Championship play-off final 2nd Leg

Championship final: Bristol v London Welsh (8-27 agg)

Venue: Memorial Stadium

Wednesday, 4 June

Kick-off: 19:45


Can Brizzle bounce back?

I can't see them doing it, so I guess the next question is can Oxford Welsh stay up next season?

Welsh are stuffing Bristol up front and Bristol have nothing else. Welsh have a much better kicking game which is commanding the territory. Bristol are in big trouble if they concede anymore points.

Fair spanking for Brizzle - couldn't adapt to the conditions at all, Welsh content to use forward power and play smart territory - fair play

London Welsh scored an absolute cracker in the first half. Top drawer counter-attacking try. 99% of the time it doesn't stick or come off but yeah, wonderful try. Other than that Welsh were just better up front and Bristol need something pretty special because they were completely outplayed.

19 pts down is a big ask for Bristol

Get in there Welsh!

If Bristol don't get promoted they will have assembled some team for another championship season! Lucky for them there's no cap...

Only half time though so they might be able to turn it around, should be a good second game I think.

I thought LW let them off the hook in the last quarter. They should have gone for the kill when on the line.

Their new signings for next season must be feeling a little sick tonight after watching that match.

Wow all those big signings too - is the return televised could be worth watching

Yes, next Wed

Cheers

Well that was a kick in the pants - Fair play to Welsh played the conditions far better than Bris.

It'll be an interesting reception at KP if London Welsh get promoted.

Bet Bristol wished they didn't play Ryan Jones till next season now...

Still think there should not be a play off. Britsol were the best team . They should be going up.

This happened to them a few years ago aswell.

It needs to be scrapped!

If they can't beat a team ranked lower than them in the 2nd div despite their huge spending power what hope would they have in the Aviva ?

geoff998rugby wrote:Wow all those big signings too - is the return televised could be worth watching

19:30, on Sky Sports 1, Geoff (Kick off 19:45)

I bet Dean Ryan was pretty hacked off with that result! Welsh are a canny enough team to defend a 19 point lead (famous last words), so I'm sure the thought of facing the Bristol side next season isn't filling Wuss with joy!

The LW forwards absolutely mullered Bristol, should have put more points on them.

I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

PenfroPete wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Wow all those big signings too - is the return televised could be worth watching

19:30, on Sky Sports 1, Geoff (Kick off 19:45)

Double cheers - wife out for the evening as well - happy days.

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

I'd have relegated all three as they make the bottom of the league look untidy..

    

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

Effy, think about it this way - there's a set of rules, known to all participants, and firmly established before the season begins - a smart team plays to deliver against those rules, rather than top a league that brings no accolade whatsoever. Who is to say that the team that finished second in the league wasn't holding something back for the playoffs as winning the final is the ultimate prize?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

Effy, think about it this way - there's a set of rules, known to all participants, and firmly established before the season begins - a smart team plays to deliver against those rules, rather than top a league that brings no accolade whatsoever.  Who is to say that the team that finished second in the league wasn't holding something back for the playoffs as winning the final is the ultimate prize?

Are you honestly saying that LW didn't try and beat Bristol during the league stages? Besides, if we did away with the playoffs in the championship then we would be encouraging the championship teams to be consistent performers, which as to my original point, would make them more competitive in the premiership.

There's no clear knockout game in a relegation battle. Sometimes one emerges, but not always and it's more circumstantial / inevitable.

I'd like to see a "two up two down" format personally - Championship winners go up as of right and the next three plus the second from bottom Jeff side play off for the last sport.

Ineffable wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

Effy, think about it this way - there's a set of rules, known to all participants, and firmly established before the season begins - a smart team plays to deliver against those rules, rather than top a league that brings no accolade whatsoever.  Who is to say that the team that finished second in the league wasn't holding something back for the playoffs as winning the final is the ultimate prize?

Are you honestly saying that LW didn't try and beat Bristol during the league stages? Besides, if we did away with the playoffs in the championship then we would be encouraging the championship teams to be consistent performers, which as to my original point, would make them more competitive in the premiership.

There's no clear knockout game in a relegation battle. Sometimes one emerges, but not always and it's more circumstantial / inevitable.

