Super Rugby: the Lions vs Kings fiasco

by Mr Fishpaste Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:36 am

First topic message reminder :

So let's have some predictions: What's going to happen? Will the Kings replace the Lions and will they do any better? or will SA field 6 teams?

And is there anyone with any insight as to what the 'reasoning' is behind the Kings inclusion? (I use the word 'reasoning' loosely, because it is quite presumptious to assume that those in SARU have any powers of reasoning at all!) My own conspiracy theory is that it was , perhaps, a trade off: the Boks can have a 'non-transformed' coach (white Afrikaans) without anyone kicking up a fuss if the Kings are included in Super Rugby, hence keeping the Watson clan quiet! I don't know though,....what do you think?

by fa0019 Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:33 pm

I'm going to start supporting Australia? Streuth!

by **Biltong** Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:35 pm

No mate, they are the GOLD and green.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:28 pm

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Oops! Now the Kings are denying the deal and maintain they're still going to play Super Rugby in 2013....ah yes, SA sports administration at its best!

So court cases down in SA too (along with Wales, pontypool, and England, london welsh). I know it is a professional game now but it seems rather Poopie that teams and unions can't get along anymore.

by formerly known as Sam Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:14 pm

Thats near 200K GBP per year.... there isn't another player in SA who earns that from his club alone.... and he isn't the sort of player to draw the crowds.

I'd be surprised if there were many players in the UK earning that in fact

I'd say that only the international level flankers from top tier countries would be earning around that much. Generally the big cash is spent on the props with the rest normally under the £200k mark. As an indication the much lauded Billy Twelvetrees was only offered £100k by Tigers to renew his contract and ended up signing for £150k at Glaws which was considered a big signing. Sounds like Watson isn't losing out by being in SA.

Haha, yes Rory, Deon Fourie is a hooker, 5 of their first choice back rowers are injured, now with their Canadian backrower not entitled to play in the knock out rounds I think Allistair Coetzee wanted to experiment to see if Deon could handle it, Imust say he did very well on the weekend

From what I gather Biltong most of SA's hookers start out as either flankers or centres. Can't imagine it would be a massive stretch for many of them to go into the backrow. Got to be grateful for it as I think it might have gifted Tigers the best hooker we've had in about 5 years (Tom Youngs England under 20 IC convinced to play hooker by Meyer).

by Mr Fishpaste Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:Oops! Now the Kings are denying the deal and maintain they're still going to play Super Rugby in 2013....ah yes, SA sports administration at its best!

So court cases down in SA too (along with Wales, pontypool, and England, london welsh). I know it is a professional game now but it seems rather Poopie that teams and unions can't get along anymore.

No court case as far as I'm aware. Just a mistaken communication. Accidently said: "we've accepted R40 million to stay out of Super Rugby" when they meant to say: "We're still in Super Rugby and have never even heard of the number 40 million!"

by Morgannwg Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:03 pm

Was Puke Watson really on all that money playing in an SA 3rd division club? Where did it come from?

by **Biltong** Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:19 pm

He still is.

by Morgannwg Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Where do they get that kind of money? He must really be some sort of hero down the Eastern Cape... IMO, the SARU should distance themselves as far away from him (and Cheeky) as possible, afterall, he did say he wanted to throw up on the jersey. Wonder what Matfield and Smit thought of that?

by **Biltong** Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:26 pm

Well he wasn't made to feel very welcome when he joined the squad, from what I have read he was also seen as a negative influence in the squad.

SARU pays the salary from reports I read earlier in the year

by pioden gorllewin Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:50 am

being posted on twitter that the kings are 100% in - does anyone know how accurate this information is?

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:22 am

From what I read it will only be clarified in the next week.

Will see if I can find details

by pioden gorllewin Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:32 am

thanks biltong.

was posted by a south african rugby agent on twitter who seemed pretty confident it was 100% happening.

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:02 am

this was placed yesterday on the Supersport site.

The Golden Lions Rugby Union face a tough, telling seven days that could well determine the future of the once-proud Union in the coming few years.

While their team made a good start in their defence of the Absa Currie Cup title, the administration will be on tenterhooks this coming week as both the results of a lengthy arbitration process with franchise partners the Leopards and Pumas draws to an end, while on Thursday the Lions should know if they will be a Super Rugby franchise in 2013 or not.

The impact of both results will not only have a massive financial impact for the Lions, their players and fans, but also have an impact on their reputation as a franchise, their continued support in the Super Rugby series, including sponsorships and other related activities.

