Should the Cawnish Pirates forfeit the play off final for the good of rugby?

This is probably something you don't want to be reading up on Tyneside...

This whole "eligibility criteria" for the Premiership is just elitism tosh if you ask me. At present only London Welsh MAY be eligible to play in the Aviva Prem IF their proposed move to Oxford's Alakazzam Stadium is approved by the powers that be.

If the Cornish Pirates win, nothing happens. They still play in the Championship next season and Newcastle avoid relegation.

None of this makes sense.

Both teams should have a chance at the next league, they've earned it by having a good season and getting to the playoff final.

For the good of rugby I think the Pirates should play "below par" to allow a new face into the Premiership.

Surely not fair on Bristol who were the best team all season.

kingjohn7 wrote:Surely not fair on Bristol who were the best team all season.

You could say the same if the Ospreys beat Leinster or if Harlequins lose in the Prem final.

What I'm proposing wouldn't change anything as far as Bristol is concerned as they played poor in the playoff semi's.

??? no, u are saying that pirates wont go up so should allow L Welsh to win. But the Pirates prevented Bristol from getting to the final. Why should they throw the game against LW but not Bristol?
Sorry i only woken up so being a bit dim, u obviously just taking the urine anyway.

I agree with KingJohn, if anyone deserves to go up its Bristol.


Has something similair not happened to a Welsh club, walked away with the title yet refused promotion by the WRFU for not fulfilling certain criteria?

Playing to lose will not endear the Cornish Pirates to anybody and the accusations of match fixing would be damaging. Let the best team win and see about the rest afterwards.

You could say the same if the Ospreys beat Leinster or if Harlequins lose in the Prem final.

Quins only finished top because they had a 6 game head start due to having barely any players at the RWC whilst their main rivals all had roughly 10 players missing. Even with that initial advantage they needed the help of a Sale A Team in the final game in order to guarentee their position at the top of the table.

Absolutely awful suggestion. Whether you agree with promotion/relegation, the whole criteria nonsense, etc., nobody in their right mind would condone the Pirates chucking the championship final playoff - if London Welsh can't win a competition for which the rules were known pre-season, then there is no way in which they deserve the benefit of the equivalent of a bye

That's the equivalent of saying three quarters of a country's sides automatically qualify for the HC without trying their best all season.


Hold on...............

What I'm proposing wouldn't change anything as far as Bristol is concerned as they played poor in the playoff semi's.

Idris, Bristol suffered a 10 minute brain fart in their 1st semi and blew all the work of a season. Apart from that they were comfortably the best side in the Championship and should be the promoted side.

As for the OP, no, Pirates shouldn't throw the game for any reason imaginable, no team ever should. The rules are what they are and if Welsh are up to it then let them prove it. The changes in next year's play offs is no solution as far as I am concerned, the top team should win automatic promotion but more should be done to support the league and it's teams to reduce these meaningless outcomes.

Absolutely not for two reasons.

1) They played to their best.v Bristol...so should play their best v LW

2) Im a falcon fan....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely not for two reasons.

1) They played to their best.v Bristol...so should play their best v LW

2) Im a falcon fan....

2 fine reasons, Geordie

A team that finished 14 points behind the league leaders should be promoted for the 'good' of rugby? Anyway, the only reason you care at all is because they are nominally Welsh...

Cumbrian wrote:A team that finished 14 points behind the league leaders should be promoted for the 'good' of rugby? Anyway, the only reason you care at all is because they are nominally Welsh...

Nah, he only cares because he can have a dig at English rugby.

Any way Pirates should go out to win - as they want the trophy. Also as London Welsh are far more interested in the compensation they would seek for being denied promotion rather than actually being promoted, as shown by failing to state where they planned to play next season when putting in their application form, I hope the club's blazers get what they deserve. Nothing.

Maybe they should take a leaf out the welsh premierships book and give all clubs a fair and equal chance of promotion, ie none.

If you cant understand the reasons why top leagues set minimum criteria for clubs to be accepted youre living in a fantasy world. Its perfectly normal in professional sports, and a compromise which helps stave off the inevitable ring fencing and franchising which will happen sooner or later ...systems which reward the prize for winning the clubs on their investment and viability rather than on their short term playing ability.