Effy, of course they did,

So they finished with the same number of wins and losses, with the difference between first and second being the number of bonus points each achieved:

Team      Played Won Drawn Lost For Against Bonus Pts Points
1 Bristol: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, points for - 786, points against - 505, bonus points - 21, table points - 96
2 London Welsh: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, for - 724, against - 348, bonus - 12, table - 88

As for head-to-heads, back in Nov LW beat Bristol 22-7 at the Kassam, while in April, Bristol took the honours 25-21 at the Mem, an aggregate score in favour of London Welsh as it happens.

Which team has been more consistent?

I know for a fact that the year Exeter pulled a similar trick on Bristol to win the Championship and secure promotion, we put in what amounted to a pre-season-esque period of strength and conditioning training around Christmas that season, sacrificing a couple of games as a result, just because the coaching staff knew that they'd be asking the players to peak in the knockout stages.  So the regular 2009/10 season finished:

1st Bristol – Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 16, total points 92
2nd Exeter - Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 12, total points 88

Virtually all the teams that have won the championship in recent years (aside from premiership stalwarts that have been demoted and bounced back, ie Saints and Quins) have subsequently gone back down from the prem pretty quickly - it takes a degree of planning to stay there - perhaps working out how to manage an entire season is the best preparation?

Bristol's scrum wouldn't stand a chance in the Premiership, I'd bet even the Dragons could push them off their own ball   

munkian wrote:Bristol's scrum wouldn't stand a chance in the Premiership, I'd bet even the Dragons could push them off their own ball   

SHOTS_FIRED

Bristol have so many players coming in, I'd be curious to know if there are any get-out clauses or anything. They've certainly gambled on getting promoted this year.

Jimpy wrote:

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

I'd have relegated all three as they make the bottom of the league look untidy..

Out of interest...which team do you support?

Tigers. Of course (played for them as a colt before joining the forces actaully).

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

Effy, think about it this way - there's a set of rules, known to all participants, and firmly established before the season begins - a smart team plays to deliver against those rules, rather than top a league that brings no accolade whatsoever.  Who is to say that the team that finished second in the league wasn't holding something back for the playoffs as winning the final is the ultimate prize?

Are you honestly saying that LW didn't try and beat Bristol during the league stages? Besides, if we did away with the playoffs in the championship then we would be encouraging the championship teams to be consistent performers, which as to my original point, would make them more competitive in the premiership.

There's no clear knockout game in a relegation battle. Sometimes one emerges, but not always and it's more circumstantial / inevitable.

Effy, of course they did,

So they finished with the same number of wins and losses, with the difference between first and second being the number of bonus points each achieved:

Team      Played Won Drawn Lost For Against Bonus Pts Points
1 Bristol: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, points for - 786, points against - 505, bonus points - 21, table points - 96
2 London Welsh: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, for - 724, against - 348, bonus - 12, table - 88

As for head-to-heads, back in Nov LW beat Bristol 22-7 at the Kassam, while in April, Bristol took the honours 25-21 at the Mem, an aggregate score in favour of London Welsh as it happens.

Which team has been more consistent?

I know for a fact that the year Exeter pulled a similar trick on Bristol to win the Championship and secure promotion, we put in what amounted to a pre-season-esque period of strength and conditioning training around Christmas that season, sacrificing a couple of games as a result, just because the coaching staff knew that they'd be asking the players to peak in the knockout stages.  So the regular 2009/10 season finished:

1st Bristol – Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 16, total points 92
2nd Exeter - Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 12, total points 88

Virtually all the teams that have won the championship in recent years (aside from premiership stalwarts that have been demoted and bounced back, ie Saints and Quins) have subsequently gone back down from the prem pretty quickly - it takes a degree of planning to stay there - perhaps working out how to manage an entire season is the best preparation?

That evidence is all very compelling and all (and I should have known Exeter's promotion was in there somewhere) but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't have a full knowledge of what was going on so am thus abdicated of responsibility.

Jimpy wrote:Tigers. Of course (played for them as a colt before joining the forces actaully).

Impressive Jimpy. What position?

Ineffable wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Ineffable wrote:I agree that play offs for promotion are a joke. What are you looking for in the premiership from a promoted team?

A. a team that can win a semi final and final at the end of the season
B. a team that has demonstrated consistency throughout the championship by winning most league games

Seems that if we were expecting them to be AP champions, then A. If we're hoping they'll be competitive and not get relegated immediately ... B.