However, after several years of being the whipping boys of Super Rugby, and some inept financial management in the franchise, at least whatever the outcome, the once-proud Rugby Union can finally know where it stands and move on.

Having secured contracts with the majority of their Currie Cup squad for 2013, the Lions are hopeful that a positive outcome will be in the offing on Thursday, especially as Saru’s General Council has balked on making a final decision for next season’s Super Rugby participants, despite declaring more than once that the EP Kings would participate in Super Rugby in 2013.

The decision has been postponed several times, with the likely losers being the Lions if the Kings do play Super Rugby next year, although there has been little clarity as well about how long such a situation would last and what promotion/relegation prospects there would be, if any.

With governing body Sanzar reiterating they would not be willing to look at a sixth South African franchise before 2015, the Lions have called on the situation to be sorted out until that date, and not just a one-season deal as many expect to happen.

MURKY WATERS

But the waters have become murky with reports last month of a deal between the South African Rugby Union and the Kings, to further develop the Kings for a later entry into the Southern Hemisphere competition, something both parties have actively denied.

Lions Acting CEO Ruben Moggee is in an unenviable position of having to try and sort out the Lions financial mess, with the sword of Damocles hanging over his head in terms of tournament participation, and is hoping for a positive outcome this week.

“We think it is definitely very important for a decision to be made, and for Saru to stick to it,” Moggee told supersport.com, “And whatever the outcome, for us to have finality about the future. It has been very difficult for us to run the business and contract our players and to motivate them with such an uncertain future lying ahead of us.

“We have heard stories about possible deals, but whatever they were, unfortunately such negotiations were done without us and any agreements would be solely between the Kings and SA Rugby.

"We will patiently await the meeting, we have given our submissions to Saru as to why we should stay a Super Rugby franchise and we know they have evaluated them. Hopefully we will have our answer soon.

"But whatever the answer is, we need it to go beyond just 2013, and rather as a decision that will bind all parties until 2015 when the next Sanzar contract will be negotiated.”

The other massive decision that will take place within the next seven days is the results of the arbitration between the Lions and their franchise partners, the Leopards and Pumas.

The other two franchises claim they are owed amounts totaling R6-million as their percentage share in the profits of the Super Rugby franchise, something the Lions have never paid.

The Lions in turn deny this, saying there was never a franchise agreement, and now that the arguments have been given in the arbitration hearing a result is expected either late this week or early next week.

Either way the Lions have again said they would love to have finality as – as Moggee puts it – “there are enough challenges to contend with elsewhere”.

“We have to hand in our final answers today and perhaps by Friday or Monday we will have a verdict. We’re hopeful, but as soon as clever lawyers are involved, you never know. It is also about a decision that was in 2006 where none of the current parties were involved, but we are confident,” Moggee added.

“We want to move forward and want this matter finalised and will bind ourselves by the arbitration’s findings, whatever they are.”

Either way things will be tense at the headquarters this week. The Lions are in a fight for survival and they know it. This week could well determine the outcome of that fight.

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:06 pm

Something tells me there will be 6 SA teams in there conference but only five of them in S15. ie. they will play the extra two games at different times during off weeks. Money talks and I can't see them scapping the lions if they plan to push for six at the next S15 talks.
Does S15 deceide when the conference games are played or does the union

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:07 pm

just to clarify the 6th team will only be in the SA conference in South Africa and will not count towards any S15 points

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:11 pm

If that is the case it does present some challenges.

Where will they fit these fixtures?

To have the Franchises play an extra two matches will be very difficult to add to the already busy schedule and the eason is tough enough as it is.

My personal opinion is they will put the Kings in for next year, assist the Lions with restructuring next year, and tell all the Franchises in the Currie Cup next year, the qualification for Super rugby for 2014 will be the top five teams of Currie Cup 2013

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:56 pm

But aren't some of the currie teams under the same S15 team.

I know that it isn't good to add in the extra team but it wasn't good to give a 5th team to Aus etc.

I assume that the S15 play warmup games and this could replace the warm up games.

I am sure that you will agree that if it was about sense this situation wouldn't be as it is.

How have the kings done in the currie cup last year and the year before.

If the SARU went for the top five teams in the currie represent them in the S15 it could give them more power to bargin with S15 but make their teams weaker.

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:10 pm

Yes, this mess is all unecessary and is all due the SARU making premature promises to the Kings.

