England JWC side to play Italy

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England Under 20 starting XV to take on Italy
15 Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
14 Marland Yarde (London Irish)
13 Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
12 Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
11 Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues)
10 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
9 Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)

1 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Cheifs)
2 Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
3 Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
4 Sam Twomey (Harlequins)
5 Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
6 David Sisi (London Irish)
7 Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie) (C)
8 Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements
16 Max Crumpton (Saracens)
17 Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
19 George Merrick (Harlequins)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
21 Ben Spencer (Saracens)
22 Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby)
23 Ben Ransom (Saracens)


Lots of changes, notably what I believe are first starts for Walker at 15, Hill at 13, Heathcote at 12, Sisi at 6 and Harrison at 3. Twomey is back from injury, Basset starts on the left wing, Slade is FH.

Barrier?

Hmm, first game and all and a few unusual combinations, so things will hopefully imrpove, but said in another thread that I wasn't as confident about this year's group, and they really don't look as proficient at the basics or intelligent on the ball.

Against the SH sides I think we'll really miss the ability and decision making of our experienced injured guys, Ford, Kvesic & Daly. Watson as well, who is probably our most exciting back.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Barrier?

Done.

The commentators have gone in opposite directions on Sinckler. Main guy thinks he's called Snickler, while the co-commentator is going for Sinclair.

Cumbrian wrote:The scrappy tries are putting a gloss on this, England will need to improve A LOT to compete against the better teams.

Jeez Cumbrain, we sure are lucky what with all these scrappy tries we are getting!

England worked hard for that, even though it was a thrashing.

I know the replacements were made to look better by playing against a tired side, but I think a few of them should start next time - specifcally Spencer, Mills and Sinckler.

I didn't say they were all scrappy, some of them were quite well worked, but some of them were from Italian mistakes. England didn't play well and you can tell by the reaction of some of our players after they scored a couple of the final tries.

I'dsay that England can take more out of that performance that Australia did from Scotland. One or two people from that side look to be real future internationals. Yarde and (of course Heathcote).

Have England built a FH factory?

I know Cumbrian, I just wonder if some were expecting too much.

I agree with pretty much everything Alcoombe has said.

With some of the main guys not there, players new to each other and in some cases, their own positions, it was always going to be a challenging first outing. Oh and it was always going to be that much harder with a SH that can't actually perform the basics of a SH.

Anyway, they will definitely have to step it up against SA that's for sure

Beaker wrote:I know Cumbrian, I just wonder if some were expecting too much.

I agree with pretty much everything Alcoombe has said.

With some of the main guys not there, players new to each other and in some cases, their own positions, it was always going to be a challenging first outing. Oh and it was always going to be that much harder with a SH that can't actually perform the basics of a SH.

Anyway, they will definitely have to step it up against SA that's for sure

Is it expecting too much to want a player to pass the ball in front of the man instead of behind him? Is it expecting too much to want a player to know how to time a pass in a two-on-one situation? I lost count of the number of times players had to check their runs because the passes were inaccurate. These are absolute basics that these lads were getting wrong. I'm willing to cut them some slack (first game and out of position players etc) and it does seem curmudgeonly after putting 60+ points on the board, but it is not expecting too much for them to get the basics right.

Portnoy wrote:

Have England built a FH factory?

Must have stolen all the workers from Wales' FH factory. Now we're left with two inconsistent rookies (Priestland and Biggar) and a showboater that goes AWOL in the big games (Hook).

That was a good win for England, but they still have a lot to work on to be honest. Too many England playerstrying to play a bit like Sunny Bill Williams. What with the 1 arm passes, Off loading in the tackle, etc etc.

A good win, but Englang will have to improve a hell of a lot if they are going to win this tournament.

Cumbrian wrote:

Is it expecting too much to want a player to pass the ball in front of the man instead of behind him? Is it expecting too much to want a player to know how to time a pass in a two-on-one situation? I lost count of the number of times players had to check their runs because the passes were inaccurate. These are absolute basics that these lads were getting wrong. I'm willing to cut them some slack (first game and out of position players etc) and it does seem curmudgeonly after putting 60+ points on the board, but it is not expecting too much for them to get the basics right.

Problem is poor passing is endemic across the AP (not the only league that is true of either). There are 3 ICs in the main England squad, none of whom can pass to a decenty standard (especially if we exclude offloads)

BUT there was also a lot of good stuff.

i thought robsons passing from the base was very poor often putting those outside him in difficult positions but he was very good when he kept the ball in hand and ran with it. england were just going for too much i am sure against more threatening opposition they will protect the ball more and play with more patience. also i am sure a few of the notable replacements will be starting the big games.

