My Questions About Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Yeah, listen mods and fellow posters, sorry to start another thread about Ireland. I do apologise Just feel having some separate yet parallel discussions would benefit the site. Things can get a bit sidetracked on the main thread, actual discussion becomes hard.

ANYWAY, I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden on the wing he was the only option. Harsh though it is, I'm glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance so it's the right call. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

First player to score two hatricks in his first two games for the All Blacks?

Notch wrote:Julien Savea is going down McFaddens win again. What are the odds he'll be targeted in the backs?

Its actually crazy to think of it. A player getting a hatrick on his debut. Its honestly like Ireland is a different dimenion. When was the last time we had a player 'burst' on the scene. We just don't do bursting here i guess. And its only his second club season. Last season he wasnt even worth talking about.

Makes you question if we are just playing to our ability and on the rare occassion we manage to punch above our weight.

Surely Kidney can't be blamed for Zebo not being as Exceptional as Savea on their debuts, can he?

Notch wrote:Julien Savea is going down McFaddens win again. What are the odds he'll be targeted in the backs?

The only solution is to probably target him in the back.

clivemcl wrote:

Notch wrote:Julien Savea is going down McFaddens win again. What are the odds he'll be targeted in the backs?

Its actually crazy to think of it. A player getting a hatrick on his debut. Its honestly like Ireland is a different dimenion. When was the last time we had a player 'burst' on the scene. We just don't do bursting here i guess. And its only his second club season. Last season he wasnt even worth talking about.

Makes you question if we are just playing to our ability and on the rare occassion we manage to punch above our weight.

Surely Kidney can't be blamed for Zebo not being as Exceptional as Savea on their debuts, can he?

You're not seriously blaming Kidney for that are you?

Savea had a lot more chances playing for a much better team. Zebo had little chance to shine honestly.

Thomond wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Notch wrote:Julien Savea is going down McFaddens win again. What are the odds he'll be targeted in the backs?

Its actually crazy to think of it. A player getting a hatrick on his debut. Its honestly like Ireland is a different dimenion. When was the last time we had a player 'burst' on the scene. We just don't do bursting here i guess. And its only his second club season. Last season he wasnt even worth talking about.

Makes you question if we are just playing to our ability and on the rare occassion we manage to punch above our weight.

Surely Kidney can't be blamed for Zebo not being as Exceptional as Savea on their debuts, can he?

You're not seriously blaming Kidney for that are you?

No. Thats what i was saying. See the line in bold.

I just don't understand McFadden starting. People often question Zebo's defence and positional sense but, for me, McFadden is worse. I know he's predominately a centre but he's had plenty of time on the wing over the last 2 seasons to cut out these errors and improve.

Would you ever consider 1 or 2 of those back rowers in the 2nd row - Its just a thought - Could Heaslip do a Ryan Jones? etc

They have tried with McLaughlin, but there isn't much point as we have good second row options. Heaslip would be too small at 6 foot 3, Jones is 6 foot 5.

There was talk of Ferris moving to second row to add a bit of power and maybe prolonging his career, a Brad Thorn type figure. But he's just too good and important to our backrow, we move too many players out of position as it is already so I can't see it happening.

I think it would damage his career more than anything. More pressure on the knee in the scrum.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:But Trimble seems to favour the right wing more than the left wing! He's comfortable enough on both but has always looked more dangerous on the right for Ireland as far as I'm concerned. He came off an indifferent 6N at 11. Had a great summer series before the RWC at 14

Right wing and left wing are different positions. And McFadden isn't really comfortable in either

Even trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that explanation makes no sense.

Exactly, I just don't know what to say, I really don't.

Neither do I (apart from 'neither do I').

The last time I can remember most posters feeling this despondent about Irish Rugby is the 2008 Six Nations. The 2008 Summer Tour under Michael Bradley was the start of a recovery. Then Kidney managed to get us through the Autumn as second seeds for the RWC and delivered a Grand Slam. Since then, it's been a slow downhill curve until we were right back where we started from before Kidney came in. And now we're back to the level of despondency we had in 2008.

And to top it all off, we have to listen to Sin e.

Now you don't. He has his thread over there; we have our thread here. Unless he starts posting on every thread, you don't have to listen to him at all. Even then, if you ignored him, you wouldn't have to listen. No-one is making people engage with him. He's just particularly frustrating because when you do, you get reeled into a really long debate that becomes increasingly bizarre and pointless. But for all that, I don't think he's malicious at all. Leave it out about him if you can. I know you're pished off but don't be taking personal digs at him

True. Though the rest of the irish posters seem to be in the other thread, but we can't exactly make this thread known or Sin will come here as well.