It is also a mess because the Kings can't really justify their inclusion into the Super XV as they have done literally nothing in the lower competitions to justify their inclusion, they haven't even won the Vodacom Cup (4th tier) or the Currie Cup 1st division (3rd tier) in the last 4-5 years.

They have also not developed the local talent which was the whole reason for their suggested promotion to Super rugby.

They haven't even managed to promote themselves to the Currie Cup Premier division.

This whole thing is one big joke and typical of how SARU ran rugby in SA in the recent past.

Politics and corporate politics, nepotism and incompetent administrators have led us to a point where the new administration must now sort out a mess that was created in 2005, otherwise we will find SA become the laughing stock with a team in Super rugby that can't beat Vodacom teams and the whole justification for them to be included is for the development of the black talent in the eastern Cape to be the biggest farce in recent history.

It is frankly pathetic.

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:22 pm

So the team from argentia who won the second division beat the Kings.

Surely there was an existing team that covered PE as it is big enough though I know it is in the middle of nowhere as I have gone there twice once from Durban and once from Jburg via Bloom

It definately seems jobs for the boys. You would think they would annonce it that the kings would have to make it to the Currie cup to be allowed in while the lowest S15 over the 4 years would be droped.

the more I read about the lions and money the better it might be for them but surely that area needs a S15 more then PE

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:29 pm

Yes, I would prefer if things stayed as they are, but politics influence things greatly here.

The Kings are supposed to be the regional team that is fed from PE (They were the elephants), South Western Districts (George) and Border (East London), so it is supposed to be fed from those three provincial teams.

But essentially at the moment it is really just PE under a new name.

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:36 pm

Sounds alot like Ponty and wales.

If the lions went under would the bulls then have petoria and Jburg, that is alot of money and base

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:41 pm

No that won't happen, The Lions would most likely get their house in order and wait for the new expansion in 2016.

They may however lose a number of players.

Some of their youngsters who have made a name for themsleves will be gone, players like Jaco Taute, Alwyn Hollenbach, Michael BOndisio, Josh Strauss, Derrick Minnie would most likely sign new contracts with other Franchises.

They have alreay lost the under 20 JWC lock Willemse to the Bulls I think.

by Brendan Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:56 pm

I just think if they go it will be hard to get them back. No one wants to go to a place where money is an issue

I do think that there will be at least a 16th team in 2016 if not more. Could be interesting to see what the Agries demand

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets Very Happy

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:01 pm

According to this article the Lions and Kings should find out one way or another who is staying up next week. It's a really clusterf*** and a mad situation to be in this far into their off season.
"Johannesburg - The Golden Lions Rugby Union faces a tough, telling seven days that could well determine the future of the once-proud union in the coming few years, reports SuperSport.com."
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Lions-set-to-hear-S15-fate-20120813

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:02 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).

Why do you think he has been called up to the BOk team this weekend? Whistle

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:23 pm

Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).
Why do you think he has been called up to the BOk team this weekend?

So he can get a cap and experience of top rugby to prepare him for his new Scarlets career Whistle

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:29 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).
Why do you think he has been called up to the BOk team this weekend?

So he can get a cap and experience of top rugby to prepare him for his new Scarlets career

Super Rugby: the Lions vs Kings fiasco - Page 2 Smiley-laughing021

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:46 pm

Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).
Why do you think he has been called up to the BOk team this weekend?

So he can get a cap and experience of top rugby to prepare him for his new Scarlets career

Seriously that is why their capping him, to stop him playing for Wales in the 2015 RWC

by Smirnoffpriest Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:04 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Don't forget Pat Cilliers to the Scarlets

It is an almighty mess isn't it? I found an article on line that said a decision would be made in the next 7 days (I posted it on another thread and will try and find it now).
Why do you think he has been called up to the BOk team this weekend?

So he can get a cap and experience of top rugby to prepare him for his new Scarlets career

Seriously that is why their capping him, to stop him playing for Wales in the 2015 RWC

Nah their just scared about the awesome potential the Scarlets will have when he signs, the SARFU know that the Scarlets will be so good that they'll blow everything else away and make SA's laboured international rugby style look pitiful...

by pioden gorllewin Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:05 pm

to be fair to pat cillier he always indicated he wanted to be capped by SA. that was one of the stumbling blocks for him joining us. we wanted him as a time serving player and he wanted to be capped by SA. so we offered him reduced terms to come over as a capped player. so fair play to the guy, i respect him for nailing his colours to the mast.

on a side issue biltong this Alwyn Hollenbach has a good welsh name. any welsh ancestry? Whistle

by **Biltong** Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:46 pm

No mate he is true South African.

