Are the Tigers afraid of Leinster?

Well of course they are. But equally would Leinster be horrified if they got matched against the Tigers in the HEC?

This article is just to desensitise an earlier Jedwood v Humperdinck spoof post.

Personally I feel that in a non-RWC year, with the current squad the Tigers would get the home advantage quarters slot in 2013.

Portnoy it's impossible to know how Tigers will do till you find out the pool.

You might get this pool: Leinster,Tigers,Ospreys,Racing Metro.

I think Tigers would win at WR but would lose away in Dublin with Leinster finishing top of the group by virtue of better away form than Tigers.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Tigers would win at WR but would lose away in Dublin with Leinster finishing top of the group by virtue of better away form than Tigers.

I would agree with that assessment

beshocked wrote:Portnoy it's impossible to know how Tigers will do till you find out the pool.

You might get this pool: Leinster,Tigers,Ospreys,Racing Metro.

I'd love that 'shocked. Absolutely love it. Cockers mightn't. But I would.

A pool like that would do wonders for attendances in the Liberty Stadium too I reckon.

I'd imagine that's how the pool would end as well. Leinster's bonus point victories at home and good away record seeing them through as top dogs whilst Tigers solid home record and sneaking some points away seeing them second. Racing Metro losing interest after the first few rounds and surrendering points to the other teams.

red_stag wrote:A pool like that would do wonders for attendances in the Liberty Stadium too I reckon.

Staggy, Any QFs home slot from that draw would be almost be equivalent to winning the HEQ itself.

Portnoy - it would be a real achievement to get out of pool but that can't be the attitude.

In 2008 our pool was made up of Munster (2006 champs), Wasps (reigning 2007 champs), Scarlets (who were semi finalists the season before) and Clermont who had a star studded team.

Munster qualified and I remember O'Connell saying that all of those teams would have had aspirations of winning the cup and they had a duty not just to be content with the quarters but to go and win the bloody thing. Apparently Dallaglio said something along those lines to him - that if his team were beaten he would hope it was they were beaten by the best.

Not just getting out of the pool Staggy. Getting a home QF spot would represent the almost impossible achievement out of the hypothetical pool - that's what I'm saying.

Portnoy wrote:Not just getting out of the pool Staggy. Getting a home QF spot would represent the almost impossible achievement out of the hypothetical pool - that's what I'm saying.

It certainly would be very hard but I don;t think anyone is disputing that.

Please do just keep on worrying about next season's hypothetical Heineken cup pools like good little Tigers, until about 5pm on Saturday.

Thanks. ;-)

Are the Tigers afraid of Leinster?

Quaking in their boots Id say- especially seen what Ulster did to them.

The obsession with Leinster continues....

Jedward don't deserve to get into the final much less win it! And that's from a Leinster follower! However, I haven't heard Humpydick...Hummerditch... Humpy whatshisname's song fully yet, but it might be a winning score if the bluerinse ref allows him to infringe with the sideburns....

Oh I think this is the wrong thread...sorry.

TBH Boyne i think everyone is a little obsessed with Leinster at the moment. I'd love to be in their group next season. Welcome you all to Sandy Park!

It’s only been 4 days since the final, it’s not obsession, it’s just the last big game to be played on this side of the world. Fairy nuff.

I think it would be great craic to draw Leicester, would love to go to Welford road on tour.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy it's impossible to know how Tigers will do till you find out the pool.

You might get this pool: Leinster,Tigers,Ospreys,Racing Metro.

The Ospreys would walk that group, Tigers might get an Amlin place though.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy it's impossible to know how Tigers will do till you find out the pool.

You might get this pool: Leinster,Tigers,Ospreys,Racing Metro.

But I want that pool for Quins!

I can just see 15 men shaking in their boots thinking about playing Leinster.



























No, not really.

Quaking in their boots Id say- especially seen what Ulster did to them.

Sheesh one game with Tigers missing several key players and you talk about it like it's dogma. Seem to forget Ulster failed to get near the Tigers try line at WR despite Tigers playing a fullback at 12 for the majority of the game.