Leave it out about him if you can. I know you're pished off but don't be taking personal digs at him, it makes the situation worse not better.

Even now we're talking about him not rugby; spoiling a good thread when he isn't even here! So forget him for now.

I'm not trying to have personal digs, but his blind ignorance as you say is very frustrating. Anyways, back on topic, when we get a new coach, would you prefer to see an IQ guy like Bradley or O'Shea, or someone outside of the irish system?

I think Michael Bradley would be an excellent backs coach appointment for our team. O'Shea as well. Are they ready for the pressure and expectation of the top job as well as sorting the problems left behind by the previous regime? I dunno.

For that reason I think we need someone really experienced guy to take on this job and we've no real Irish candidate that fits the bill. Could Graham Henry be tempted over? I doubt it. I find it hard to identify a candidate off the top of my head.

Let's talk about Dan Tuohy. I was disappointed with him the loose in the first test. He struggled to make any real impression, but his scrummaging combination with Fitzpatrick was really crucial. Can he step it up? He's one of the guys who needs to.

Rory just ignore him.

You keep engaging with him.

I think Tuohy put in a lot of that infamous 'unseen work' in the Irish scrum when he was on. Think he scrummaged really hard. But not so much around the field. If he was really working hard to help make his tighthead look good, its understandable to an extent, but we need to see Tuohy the ball carrier and link man the way we do for Ulster as well.

Ireland will be do better than you think is my mind.

Last week was poor kick away nervous. This week is nothing to lose and will be kept closer and more patient and precious about the possession. Just fighting the urge to kick away!

Look at the start of the game last week. Ireladn get the ball. And make good possession. Is comfortable and clean out well and recycle ok. Then four phases right and two left and make a lot of territory! Then no reason at all, kick to touch.

The all blacks keep to hand but make some handling mistakes and turn over 5 times in a row! Every time Ireland go through 6-8 phase then kick the ball away! And for no reason! Just no patience.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm not trying to have personal digs, but his blind ignorance as you say is very frustrating. Anyways, back on topic, when we get a new coach, would you prefer to see an IQ guy like Bradley or O'Shea, or someone outside of the irish system?

I think Connor O'Shea as a head coach or director of rugby or whatever you want to call it would be my choice. As a rule I would prefer an Irishman as Irish coach. Schmidt would be an excellent candidate as well, but I just see his appointment causing the same problems as Kidney. I remember more concerns about Kidney because he from Munster coach on the old 606 rather than his conservative nature. I don't want a new coach under a cloud before he even had one game.

Ideally I would like something along the lines of ;
O'Shea- Head Coach
Mike Ruddock- Attacking/Backs Coach
???? -Forwards Coach. If possible I would love to see Wayne Smith in this position. I know he has been a backs coach as well and this sort of appointment might improve the offloading and skills set of our pack.
Greg Feek- Scrum Coach
Les Kiss- Defence Coach
I wouldn't have a clue about Fitness and conditioning, and we might want a skills coach in there too.

Hooky

Brian McLaughlin- could he combine his role with the Ulster Academy with specialist breakdown and skills training with Ireland? The progress Chris Henry has made as an openside owes a lot to McLaughs I suspect.

Well who has been playing well in the loose lately? We used to use Healy and O'Brien to tear teams apart, but we don't even use them like that anymore. Tuohy does it for Ulster, but he didn't for Ireland. Why are we not using these guys for their strengths?

Would O'Shea even be interested at this point? He would be a great option IMO. I don't think he would have any provincial bias either, he would surely pick mostly Leinster players, but that is for pretty obvious reasons.

Notch wrote:Brian McLaughlin- could he combine his role with the Ulster Academy with specialist breakdown and skills training with Ireland? The progress Chris Henry has made as an openside owes a lot to McLaughs I suspect.

I 100% agree and think Ireland have been poorer since he let his post there. It might be a confidence thing with Ireland as well, but for all the tactical mistakes he has made as Ulster coach, the skill set of the players massively improved in his tenure. I ruled him out as I don't think he would be in a position to take the job. Isn't his wife still in not great health? He might not want all the trips to Dublin and elsewhere with the squad. I miss Geoff, he might be able to tell us more on that.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Ireland will be do better than you think is my mind.

Last week was poor kick away nervous. This week is nothing to lose and will be kept closer and more patient and precious about the possession. Just fighting the urge to kick away!

Look at the start of the game last week. Ireladn get the ball. And make good possession. Is comfortable and clean out well and recycle ok. Then four phases right and two left and make a lot of territory! Then no reason at all, kick to touch.