On the Cilliers situation, the reason why he has been called up is in fact that he was already approached by Meyer in the first half of the Super XV, due to the fact that we have a shortage of back up tight head pros and Coenie Oosthuizen who can scrum on both sides is out for the year, Cilliers is the only other decent prop that can play both sides of the scrum, and he needs to be tested.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:40 pm

http://www.planet-rugby.co.za/story/0,25883,3824_7995821,00.html

It's official: The South African Rugby Union on Thursday confirmed that the Kings will replace the Lions in Super Rugby next year.

"A SARU General Meeting of the member provinces decided that the top four teams in the South African Conference in 2012 (Stormers, Bulls, Sharks and Cheetahs) will join the Southern Kings in the 2013 tournament."

by Smirnoffpriest Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:47 pm

Well nice of them to finally make a decision, lets see if they stick by it, they've made a right pigs ear of it though. Gotta feel really sorry for the Lions though, and from the article it says that this time there isn't going to be a play off between the Lions and Kings to determine who is in the SXV, but there will be next time (from what Bil and others say, probably coz SARFU know the Kings would lose).

Madness, but on a positive this now opens up loads of Lions players to sign for the Scarlets! Smile

by Smirnoffpriest Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:50 pm

Hoskins says "The provinces asked for a rugby solution and we believe that this was the fairest and most transparent method to respond to what is undoubtedly a less than ideal situation," he said.

Billtong may have a thought or two to share on this...

Run

by FerN Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:52 pm

Probably fair considering that they did promise they were going to play in 2013. Maybe now the Stormers will finally be able to get a 4 try bonus point.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:01 pm

The Lions, who finished bottom of the South African Conference, will have the chance to regain their status in 12 months' time.

The Executive Council had previously determined that the bottom team in 2013 would play in a two-legged promotion and relegation series against the relegated franchise. The promotion/relegation series will also be in place in 2014 and 2015 - at which point the broadcast contract expires.

"All rugby provinces have been consistently in support of the need for an Eastern Cape team in the Vodacom Super Rugby competition," said SARU President Oregan Hoskins.

"That decision was first taken in 2005 but their inclusion has twice been postponed.
"We made a commitment to the Kings to include them in 2013 and rugby has delivered on that commitment. The franchise represents more clubs than any other region - apart from the Stormers - and contains numerous leading rugby schools. It has been starved of top-class rugby competition for a decade and a half and now it has the chance to show what it can do."

So in otherwords the Kings better make sure they get their stuff in order in their time in super-rugby, as the Lions are gonna be rested up for a season (in comparison) and make the play-off a real nightmare for the Kings (unless they pull something out the bag).

by Smirnoffpriest Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:15 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
The Lions, who finished bottom of the South African Conference, will have the chance to regain their status in 12 months' time.

The Executive Council had previously determined that the bottom team in 2013 would play in a two-legged promotion and relegation series against the relegated franchise. The promotion/relegation series will also be in place in 2014 and 2015 - at which point the broadcast contract expires.

"All rugby provinces have been consistently in support of the need for an Eastern Cape team in the Vodacom Super Rugby competition," said SARU President Oregan Hoskins.

"That decision was first taken in 2005 but their inclusion has twice been postponed.
"We made a commitment to the Kings to include them in 2013 and rugby has delivered on that commitment. The franchise represents more clubs than any other region - apart from the Stormers - and contains numerous leading rugby schools. It has been starved of top-class rugby competition for a decade and a half and now it has the chance to show what it can do."

So in otherwords the Kings better make sure they get their stuff in order in their time in super-rugby, as the Lions are gonna be rested up for a season (in comparison) and make the play-off a real nightmare for the Kings (unless they pull something out the bag).

Or unless the Kings used their new increase in money to sign most of the Lions players and squad players from other franchises, while the Lions lose theirs...

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:26 pm

Thats true i guess we find out if there is any loyalty there. After all it should only be one season.

by **Biltong** Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:37 pm

The South African Rugby Union (SARU) on Thursday confirmed South Africa’s participants in Vodacom Super Rugby at a General Meeting of the member provinces.

The top four teams in the South African Conference in 2012 (DHL Stormers, Vodacom Bulls, The Sharks and Toyota Cheetahs) will join the Southern Kings in the 2013 tournament.