The prize for winning the playoffs is a trophy and some glory. Premiership status is a separate issue, one some clubs in the championship have actively tried to avoid at times.

Peter, it's the inconsistencies that wrankle and the lack of development assistance for aspiring Championship clubs. As I understand it there are Jeff clubs that don't meet them and haven't for some time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6659109.stm

Oh dear! Don't you just love the smell of irony in the evening?!

As much as I want London Welsh to win and be in the premiership it would certainly highlight the ridiculous situation if as I expect Cornish Pirates win and are denied the right to play in the top flight.

Pirates currently have a capacity of 4000. This is no where near enough to be sustainable in the premiership. Rather than Pirates coming up and getting destroyed or getting massively in debt to compete they need to develop their ground. Which they're trying to do. Nothing ridiculous about it.

HammerofThunor wrote:Pirates currently have a capacity of 4000. This is no where near enough to be sustainable in the premiership. Rather than Pirates coming up and getting destroyed or getting massively in debt to compete they need to develop their ground. Which they're trying to do. Nothing ridiculous about it.

Fair point, however London Welsh havent developed old deer park have they? they are just moving into someone elses.
Any club in london or the midlands could potentially do this.

I think the ~English premiership rules are unrealistic, so few teams can make the premiership, and lets be honest rugby isnt going to attract the fans that football does, 4,000-5,000 stadium are more than enough.

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&Code=8217249&statType=home_Att

If you think a max capacity of 4000 is enough look at those average attendances. Granted the figures for Saracens, Harlequins and London Irish are skewed by one-off massive crowds, but despite this the average attendance for the league is in excess of 10000.

The irony of the OP makes me chuckle. The system is flawed but this is not a solution. Even if London Welsh win I think it unlikely they'll go up. If they do they'll be straight down with a record low points total. Sustainable gradual growth is the only way to do it. A side like the Pirates could do well if the ambition is there to expand the Menaye and look to emulate their neighbours' model.

AlynDavies wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Pirates currently have a capacity of 4000. This is no where near enough to be sustainable in the premiership. Rather than Pirates coming up and getting destroyed or getting massively in debt to compete they need to develop their ground. Which they're trying to do. Nothing ridiculous about it.

Fair point, however London Welsh havent developed old deer park have they? they are just moving into someone elses.
Any club in london or the midlands could potentially do this.

I think the ~English premiership rules are unrealistic, so few teams can make the premiership, and lets be honest rugby isnt going to attract the fans that football does, 4,000-5,000 stadium are more than enough.

For the Ospreys maybe, but try telling that to the average attendance figures in the premiership. Its totally unrealistic to expect a club to be able to compete with a sustainable financial model when theres clubs getting 10,000 plus crowds and losing money as it is. If Cornwall cant sustain a club, why should it have one any more than the Silly Isles?

I cant see whats unrealistic about rules that didnt stop Exeter gaining promotion, staying profitable, and reaching the top half of the Jeff whilst still making sure supporters have somewhere to wee.

jeffwinger wrote:http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&Code=8217249&statType=home_Att

If you think a max capacity of 4000 is enough look at those average attendances. Granted the figures for Saracens, Harlequins and London Irish are skewed by one-off massive crowds, but despite this the average attendance for the league is in excess of 10000.

The irony of the OP makes me chuckle. The system is flawed but this is not a solution. Even if London Welsh win I think it unlikely they'll go up. If they do they'll be straight down with a record low points total. Sustainable gradual growth is the only way to do it. A side like the Pirates could do well if the ambition is there to expand the Menaye and look to emulate their neighbours' model.

Looking at those stats only one club had a lowest attendance that would fit in a 4,000-seater stadium, and even there average attendance was over 5,000.