Bit daft really.

Think of it this way - would Newcastle , London Irish and Gloucester have been pleased to play a semi final and final for not being relegated?

Effy, think about it this way - there's a set of rules, known to all participants, and firmly established before the season begins - a smart team plays to deliver against those rules, rather than top a league that brings no accolade whatsoever.  Who is to say that the team that finished second in the league wasn't holding something back for the playoffs as winning the final is the ultimate prize?

Are you honestly saying that LW didn't try and beat Bristol during the league stages? Besides, if we did away with the playoffs in the championship then we would be encouraging the championship teams to be consistent performers, which as to my original point, would make them more competitive in the premiership.

There's no clear knockout game in a relegation battle. Sometimes one emerges, but not always and it's more circumstantial / inevitable.

Effy, of course they did,

So they finished with the same number of wins and losses, with the difference between first and second being the number of bonus points each achieved:

Team      Played Won Drawn Lost For Against Bonus Pts Points
1 Bristol: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, points for - 786, points against - 505, bonus points - 21, table points - 96
2 London Welsh: played - 23, won - 19, drawn - 0, lost - 4, for - 724, against - 348, bonus - 12, table - 88

As for head-to-heads, back in Nov LW beat Bristol 22-7 at the Kassam, while in April, Bristol took the honours 25-21 at the Mem, an aggregate score in favour of London Welsh as it happens.

Which team has been more consistent?

I know for a fact that the year Exeter pulled a similar trick on Bristol to win the Championship and secure promotion, we put in what amounted to a pre-season-esque period of strength and conditioning training around Christmas that season, sacrificing a couple of games as a result, just because the coaching staff knew that they'd be asking the players to peak in the knockout stages.  So the regular 2009/10 season finished:

1st Bristol – Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 16, total points 92
2nd Exeter - Won 19, drew 0, lost 3, bonus points 12, total points 88

Virtually all the teams that have won the championship in recent years (aside from premiership stalwarts that have been demoted and bounced back, ie Saints and Quins) have subsequently gone back down from the prem pretty quickly - it takes a degree of planning to stay there - perhaps working out how to manage an entire season is the best preparation?

That evidence is all very compelling and all (and I should have known Exeter's promotion was in there somewhere) but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't have a full knowledge of what was going on so am thus abdicated of responsibility.

It's a shame bristol didn't try and copy the Exeter cheifs model, they didn't splash the cash to get to the top, they built a club on solid foundations. I don't want to see bristol fail but IMO they have gone about it all wrong.

Really surprised that Bristol handled that game so badly. Welsh totally outplayed them and I can't see a way back for them. Much as I think the play off is wrong it is what it is and they've shot themselves in the foot big style. I don't see either making the transition to Prem standard but that's the goal they've set and is the same for every promoted side.

Trying to do what the Chiefs did in preparation is incredibly hard and is getting harder as talent is cherry picked every season to feed the Prem. For the top Championship sides who don't have big budgets there is too much rebuilding to do at the start of the new campaign and the squad is rarely in real position to compete without major introductions of players on reaching the Prem.

Ironically, with the quality of players Bristol have coming in they would probably be better equipped to stay up. But the current squad doesn't look like delivering.

No Ross Rennie was massive for them

That's true, Notch, but I can't say that I feel particularly sorry for Bristol when over the last few months they have used loan players like Ross Rennie and Ryan Jones - these guys haven't been with them all season, and you have to admit there's a slight irony that when both are injured, the wheels come off the wagon. Would Brizzle not have been better sticking with their tried and trusted players? Or would they maybe not have got where they are without the loanees?

Well, hard to argue after watching their back row performance that those guys don't add something they don't have. Rennie and Jones are a cut above the tried and trusted, it seems to me, unless I'm being overly harsh based on one bad game (haven't seen much else of those guys so maybe a bit unfair on my part)

I'm not that sympathetic to Bristol, I think the Ryan Jones thing is poor form but wasn't Rennie on a season long loan instead of being a ringer? Thats a little different.

I would be happy for Bristol in the context of Adam D'Arcy being a former Ulster player but seems he's not getting regular game time and will probably be jettisoned if they go up, so...