The Ospreys would walk that group, Tigers might get an Amlin place though

Been a couple of seasons since we welcomed Ospreys up to Welford Rd, I heard rumours it was because of big bad Billy. Now he's gone your welcome to come back, the games were always pretty good between the two sides.

I think it would be great craic to draw Leicester, would love to go to Welford road on tour

The Leinster fans who came up for the pre season friendly the other year were a great laugh, would be good to have you boys at WR again.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Quaking in their boots Id say- especially seen what Ulster did to them.

Sheesh one game with Tigers missing several key players and you talk about it like it's dogma. Seem to forget Ulster failed to get near the Tigers try line at WR despite Tigers playing a fullback at 12 for the majority of the game.

.

Lets not put forward a distorted view of the Leicester v Ulster head to heads.

At Welford Road Ulster were missing Afoa, Tereblanche, Wallace and Pienaer for the game at WR.
They also had a winger at 15. They had a 12 who had hardly ever played there and not at all for over amonth.
I submit Ulster were missing more 1st XV players at WR than Tigers were at Ravenhill

Its a big test for Cockerill next year, Tigers have proven they can compete in the Jeff even with a handicap but recent years its hardly been inspiring in the HEC has it. Thats where the focus has to shift to, they surely have a point to prove as does the premiership in general.
If it were a guaranteed top two qualification from all groups then pulling leinster wouldnt really be a bad thing, meaning you get to avoid them in the quarters and semis. Under the current system its pretty much impossible to get an easy group, I guess idealy Tigers would like attacking sides rather than defensive ones to help them rack up the BPs and play their own free game.
Whoever they get they are just going to have to perform on the pitch in the first half of the season as well as the second.

I submit Ulster were missing more 1st XV players at WR than Tigers were at Ravenhill

Tigers had no Newby, Crane, Allen, Twelvetrees, Manu and Ben Youngs only fit enough for the bench. If the two academy centres that would usually cover centre one was already injured (Symons) and the other (Forsyth) was stretchered off after about 20 mins (full back Morris was promoted to 12 as we were then 5 centres down). There were some other injuries like Brookes, Hamilton and T Youngs but they would have only added impetus on the bench so don't really count. That's for the game at WR.

At Ravenhill Tigers were missing Deacon, Newby, Crane, Flood and Manu. Then the other bench options like Brookes and T Youngs. Not helped by the Cockerill tactical error of putting Mafi and Parling into the second row, far too lightweight a pairing to take on the Ulster pack.

For what it's worth, I think next year is between Leinster, Leicester, Clermont and Toulouse with Ospreys in with a shout. All down to the draw

My comment was tongue in cheek.

Both teams will want to avoid each other.

Leinster,Tigers,Ospreys,Racing Metro.

That's similar to the Leinster,Clermont,Saracens,Racing Metro group we got in 2010/11. We topped it by some margin and got a home quarter final.

I think we'd beat Tigers in Welford Rd. It would be a great achievement. So I hope we do get them in our pool next year.

I don't think Tigers would be afraid of any team to be honest. It's not in their DNA.

[quote="Feckless Rogue"]

I don't think Tigers would be afraid of any team to be honest. It's not in their DNA.

Doesnt stop them losing though does it, and recently too often to the sides they shouldnt be scared of.

Sam if your are mentioning the likes of Newby I can mention the likes of Payne i.e long term injuries.

The bottom line is at WR both teams were missing a number of players and I honestly believe our loses had a bigger impact on the team - uyou have stronger cover than us. Remember Ferris was on one leg at the time as well.

At WR Leicester were missing three key players - Flood, Deacon, Manu.
If Newby and Crane play who isn't in the first XV ?
The backrow at Ulster was Croft, Salvi, Waldrom hardly weak.
Ditto Mafi and Parling in the 2nd row.

I just dont think the injury card can be played to explain the 2 results

Doesnt stop them losing though does it, and recently too often to the sides they shouldnt be scared of.

A miserable and injury plagued HEC campaign has been followed up by Tigers beating each of the other top 4 AP teams (Quins, Sarries, Saints) away from home and getting tbps away at Quins and Saints. Last season we narrowly lost out away to Leinster (the best team in the competition) in the quarters and this year we were in a group with the 2nd and 3rd place HEC finishers. There definitely needs to be a jump up in the HEC results next year though.