I only saw the first half but that left serious concerns over the 9/10/12 combination. There was no real attacking organisation and the basics just weren't good enough. What's the point in utilising 2 play makers if neither can give the flying backs outside of them a pass to run onto? We really missed Ford though Slade's points kicking was reassuringly good.

Far too much forcing the play with daft offloads from England. They improved in the 2nd half and took the contact and recycled the ball better. But only just.

Spencer should start at 9 against Ireland.

Gotta say that, after today's games, Australia look very good. Didn't see NZ's game though.

First game, combinations which have never played together before (and some who were frankly playing out of position), and a SH who, whilst packing loads of ability, cannot pass.

We looked much better after the changes, when we actually played an IC and had a SH who put the ball just in front of the player he was passing to at a reasonable height.

Breakdown and line-out need work, and they need to pass like they did in the second-half. In the final 6 Nations game I thought England had a tendency to try to do too much as individuals, and that is still there.

Overall though it may have been scrappy but we still scored loads of tries and as the performances hopefully become more coherent England's ability to take their chances and to kick their points will hopefully tell.

I wonder if Ireland's victory over SA will affect selection for the Ireland game? I'd imagine England were building to the SA game.

I'd expect something like this against Ireland in the backs:

Spencer, Heathcote/Bell, Elliot, Mills, Addison, Walker, Bell/Ransom

In other words all the backs will be changed. I'd also expect Nutley and Clifford into the backrow, Merrick into the starting line-up in the second row, and Sinkler and Britton to start in the front row.

Cumbrian - In answer to your question re. Sisi it seems unlikely that we will be moving him at any point. Although we are very full in the back row, he was converted a couple of years ago to 6/8 as it is much more suited to his skill set. He has actually spent most of his game time for us in the 7 shirt this season and has done a decent job. I would be very surprised if he was moved back to lock. Many of us Irish fans are hoping for a long term LI and England back row of:

6. Sisi
7. Gibson
8. Gray

Although some questions remain about whether Gibson is really a 7 in the long term.

Cumbrian wrote:I didn't say they were all scrappy, some of them were quite well worked, but some of them were from Italian mistakes. England didn't play well and you can tell by the reaction of some of our players after they scored a couple of the final tries.

not playing well and winning by 60 is kinda odd. but if that is really the case- i think its time to step on the idea that the 6 nations shouldnt be a closed shop- italy have no right.,.

mystiroakey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I didn't say they were all scrappy, some of them were quite well worked, but some of them were from Italian mistakes. England didn't play well and you can tell by the reaction of some of our players after they scored a couple of the final tries.

not playing well and winning by 60 is kinda odd. but if that is really the case- i think its time to step on the idea that the 6 nations shouldnt be a closed shop- italy have no right.,.

I'll admit I was a bit harsh on them at times, but I can't help comparing all performances to the level we will need when they come up against the better teams in the tournament. We would not have scored so easily against better teams and our handling errors would have been punished more. The team looked 100% better when the changes were made, but you've got to factor in how dispirited Italy were getting by that point. For what it's worth, I think they will be a lot more precise in the coming games.

Getting rid of Italy would be a bad idea, how are they ever going to improve if we deprive them of a better class of opposition?

i wouldnt get rid of them- id have a promotion/relegation 6nations with more european clubs- we need to get all teams better. This is not about heloing a few- its about helping all- and it could also be the kick italy need...

because italy are still miles behind at grass roots level- your saying engalnd should have actually won by 100 or something- that is dramatic- its amatuer stuff pal

mystiroakey wrote:because italy are still miles behind at grass roots level- your saying engalnd should have actually won by 100 or something- that is dramatic- its amatuer stuff pal

No, I'm not saying they should win by 100 points. I'm pleased with the score, with Ireland beating S.A. it could become significant. What I am saying is that the thumping scoreline flatters the performance England put in and disguised some of the poor elements of our game.

Lets be clear here. I'm pleased with the result and many aspects of the play, they just need to sharpen things up and I think they will do that.

Italy are better than the performance last night too. In the Six nations they were closer in a lot of the games:

France 19-5 Italy
Ireland 27-8 Italy
Italy 7-42 England
Wales 30-23 Italy
Italy 17-20 Scotland

well maybe its just that england are so good at age level then

cause we thumped em in the 6n's as well

Worrying watching our basics at times.