The teams were confirmed after the General Meeting accepted a proposal first tabled by the Executive Council in January. The proposal was that: “The franchise occupying the lowest log position of the five franchises at the end of 2012 would be relegated.”

The MTN Lions, who finished bottom of the South African Conference, will have the chance to regain their status in 12 months’ time. The Executive Council had previously determined that the bottom team in 2013 would play in a two-legged promotion and relegation series against the relegated franchise. The promotion/relegation series will also be in place in 2014 and 2015 – at which point the broadcast contract expires.

“All rugby provinces have been consistently in support of the need for an Eastern Cape team in the Vodacom Super Rugby competition,” said Mr Oregan Hoskins, president of SARU. “That decision was first taken in 2005 but their inclusion has twice been postponed.

“We made a commitment to the Kings to include them in 2013 and rugby has delivered on that commitment. The franchise represents more clubs than any other region – apart from the Stormers – and contains numerous leading rugby schools. It has been starved of top-class rugby competition for a decade and a half and now it has the chance to show what it can do.”

Mr Hoskins said that SANZAR’s decision to grant the 15th franchise to Melbourne in 2011 – rather than the Southern Kings – had created a dilemma for SARU. He said that the organisation and players had wanted a “rugby solution” to accommodate six franchises in five places and this had been delivered, as challenging as it was for the relegated team.

“The provinces asked for a rugby solution and we believe that this was the fairest and most transparent method to respond to what is undoubtedly a less than ideal situation,” he said. “We also canvassed Vodacom Super Rugby players before the start of the season, through the Players’ Association, and this was their preferred mechanism.

“We will continue to push the case for early expansion within SANZAR. Negotiations on a new broadcasting rights deal will begin shortly and the inclusion of six South African franchises will be firmly top of our agenda.”

Jurie Roux, the CEO of SARU, said that the decision to apply a promotion and relegation system from 2013 was standard practice in sport.

“We operate promotion and relegation in all our Absa Currie Cup competitions, with the bottom-placed team being relegated unless it wins a play off,” said Roux.

“We lobbied hard with our partners in Australia and New Zealand to expand to 16 teams with the inclusion of a sixth South African franchise from next season, but they had no incentive to change what has been a winning format.

“Our strategic goal is to have six strong franchises covering the whole of South Africa and this decision keeps all of them in play on an annual basis.”

The Lions president, Kevin de Klerk, responded in a statement with the following:

“We are extremely disappointed at this result. This is a very unfortunate decision which will result in a team taking part in a competition without needing to qualify on rugby merits. We will take time to consider this decision and then to plan our response that best protects our players, staff, stakeholders and supporters”.

by **Biltong** Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:41 pm

Well this is the most logical solution, however one thing is amiss here.

If the lowest qualified Franchise next year is only relegated if they lose the home and away relegation and promotion matches (most likely the Kings) then is it not fair that the Lions get the same chance now?

In my view SARU knows that this way they appease the politicians and Cheeky Watson by giving the Kings one season of Super rugby.

The Lions will beat them and get back the next year.

Still sucks for the Lions, they can't fight their way into next year because they don't get to play a promotion relegation match against the Kings.

The big laugh now will be to see the Kings' squad for next year.

by emack2 Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:38 pm

The farce ended as predicted,Lions booted out to accomadate the Kings,the SARFU.Painted themselves into a corner this comprimise suits neither side it infers either !.The Kings will have one year in 2013 thus ful filling the promise IFthey lose the playoffs next year.In the event of one match each what then
Lions have been so poor for so long they don`t deserve to be in the Super series.IF a better team exists it deserves a chance the idea SARFU could just impose another team on the comp from 2013 was a non runner from day one.Since the SARFU made such a bog of it they should pay the Lions contracts for 2013 to see there players are not poached.Come 2016 if SA want to break with the SH sides and go north it would be sad,But not the end of the world.Drop one Aussie side revert to a Super 9 and you could have a complete tournament home and away matches and a league style tournament.Far fairer than the current format and I would be surprised if the Tv companiies would`nt back it.

by FerN Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:01 am

Biltong wrote:Well this is the most logical solution, however one thing is amiss here.

If the lowest qualified Franchise next year is only relegated if they lose the home and away relegation and promotion matches (most likely the Kings) then is it not fair that the Lions get the same chance now?

I am fine with the Lions not getting that chance now. The Kings would need at least one season to establish themselves. I see they want to appeal to get it to three years deal before the playoffs. I think one year free is fair.

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