England Player Ratings v SA

First topic message reminder :

These are not my ratings, rather an average of those awarded by journos.

As I find more i will amend this post.

Current contributors: Planet Rugby, Telegraph, Sunday Times, The Rugby Paper, The Times

Mike Brown	6.6
Chris Ashton	5.8
Manu Tuilagi	6.8
Brad Barritt	5.2
Ben Foden	6.6
Owen Farrell	5.0
Ben Youngs	5.6
Ben Morgan	5.2
Chris Robshaw	7.0
Tom Johnson	6.4
Geoff Parling	6.2
Mouritz Botha	6.8
Dan Cole	6.0
Dylan Hartley	5.0
Joe Marler	5.4

If the coaches even think about doing that, they have to let the player in question play there on wednesday at least. otherwise it'll just get messy

I have a feeling its going to be

9 Youngs
10 Hodgson
12 Farrell
13 Tuilagi

Then ill cry

I doubt that. Flood will be next in line at fly half, and I'd bet that Hodgson will play almost the full game on Wednesday as the Nick Evans figure in a back line of:

9. Care
10. Hodgson
11. Monye
12. Turner-Hall
13. Lowe
14. Wade
15. Goode

i rememeber the pundits after the game saying they would go for ;

10- flood
12- farrell
13-tuilagi

farrell will not be dropped, england need a reliable goal kicker.

are we sure barrit is out?

Im just basing it on the fact Lancaster has always gone with Hodgson over Flood...he just doesnt seem to like him....

Flood or Joseph would be ok at 12 but both would be a thousand times better in their actual positions and there's not much to stop them playing there.

Allan or JTH will be 12 and the way Lancaster has gone with selections so far I guess it'll be JTH, which may not be a bad thing if he gives 100%

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im just basing it on the fact Lancaster has always gone with Hodgson over Flood...he just doesnt seem to like him....

Well he went for Flood over Hodgson yesterday.

Btw if he does go for the axis of evil and select Hodgson/Farrel/Manu i'll cry!

GeordieFalcon wrote:In that second clip...what is the free kick for?

It's a penalty, and it's because Tuilagi attempts to regain his feet after the Steyn tackle was completed, which is illegal.

Barritt is def out of the next game, had to have surgery today for a lacerated eyeball.

"Brad Barritt @bradbarritt

Thanks for all the messages! Had a small op this morning to repair a laceration of the conjunctiva in my eye. Will heal very quickly!"

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im just basing it on the fact Lancaster has always gone with Hodgson over Flood...he just doesnt seem to like him....

Well he went for Flood over Hodgson yesterday.

Good point...

captainrapido wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:In that second clip...what is the free kick for?

It's a penalty, and it's because Tuilagi attempts to regain his feet after the Steyn tackle was completed, which is illegal.

Ah thanks for that...i was a bit puzzled...

yappysnap wrote:Btw if he does go for the axis of evil and select Hodgson/Farrel/Manu i'll cry!

Well the timing of Hodgson's pass could help put Tuilagi in a lot of space on the gainline, giving him the extra yard to play with, forcing a wide defender inside and allowing Tuilagi to pass it wide for a try, while Farrell focuses on kicking and leading the defensive line.

Or not, of course.

I'd rate SL 4 out of 10 for the game, poor selection choices pre game were then compounded by the abysmal subs and the glaring squad issues we now have at lock, hooker and 12.

On a side note was it worth even hiring Catt? Same old attacking play as the 6N's when SL was coaching it (as much as everyone likes to forget it was him coaching backs and Farrel on defence) makes me wonder if he only got the Baabaa's match to coach for. If so is Catt actually the defence coach now? Or do we not have a defence coach?

I've not seen the game due to work, but saw a stat that said England lost every scrum on their own put in. Is that correct?

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've not seen the game due to work, but saw a stat that said England lost every scrum on their own put in. Is that correct?

Nah we won 3/7

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've not seen the game due to work, but saw a stat that said England lost every scrum on their own put in. Is that correct?

Nah we won 3/7

There was a lot of early engaging (3 in a row at one point?) that resulted in free-kicks.

Winning 3 out of 7 on your own feed is still pretty shoite to be honest. Won't comment fully until I watch it.

Rowntree blamed it on them not dealing with the SA replacements in the front row, and like Lancaster singled out Marler for praise. But that does seem to be a case of loving up the new boys.
Who out of Corbs PDJ and Marler make the next team and whether starting or on the bench should say a lot about what Rowntree really though was the cause of the scrum flump.

Early engaging is an odd one, refs hardly ever bother to penalise it unless it has a noticeable effect but getting called more than once for it is pretty poor.

Crobs for me if he's fit.
Hartley
Cole

Marler was solid on his debut in a tough arena...but Corbs weighs in at over 19st...and i do believe that little extra weight is vital against the boks.

Marler will get his chances...

PDJ concerned me though when he came on...he was absolutely dismantled...

PDJ is not a loosehead and should never play there at international level. He is back up for Cole as 2nd best tighthead, but as a bench option he is not viable with only one prop on it.