The all blacks keep to hand but make some handling mistakes and turn over 5 times in a row! Every time Ireland go through 6-8 phase then kick the ball away! And for no reason! Just no patience.

Thats it. We don't seem to know what to with the ball when it gets past four, five, six phases. I feel like this is a coaching issue. I'm sorry it keeps coming back to coaching but at the end of the day- it's so important! It's either caoching structures insufficient, or confidence low. But who has the answers to either in the Ireland set-up as it is?

We started well but we scored 3 points. They came off an All Black indiscipline. Then we got seven against the run of play, came from exploiting a turnover. We never scored points off something we created from phase play or even a strike move from first phase. We took advantage of opportunities the All Blacks gave us. I'm just so worried we aren't scoring really 'hard earned' points.

I dont think you can say coaching. These are professional players. They must know how to score the try is not just chip to the side line. I think is just about nervous and give too much respect. It looks a bit like try to run out the clock and avoid play the rugby!

It was a lot of times same offenders who do it. It is too much percentage and not enough ambition.

But NZ look vulnerable by the ruck so should be attack it!

anotherworldofpain wrote:I dont think you can say coaching. These are professional players. They must know how to score the try is not just chip to the side line. I think is just about nervous and give too much respect. It looks a bit like try to run out the clock and avoid play the rugby!

It was a lot of times same offenders who do it. It is too much percentage and not enough ambition.

But NZ look vulnerable by the ruck so should be attack it!

Nope its coaching...

Kidney's sin, in my eyes, in trying to play tactics with players not equipped to do it. His tactics at Munster worked because, in my opinion at least, he had Alan Quinlan and Ronan O'Gara at his pomp. Those tactics just will not work with the personel he has available to him. People say rugby has moved on, we need attacking, running rugby etc etc. Thats plain nonsense. Wales are an extremely limited side, play limited 12 man rugby, and then when gaps emerge they spread the ball wide. They don't play anything remotely resembling 'the Welsh way'. It is extremely effective, and Gatland picks players to play those tactics. If you look at the form all round players Lydiate and Falateau should not be in that side. Ryan Jones has turned his game around, and Tuparic is the second best 7 in Britain or Ireland and I can see him and Warburton working well together. However, Gatland picks players to fulfil specific roles and has been extremely successful with it. But make no mistake, his Welsh side are nothing better than functional.

On the other hand, Kidney doesn't have the players to play his 'brand' of rugby. With respect to Sexton his kicking out of hand at this level is simply not good enough. A back row of the best individuals of O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip is not 'balanced' enough to do what Kidney needs to them to do. I don't mean balanced as in they lack an out an out 7 or anything like that. I mean they lack the elements required to spoil, to steal and turnover effectively the way Munster were so brilliant at. O'Brien put in a superb effort on Saturday but the question has to be asked, what did O'Mahony and Heaslip do? Why does Kidney not pick 'lesser' individuals that might actually make the unit as a whole better?

Kidney's biggest problem is failing to change his tactics to suit the players he has. Sexton excels when he gets quick phase ball. There was potential for that on Saturday in what was one of the better pack performances, though still imperfect, in quite some time. Murray did not provide that. Time and time again Sexton has demonstrated his limitations at provincial and international level when he is given static, slow ball. Yet Kidney persists with first O'Leary and now Murray. It doesn't make sense.

Wales still do everything with speed though Hookisms. They play at pace for the most part. That is what the new laws need. You can't be spending an age at the breakdown because the opposition will just realign itself in no time. Defences are harder to penetrate. Each team has a way of creating space, and ultimately exploiting it. Each team that does this effectively has real pace to their game. Ireland don't do any of that, nor do they have pace.

Our ball carriers are made to carry from a static position every time we want to use them. It is usually the old ruck and run where we use O'Brien, Healy etc. Now how outdated is that? We should have the likes of Healy charging into the opposition, making ground, support players clearing, our scrum half immediately firing the ball out to Sexton, before using another carrier in O'Brien or Tuohy, to repeat the process. Quick, recycled ball. Continuity. That is how all the best teams will play. Then we can ship it out wide when we create enough space.

We have some of the best players to do this as well. I got excited even typing that as I realise we have some of the most dynamic players around to put us on the front foot. Why the flip are we not playing like this? Instead we make sure we have the ball completely secure at the breakdown, then Murray/Sexton will look for a nice patch of green to boot the ball to. Otherwise we ship the ball out wide when nothing is on.