Geoff, Crane would always be in the first team over Waldrom for the big games as his work rate is far higher and the lad will run through brick walls if you asked him to, he adds significantly more grunt which is where we lost the game at Ravenhill as Ulster bossed the tight encounters as Parling and Mafi are more athletic than enforcer and we desperately needed an enforcer. Newby would have been on the bench but he's a handy player to have and may well have replaced Croft at the half time point to add a bit of nasty to the backrow. It was at RH we were missing Flood, Deacon, Manu at WR it was all the centres that were injured and Benny only fit enough for the final 20 otherwise the aggregate score might have been closer.

Ulster outplayed us comprehensively at Ravenhill but the original post insinuated that, that was all Tigers had to offer. I was trying to point out it wasn't. Hope to see you in the knock out stages next year!

np

I personally couldn't see the Tigers beating Leinster if they played tomorrow - even at WR.

However I'd say that next year and given full squads after the SI's for both sides, and managing/rotating their Jeff/Rabo games effectively a back-to-back Leinster/Leicester HEC double-header could not be called either way.

Problem is - all those 'if's.

The difference between the sides is the depth of a fag-paper.

I t would be a great double header clash. Hope it happens now.

Me too, my stag do is provisionally planned to take in the Welford Rd leg of next years HEC double header. That would be a cracker to watch. Be some great match ups and I'd imagine Healey would be desperate for revenge after Cole did a number on him in the 6N, Kearney vs Murphy, Flood vs Sexton and Parling vs Cullen in the lineout.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Doesnt stop them losing though does it, and recently too often to the sides they shouldnt be scared of.

A miserable and injury plagued HEC campaign has been followed up by Tigers beating each of the other top 4 AP teams (Quins, Sarries, Saints) away from home and getting tbps away at Quins and Saints. Last season we narrowly lost out away to Leinster (the best team in the competition) in the quarters and this year we were in a group with the 2nd and 3rd place HEC finishers. There definitely needs to be a jump up in the HEC results next year though.

Right but its not just this season is it. Tigers are notoriously slow starters and on too many occasions have left themselves with it all to do after the Autumn HC games. For a club that always makes the play off final and often looks one of the strongest sides in Europe by finals time their recent HC record is simply not good enough.
the concentration on being prepared and peaking at the business end of the season is great for finals ...but they have to get there first.

Cockerills proved he can make Tigers cut it in the Jeff despite playing with a handicap, lets see some more concentration on the HC next season.

Cockerills proved he can make Tigers cut it in the Jeff despite playing with a handicap, lets see some more concentration on the HC next season

The squad strength has been building over Cockers tenure with big names going out to be replaced by a new signing and an academy graduate. The faith in the academy graduates has grown and next season I'm hoping to see more rotation. With no RWC we should be capable of fielding a first team at home and securing all those games over the course of the season with selective away matches targeted for maximum points. There are some away matches that may be worth sacrificing though or that may be more second team focussed partly as a development tool and partly to make sure our key players are fit and ready for the HEC games.

However, I don't think Cockers has learnt this lesson as HE INSISTED ON PLAYING OUR FIRST CHOICE 10 AND OPENSIDE AGAINST A CRAP TEAM LIKE BATH IN A MEANINGLESS (because of Sale's team choices) GAME AT THE END OF THE SEASON!

Poorfour wrote:Please do just keep on worrying about next season's hypothetical Heineken cup pools like good little Tigers, until about 5pm on Saturday.

Thanks. ;-)

Thank again! ;-)

Poorfour I don't think they were worrying about anything, judging from the dodgey ball retention of the forwards and the awful passing/handling of the backs out side of 9 and 10 a bit more worry might of focussed them. The only positives from the day for Tigers were that Youngs looked back to his best with his committment dragging us back into the game and that young Ford was the best 10 on show. Other than that there wasn't a lot of positives for Tigers as the best way to describe their play was error laden.

I thought the Tuilangi brothers were both poor and let Leicester down badly

Ford is going to be, already is ?, a class act.

Ford for 10, Farrelll for 12 for England. Ford has no goal kicking pressure.