This isn't the promotion play-off final. This is the Championship Play-off Final, with the winner winning the RFU Championship. Then, subject to conditions, the Championship winner will be promoted. It would be an absolute travesty for rugby if Cornish Pirates either pulled out now or worse "took a dive".

as a london welsh fan no. and here's more. i want LW to lose. I don't want to see the team I've supported since a child move to Oxford. It's rather sad for me, but I'd rather have my team playing Championship rugby and remaining at home rather than playing higher level in a different land.

as a london welsh fan no. and here's more. i want LW to lose. I don't want to see the team I've supported since a child move to Oxford. It's rather sad for me, but I'd rather have my team playing Championship rugby and remaining at home rather than playing higher level in a different land..

There speaks a true fan.

If the LW Chairman Bleddyn Phillips really wants to play in the Premiership he's got to realise that the fans have to be able to support their side, and instead of running off and ground sharing in pastures new, should really try and develop the current site - or if this is not possible - somewhere close by.

Look at the current predicament of Wasps, they have (it seems to me) moved their grounds more times than a Bedouin moves his tent, and I think this is a real factor in their current demise. It will be interesting if Cornish Pirates win, and thus no side due to go up, (therefore nobody goes down) whether wasps announce bankruptcy.

Ground sharing is not the easy answer it seems, because you then have to dicker about what sponsors/adverts appear in the grounds and also if the Broadcasters want you to change your schedule (this does happen as the season progresses and match ups take on new significances) and you cannot because your host won't agree then you may find yourself in contractual trouble.

I wish LW well, as a Falcons fan I'm resigned to Championship rugby nexr season, but I don't thing their administration is going the right way about going for promotion, something about their efforts seem a bit ferenetic and very last minute. A cynic might think they are building themselves up as a 'victim' and are about to create merry hell with the headsheds in the RFU and Premiership.

The Chiefs and Warriors have proved it is possible, but there's more in it than just having a good squad, its about the facilities behind it.

i didnt realise the proposed move was to Oxford, thats ridiculous and frankly quite sad if it happens.

TrailApe...
Wasps are a good example for more reasons than that.

The capacity at Adams Park is about 10,000, but we don't often sell it out.
This may well be due to us moving location so many times that we don't have a 'local' following.

Along with the fact that we don't own the stadium means that we don't generate sufficient revenue to keep ourselves profitable, whilst still trying to compete in the league.


A Championship club with a 4,000 - 5,000 seater stadium, which they don't own, will have the same problem on an even bigger scale.
As such, promotion to the Jeff for clubs with small stadiums, will quite likely to very detrimental to their future.

wasps wrote:TrailApe...
Wasps are a good example for more reasons than that.

The capacity at Adams Park is about 10,000, but we don't often sell it out.
This may well be due to us moving location so many times that we don't have a 'local' following.

Along with the fact that we don't own the stadium means that we don't generate sufficient revenue to keep ourselves profitable, whilst still trying to compete in the league.


A Championship club with a 4,000 - 5,000 seater stadium, which they don't own, will have the same problem on an even bigger scale.
As such, promotion to the Jeff for clubs with small stadiums, will quite likely to very detrimental to their future.

Not to mention that Adams Park is a right pain to get to, wasps

Not to mention that Adams Park is a right pain to get to, wasps .

So I have heard. It's a bloody shame that Wasps are in the position that they are.

Fans must come first, they are the beating heart of a team (sounds corny, but I thing its true) and if you are putting obstacles in the way of people getting to a game by adding distance or complexity to the journey, then you have got to wonder what the hell the people in charge are doing.

Oxfords about 50 miles away from LW's current ground, now that's no big deal for other parts of the country, but in the congested SE that's going to be a real factor in getting folks in - unless of course there is about 5000-7000 welsh folk that like rugby in the Oxford area.

Even if there are, it's still a slap in the face to the existing fans isn't it.

TrailApe wrote: unless of course there is about 5000-7000 welsh folk that like rugby in the Oxford area.

[joke]I dont think the entry standards have slipped that much at Oxford (sorry Biltong)[/joke]

Its not like its hard for people in that region to access premiership rugby already if they are that desperate to go and dont care which team they latch onto. OK theres a big population of toffs who will have gone to rugger schools in Oxford but it doesnt strike as any more likely to be a success than Wasps move to Wycombe.