A lot of clubs in Europe should be monitoring this with regards to seeing if Jack Lam goes through with his deal if they don't pull it off because he is seriously classy and could very easily play for a Top 6 side in England or the Pro12 and be a guy who performs well. Maybe he'll go to work with his cousin Pat in Connacht? That would be nice. I suppose it depends if Brizzle can afford to pay for their squad additions if they don't go up

bluestonevedder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Tigers. Of course (played for them as a colt before joining the forces actaully).

Impressive Jimpy. What position?

Left Wing.

Notch wrote:Well, hard to argue after watching their back row performance that those guys don't add something they don't have. Rennie and Jones are a cut above the tried and trusted, it seems to me, unless I'm being overly harsh based on one bad game (haven't seen much else of those guys so maybe a bit unfair on my part)

I'm not that sympathetic to Bristol, I think the Ryan Jones thing is poor form but wasn't Rennie on a season long loan instead of being a ringer? Thats a little different.

I would be happy for Bristol in the context of Adam D'Arcy being a former Ulster player but seems he's not getting regular game time and will probably be jettisoned if they go up, so...

A lot of clubs in Europe should be monitoring this with regards to seeing if Jack Lam goes through with his deal if they don't pull it off because he is seriously classy and could very easily play for a Top 6 side in England or the Pro12 and be a guy who performs well. Maybe he'll go to work with his cousin Pat in Connacht? That would be nice. I suppose it depends if Brizzle can afford to pay for their squad additions if they don't go up

2-3 months

Think LW have one foot in the Prem already. Having seen a lot of champ games this season I think it is fair to say Welsh have the only pack that could hold their own in the Premiership. Bristol have been flaky at times this season especially in defence, particularly struggling against Leeds who have beaten them 3 times this season.

LW will need to strengthen behind the scrum though. They have a number of players knocking on/past their best who will need replacing if they want to be competitive. Won't be easy when they won't know till Wednesday where they will be playing for sure. There are a number of good young backs knocking around at other Champ clubs that would be worth looking at. These players are more than likely contracted for next season so I don't know if that would necessarily preclude a move. Specifically thinking about Keating and Broadley at Roth and Hughes and Burden from Leeds.

Someone posted eariler that previously it was one win each to LW and Bristol with LW having the aggregrate score. The only difference was the number of bonus points overall, which can depend on weather when you play your home games and stuff like that.

I have no issue with playoffs for these sort of things, especially when it's home and away. But I would have it so you need to get a certain number of points to enter. So if 1st and 2nd are way ahead they playoff together, if 1st is way ahead they go straight up. If 1st-4th are all bunched they all playoff.

HammerofThunor wrote:I have no issue with playoffs for these sort of things, especially when it's home and away. But I would have it so you need to get a certain number of points to enter. So if 1st and 2nd are way ahead they playoff together, if 1st is way ahead they go straight up. If 1st-4th are all bunched they all playoff.

Based on table points or overall results, Thunor? Could make a big difference

Table points. So, something like teams within 10 points of 1st enter playoffs. Or the top 4 teams within 10 points of 1st (20 points, it would have to be something reasonable).

Dunno

Rather than having a home and away final - would it be better as a one-off game on neutral ground like the football does?

Here's that breakaway try again

https://youtu.be/cpY1re3b6Q0?t=1m16s

hammerofThunor wrote: But I would have it so you need to get a certain number of points to enter. So if 1st and 2nd are way ahead they playoff together, if 1st is way ahead they go straight up. If 1st-4th are all bunched they all playoff.

I can't agree as it would just add unnecessary uncertainty when you don't even know if there is a play-off until a particularly team finishes a particular number of points above another, and that may not be until the final whistle on the final day. That will make planning even more of a nightmare than it is currently.

It should either be one or the other but not something that is a mix.

HammerofThunor wrote:I have no issue with playoffs for these sort of things, especially when it's home and away.

I think if you are going to have play-offs a home and an away format is a very good one. It adds a sort of measure of consistency over just knock-out cup rugby. A good example was the London Welsh - Leeds semi-final. It was a knock-out one off game Leeds would be deservedly through, and it looked like they would be through for most of the 2nd leg. But having two legs gave Welsh the chance to let their experience and composure to come back and pull the win out of the fire.

Yeah, the first bit is completely unrealistic, it just feels a bit Poopie when a team that is miles ahead of all the other teams lose a playoff game (possibly because of a dodgy ref decision or a load of injuries during the playoffs.