your problem if you cant grasp it

Because when the number of foreign players you can have is limited and other native Irish players are reluctant to play outside their home province if they have a choice any amount of funding differences won't make a difference if you don't have a good Academy structure to fall back upon.

So it's actually very relevant as far as the Pro12 is concerned.