The 9 and 10 especially couldn't seem to time passes or catch perticularly well. Hopefully it'll get better as the tournament goes on but watching Irelands D against SA we are going to need a big improvement and players like Snickler will have to start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Rl0xQAMGc

Highlights here.

You would expect Spencer and Ransom to start the next game at 9 and 15 respectively.

These two should improve the side.

First game, combinations which have never played together before

Apart from at the junior 6Ns where the majority of that backline played at least one game together. Slade and Hill are both from the Chiefs so what's Slade's excuse when it comes to not being able to pick him out for a decent pass? The English team just looked under cooked to me.

You would expect Spencer and Ransom to start the next game at 9 and 15 respectively

More than likely, every player in the squad has to start one game so they will be certainly used at some point.

Spencer looked miles better then most of the players around him when he came on. Will he much time for Saracens do you think Beshocked?

Hopefully Heathcote will be at 10 next match as well

Yappysnap Spencer should be miles better. He's used to playing at a much higher level - HC and England Saxons.

Taking on the likes of Yachvili and Semenzato is much tougher than taking on any U20 9! So much more time to think and execute at JWC level.

To be honest I don't know. That Saracens 9 shirt is very competitive. I hope so though as he seems to look so cool and calm.

Spencer's not flashy but he's got really good basics.

the thing that got me about the back line play was the distance that Slade was standing from the break-down. The scrummie was having to take 4 - 5 paces to fling the ball at him and tghere was no-one offering a decoy line for him. Then we shovelled the ball down the line until the Italian defence had drifted onto the winger and he was out-numbered. The organisation in the first half for that concerned me, as a better side would have turned us over numerous times and probably scored as a result.

As yappysnap says a Spencer-Heathcote - 9,10 combo is the recommended solution.

greenandpleasantland I expect those two to sort of out the problems you believe we had.

I hope that Spencer and Heathcote do sort it out, my concern was more over the gameplan idea as it clearly was a tactic to move the ball quickly from one side of the pitch to the other and then back. Better passing would have helped, but there was an absence of genuine decoys to hold the defence and the back-row could not get out there quickly enough. Against better sides this will cost us.

greenandpleasantland sounds like you're describing the first team during the 6Ns there. That's a worrying thought as the English defence doesn't have a Brad Barritt to keep the midfield line together.

I like Spencer, he might not be flashy but because he is cool headed and does the basics very well you can afford to have a more attacking minded backline knowing that Spencer will only give good ball at the right time. He's a good fit for Sarries and with de Kock and Wigglesworth in their late 20s/early 30s he is a natural successor they should make good use of in their rotation system.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

First game, combinations which have never played together before

Apart from at the junior 6Ns where the majority of that backline played at least one game together. Slade and Hill are both from the Chiefs so what's Slade's excuse when it comes to not being able to pick him out for a decent pass? The English team just looked under cooked to me.

The backline kept changing, you might remember we played 5 different starting FHs in the 5 games.

Hill has been at Pirates all season, and I think Slade has at Plymouth but injured almost all year. Plus of course Hill is a 12 making an extrmely rare start at 13. Maybe Slade was looking for him rather than Heathcote out of a vague instinct that this is what he used to do 12 months ago.

They were undercooked, but there were also some strange selections and players playing out of position. The squad has two 12s (Mills and Hill), and 2.5 13s (Addison, Walker and Elliot), so why start a FH at IC and an IC at OC (not to mention an OC at FB when there are two alternatives, Ransom and Bell, in the squad)?

To expect that lot to gell instantly is proably unrealistic, even if your SH can pass. Someone else talked about the lack of decoy runners - well how often has Heathcote had to run a decoy line as starting FH for Bath?

The Ireland game will see a more sensible selection. My main concern is Robson is one of only two SHs in the party, and so will feature in every game. His passing is destructive, but not in a good way. He's a converted 10, and I think if he is to make the most of his undoubted talent he should be looking to move to 15. In the meantime, we have a problem.

DaveM someone said Robson is like Simpson - solution use him off the bench against tired defences. Get Spencer to do the lion's share of the work. Though obviously you don't want to overplay him.

As said before a sensible 9-10 combo is Spencer,Heathcote which you would expect vs Ireland.

DaveM someone said Robson is like Simpson - solution use him off the bench against tired defences. Get Spencer to do the lion's share of the work. Though obviously you don't want to overplay him.

Every player has to start a game in the JWC, may well be England were getting his start out of the way against Italy so Spencer can start in the bigger games to come.

I wonder if they'll go Spencer/Bell as the 9/10 against Ireland.