If Leicester and England handle Ford correctly he could, very soon, be the best 10 in the NH.

Watched him 3 times now and I am seriously seriously impressed

I thought the Tuilangi brothers were both poor and let Leicester down badly

I think Alesana had a massive brain fart (not something unheard of) and pretty much gifted Quins their first try. Manu has been struggling desperately for form and in his first final he looked to be just trying to hard. Misjudging his runs and trying to make every tackle and turnover just smacked of a young man trying to hard to live up to his media hype. It will be a lesson he won't have enjoyed learning (he's still only 20). The major let down for me was Waldrom, he was so very poor.

Ford is going to be, already is ?, a class act.

There's just something about the way he delays his passes that makes him so hard to defend, he's practically being tackled as he releases the ball. Tigers major problem was not giving him enough ball, coupled with subbing him late on, that was a tactical error.

Agree with all that.

I was thinking of adding a note saying Waldrom was poor as well.

In the bigger games he really is a better impact off of the bench which is really what he was signed for. Crane is the more archytypal Tigers 8 with his big work rate, oblivious to pain and ability to carry through a brick wall. Waldrom added a much needed injection of attacking intent to the backrow but in the games where you need control and a cool head he is as much use as a chocolate frying pan. If you need him to run around with the ball he's great though.

I don't buy the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo. They didn't complement each other that well in the JWC and they still don't. Farrell never looks comfortable playing as flat as Ford likes to and isn't really a carrying option. Farrell offers a much better defence and points kicking option at 10 currently so England will utilise him there until Ford is ready and then I'd imagine use Farrell to close out games after Ford has done the business.

formerly known as Sam wrote:If you need him to run around with the ball he's great though.

England have suffered with picking a lot of back rowers like that since 2003, which is why I am a lot happier with Lancaster's bias towards guys who get the basics done.

On Tuilagi (maj) and the first Quins try, I think it was Healey had highlighted before the game that when faced with a potential overlap he repeatedly tends to come inside far too early rather than make the outside man got through or around him. Clearly Quins knew this as well and sought to exploit it.

More generally, it looks to me that Quins had been working hard on their defensive line speed, especially in the heat, and were giving the Leicester back line so little room to move that they started trying to force it. At the Stoop, I think they stood off more and let Tigers come at them, which is a much less effective approach.

I think that the issue with the backline arose because of Tigers trying to force one pass to many. Ford cut the midfield channel open at will with his delayed passing but rather than take the tackle of the Quins cover defence Tigers were trying offloads and floated wide passes that were just not happening. The outside backs alignment was pretty awful and you have to wonder what MOC has been doing for the last fortnight!

For the Quins first try it was Alesana not doting the ball down for the 22 that did it. He makes the catch and then runs into traffic just in front of the line, moronic. He dots the ball down and Ford sends the restart into the Quins half and Tigers are safe. Instead there's a scramble and Youngs does well to clear to the 22. Quins did what Tigers didn't and were patient with good recycling and waited until Chuter comes out the line and misses the tackle. Quins pounce, get stopped short but move the ball quickly and it's a two on one against Alesana and as you point out Healey discussed his defensive weaknesses pre game. An awful try to give away by Tigers but Quins stuck to their plan very well and stayed patient.

formerly known as Sam wrote: I don't buy the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo.

Fair enough - if that is the case Ford has to improve his kicking then.

Fair enough - if that is the case Ford has to improve his kicking then

He has already, when I used to watch him play in the A League a couple of years back he really was a 50/50 kicker off the tee. Kicking from handy he's always been able to do that wonderous O'Gara esque kick in over the winger's head bouncing for a lineout in the opposition 22. I think Ford mainly struggles to get power behind his kicks and so has really drive through the ball and generate a much heavier contact that he would like. That seems to effect his accuracy. Having said that he only missed the one in the final and with a summer of conditioning ahead of him his leg power should increase and that area of his game improve. If he wants to be an international 10 then really a 75%+ accuracy should be his goal and this summer will hopefully be the foundation for that.

Then again Tom Homer might be the first choice 15 for England in a few years and he is an exception kicker or Alex Goode could take the 15 shirt and he's pretty handy off the tee as well. Nice for England to have kicking options for once.