Good job the IRB are introducing 8-man benches.

Nobody is though, Stevens was our only doublesider and he's Poopie off form and injured. But as Cole never seems to come off, I think Marler on the bench over PDJ on the bench. And if he does, surely Corbs is a better TH than PDJ is a loosehead?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Marler was solid on his debut in a tough arena...but Corbs weighs in at over 19st...and i do believe that little extra weight is vital against the boks.

Couple of points;

First of all, according to this interview here, Corbisiero doesn't weigh over 19st (although admittedly it's unclear whether Corbisiero is meant to have told him that or if he just looked on wikipedia)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2012/03/the_final_countdown_inside_the.html

Secondly, even with Marler in the team our tight five and pack as a whole was still heavier than the Boks. Pure weight isn't the problem, and I'd say Marler is just as powerful.

THe other problem is of course the second rows:

The props can be fantastic...but if you have underpoiwered second rows pushing behind you....the pack aint gonna mke much headway...and it is here that we are really missing a monster like Garvey / Attwood....

GeordieFalcon wrote:THe other problem is of course the second rows:

The props can be fantastic...but if you have underpoiwered second rows pushing behind you....the pack aint gonna mke much headway...and it is here that we are really missing a monster like Garvey / Attwood....

Yeah like Quins where if Kohn is playing our props can match any front row, but if he's not we get stuffed

Marler is as powerful in the loose as Corbisiero, I don't think weight is an issue.

Corbisiero is a better tighthead than Stevens or PDJ are loosehead, so I would have Corbs starting at loosehead next test with Marler on the bench.

Cole can last 80 minutes and if he does go off for any reason Corbs can just switch over.

Our second row is lightweight, both in the scrum and in the loose.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Marler is as powerful in the loose as Corbisiero, I don't think weight is an issue.

Corbisiero is a better tighthead than Stevens or PDJ are loosehead, so I would have Corbs starting at loosehead next test with Marler on the bench.

Cole can last 80 minutes and if he does go off for any reason Corbs can just switch over.

Exactly what I would do

Thom...

During the six nations Corbs was listed every game as England sheaviest man...over 19st...but anyway i didnt realise we actually came out heavier than them...and im surprised to hear that.,

I was surprised as well. That's according to the stats sky showed on screen. About 12kg in it. I figured that maybe their front row isn't actually that heavy but just very well built, a bit like the French one.

Quite possibly yes...

How did JJ do when he came on?

Only given 2 minutes but managed a linebreak in that time after a nice delayed pass by Flood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB5As0nKSkc

From 1:45:50 onwards

Thanks for the link thomh

englands pack was heavier and the tight 5 was heavier.

underpowered second row is something i here all the time on here, all of the options available are around the same size (garvey a bit heavier), garvey has never looked ready for test rugby when i have seen him.

the scrum has to improve, for me it was one of the main reasons england couldnt get a platform in the second half.

Breaking news is that Mike Brown is out of the rest of the tour, with Nick Abendanon flown in as cover.

Oh dear what happened?

See new topic CJ.

Fractured thumb and ligament tear. Nick Abendanon called up, and is already in Johannesburg for a wedding.

that changes things quite a bit, i wonder what happened to brown?

Bad news. Looks like either JJ or Wade next week then, exciting either way. Poor Mike Brown, tests in SA haven't treated him well at all. Maybe Goode on the bench?

foden back to full back, monye in at wing

Could be any of Monye, Wade, Joseph or Lowe. Most likely Monye or Joseph I'd have thought.

Forgot Monte was on tour

I'd be very surprised if Wade gets picked for this game. It would be an odd reaction to the physical pasting we took yesterday.

HQ matt wrote:englands pack was heavier and the tight 5 was heavier.

underpowered second row is something i here all the time on here, all of the options available are around the same size (garvey a bit heavier), garvey has never looked ready for test rugby when i have seen him.

the scrum has to improve, for me it was one of the main reasons england couldnt get a platform in the second half.

When will people get past this belief that weight = power? How heavy the locks are is not an issue. Botha and Parling are great defensively and make lots of tackles, but neither carries hard into contact and neither pushes strong enough in the scrum. For me you can have one of them paired with a lock who is a more powerful/dynamic player in terms of attack.

Whether Garvey is ready for test rugby or not, he is that type of player. A dynamic carrier and scrummager, which is precisely what the England front 5 needs.

Im not saying that weight = power....

Im saying that if you have two guys with roughly the same ability at the moment...say for example Corbs and Marler (who i expect to make the 1 shirt his own eventually)...then the additional weight of Corbs can be an advantage...

The difference is that our pack was heavier...which surprised the hell out of me...but we didnt match the Boks power.....

And we never will.

There are you play where the carry can really mess up their game - I'd suggest Australia as an example. We will never carry our way to victory against SA, we need to play smarter.

Matt Garvey was looked at by England, obviously didn't impress Rowntree (I'd suggest with his size he just can't get through the workload Rowntree wants) and has been dropped from current consideration. .