I'm delighted Kidney has kept faith with Tuohy. Last week he was only noted by his absence. He has a second chance and I think he's gonna have a big game. I was almost certain Kidney would pick DOC for the second test and, to be honest, I don't like having a go at DOC because he's one player that you know is gonna leave it all on the field. It's just time has caught up with him and he no longer has the same impact on the game and it's been like that for a while now.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Our ball carriers are made to carry from a static position every time we want to use them. It is usually the old ruck and run where we use O'Brien, Healy etc. Now how outdated is that? We should have the likes of Healy charging into the opposition, making ground, support players clearing, our scrum half immediately firing the ball out to Sexton, before using another carrier in O'Brien or Tuohy, to repeat the process. Quick, recycled ball. Continuity. That is how all the best teams will play. Then we can ship it out wide when we create enough space.

We have some of the best players to do this as well. I got excited even typing that as I realise we have some of the most dynamic players around to put us on the front foot. Why the flip are we not playing like this? Instead we make sure we have the ball completely secure at the breakdown, then Murray/Sexton will look for a nice patch of green to boot the ball to. Otherwise we ship the ball out wide when nothing is on.

The last time we played like that was against England in the 2011 6 nations and that was a one off.

Yeah exactly. O'Brien ran riot in that entire tournament. Our play in the loose is pretty atrocious right now.

My favourite memory of that game, nothing to do with barging runs, great committed defence or tries......https://youtu.be/Vu9SZPlxjVk

Yeah that part is great.

So lads,lets all dream the impossible dream for a minute and say that saturday afternoon we have beaten NZ.What would the reaction be,would Kidney deserve a reprieve or does that depend on stlye of play etc..For example if it lashes rain and we do an Australia at the RWC is that enough or do we need to see more from the team.

Personally my opinion on Kidney would depend on how we went in the 3rd Test and then the AI's,a one off win no matter how big or historic is no longer enough to restore my faith in this team.

In the past there have been big one off wins, but they've masked a generally downwards trend. I've thought we've turned the corner so many times under Kidney only for it to not be backed up. I know this all seems anti-kidney. But right up until this Six Nations I was a defender of him and his coaching style, or at least in broad terms.

I can't give a real answer to your question because I've lost all faith that winning is possible. I genuinely don't believe we are facing anything but defeat- at best, hard fought and unlucky. At worst, devastating and embarrassing.

Is it me or are we using the wrong tactics, for the players we have? A few have mentioned that SOB is better in the loose so is Jamie H. Sexton can get the back line firing if he gets good service!! which he isn't. I do wonder like others DARCY!!! why? The mind boggles as to what DK is doing I only hope the players can get some payback.

Notch wrote:
ANYWAY, I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

1. Probably not and most likely.
2. Because Kidney and his team are eejits.
3. Zebo?
4. Yes (imo).
5. 100% No.

What I dont understand is why Notch had to start this thread, Its no different to any of the other NZ v Ireland threads, in other words its an argument about Kidney or Irish selections.

aucklandlaurie wrote: What I dont understand is why Notch had to start this thread, Its no different to any of the other NZ v Ireland threads, in other words its an argument about Kidney or Irish selections.

Some of us are actually interested in a debate and don't want a thread to be hijacked by people who ruin threads with provincial bickering. I know it's hard for you to imagine Laurie- you'd have to have a team completely under performing team and fans who bitterly oppose any criticism of players from 'their team'.

I'm watching the soccer team now playing the world champions. When I came in the commentary were talking about how great the Irish lads were playing and that they were only down one nil.

What's the least amount that the Irish rugby team could lose to NZ and be spoken of this way? Aren't they great they're only losing by five points..None of us expected Ireland to win against NZ so what scoreline would qualify as an achievement?

aucklandlaurie wrote: What I dont understand is why Notch had to start this thread, Its no different to any of the other NZ v Ireland threads, in other words its an argument about Kidney or Irish selections.

This is much better than the other thread, and I am happy Notch made it. It deals with what Kidney is doing to the team, what the team needs, and what we want for the future. The other thread is just a provincial war, and frankly it is so tiresome.

It isn't some Kidney bashing thread either, if you have read it, many posters are very respectful towards him.

Rory
I did read it, I did think Sin e , has done real well hes had a pretty good posse tracking him for a week now and no ones laid a hand on him.

Gota admit though I dont understand half of it.

You don't want to understand, you are lucky not knowing. It is a complete head melt.

All I know is that I'm glad New Zealand is playing the Irelands Rugby team on Saturday night and not their team from 606 v2.

Good old Sin E..... I've been Sin e'd on countless occaisions over the years, on here and the old 606 boards... it's not a pleasant experience....but it is incredibly funny when its happening to someone else .....

Yeah I always found it funny until recently.. when I have been on the receiving end. You literally want to strangle something.

Don't I know it Rory! ...