Does ability define the level a pro wrestler can reach? Should it?

As Raw approaches it one 1000 episode I can’t help but look back through the years at some of the triumphs and failures of the WWE roster both past and present, ability or talent is obviously paramount to having a successful career, application, ambition and determination to reach that top level are also big contributing factors, but are these attributes/mind-sets the rule or the except to the rule when analysing those who have climbed the mountain and made it to the very top?
 
Do pro wrestlers actually need to be that talented in the ring or on the mic to be a world champion or indeed the ‘man’, one of the biggest stars the industry has ever created, John Cena would suggest an emphatic no! John has a move-set to challenge that of the Brooklyn Brawler and the mic ability to rival John Morrison yet Cena is adored by millions, a hero to young children all over the world and a pin up boy loved by women, his merchandise flies of the stands and sell’s in record numbers every time his t-shirt changes colour! So how on god’s green earth is this possible? You apply this logic to most other forms of entertainment or business and you generally come up with the same answers, the cream nine times out of ten rises to the top and those who possess the required talents in their preferred profession usual achieve. So given Cena’s ability and obvious lack of talent should he be applauded for reaching such heights, is John the ultimate underdog, the hard luck story come good? Is he the blueprint for what a lot of hard work and determination can achieve? However despite all his hard work, despite his charity good deeds and his ‘never say die’ attitude the likes of me and you and the IWC hate Cena with a passion, but this wasn’t always the case. When Cena burst on to the scene with his rapper gimmick and I’m not ashamed to say that I actually quite liked it, it felt like something fresh, it looked relevant and people got behind him, there was a tide of popular opinion that Cena should be the next world champion leading into his match with JBL and after the win Cena was lauded as the herald of new generation, some actually referred to him and Orton as this era’s ‘Rock and Austin’. Cena at that time had the popular sway he had the crowd behind him and not just the kids and women but a legion of older more mature fans who saw him a new fresh option to that of JBL, HHH, Lesnar and HBK etc. therefore how did things go so wrong for him yet go so right at the same time? In my opinion it’s obvious to see that John sees himself as the ‘man’ the face of the company and to all in tense and purposes the top dog of pro wrestling but it’s equally obvious to see is the frustration that many of his once admirers have turned against him, John probably feels that it has become cool to boo him but I believe this opinion runs much deeper than a desire to be cool. Pro wrestling fans have become bored with the telegraphed Cena victory after Cena victory which has been rehashed and re-run for the best part of 7 years now, I’m not talking about kids and women but pro wrestling fans, it appears that the WWE will not turn Cena heal just to appease the frustrated mature, attitude era loving fan, they are determined to keep their cash cow elevated to the point where the most prestigious title in the history of the business play second fiddle to that of a John Cena match or feud which in my opinion is one of the most ludicrous moves the WWE have ever made. I appreciate that Cena does not shoulder the full blame for this the WWE needed a new star, a new face and they chose John to put their stock in however this boils down to my original question at the top of the page, Does ability define the level a pro wrestler can reach? Should it?
 
There have been some fantastic, athletically talented in ring performers over the years that could wrestler Cena under the table but never got their shot, never got the backing that Cena did, the one that springs to mind is Shelton Benjamin, a performer of highest calibre that ended up getting released as creative had nothing for him, Shelton doesn’t possess a great deal  of charisma but his ability and talent were second to none at his height in the company yet this wasn’t enough to even keep his job yet alone win the big one. In a top trumps scenario Cena would be ahead on Charisma and mic work but Shelton’s ability attributes alone would put him above Cena.
 
So history tells us that you don’t need to be the most talented or even talented period, but the question I want to open up to the forum is, should the most talented wrestlers reach the top level be it mic talent or in ring talent? Or are we quite happy with a non-talent should the story lines or angles entertain us?
 
Pitch in with your examples, what wrestlers had the ability but never got the shot, which wrestlers didn’t have the ability to deserve the push they received?
 

I don't think ability is such a big thing. I think it is all about how you sell and develop your persona and character. If you can make a story line intersting with how you put yourself accross that genuinely should suffice

AntLord wrote:I don't think ability is such a big thing. I think it is all about how you sell and develop your persona and character. If you can make a story line intersting with how you put yourself accross that genuinely should suffice

When I refer to ability i mean either in ring or mic work, surely as you say selling and developing a persona/character should suffice- isnt a certain ammount of ability required to make this happen. looking back at all the great characters they all had the talent to get over and make themselves interesting and relevant, my argument is that cena doesnt seam to have an ounce of talent yet still climbed to the top in one of quickest rises ever, based on your theory: did he develop a persona to get him their in your opinion?

I meant that in ring ability doesnt necessarily matter

You also answered your own question, he isn't too great in the ring so yes, his persona got him to where he is

But imo his persona sucks, i liked the rapper gimmick at the time but once they changed him into super cena i found him boring and stale! Did cena's ability to develop his persona put him where he is or was he just booked into that position due to his marketability and clean cut image?

I'm really just looking for some opinions here, i'm not starting an argument just want to get a debate going if that is even possible anymore

Cena doesn't seem to have an ounce of talent? Thats a bit harsh isn't it?

I totally understand where the critics are coming from re Cena, he is not THE BEST in the ring and he is not THE BEST on the mic (although at times I feel he can be) but to say he has no talent? Thats ludicrous.

He got pushed. Thats all you need, the WWE pushed him and they still haven't stopped pushing him. The casual fan, the gullable kid and the woman there for some eye candy have taken to him. Wrestling fans haven't. Simple as that.

I actually like John Cena and would be happy for him to remain in WWE as I believe he does bring something to the company, however he should not be the face of the company or the main event every night because he isn't THAT good.

MIG wrote:Cena doesn't seem to have an ounce of talent? Thats a bit harsh isn't it?

I totally understand where the critics are coming from re Cena, he is not THE BEST in the ring and he is not THE BEST on the mic (although at times I feel he can be) but to say he has no talent? Thats ludicrous.

He got pushed. Thats all you need, the WWE pushed him and they still haven't stopped pushing him. The casual fan, the gullable kid and the woman there for some eye candy have taken to him. Wrestling fans haven't. Simple as that.

I actually like John Cena and would be happy for him to remain in WWE as I believe he does bring something to the company, however he should not be the face of the company or the main event every night because he isn't THAT good.

Fiar point and i am being slightly harsh on cena, he can produce on the mic when he's fired up but the majority of the time he is lazy, stupid and no sells certain situations i.e brocks return. My main pinch point in regards to cena is his ability to put on a decent match- he has three moves and his finisher is a firemans carry! come on! is this really the best the business has to offer as its top star?! as CM Punk said its the perception that he's the best that I hate i know the iwc doesnt see it that way but creative does.

There's a recent article on 'John Cena's Top 50 Matches'. There are more than a handful of matches in that list which i'd argue prove that he is more than capable in terms of in ring ability. Sometimes he's an absolute douche in ring, but when he turns up and brings his best, John Cena can most definately go.

Do pro wrestlers actually need to be that talented in the ring or on the mic to be a world champion or indeed the ‘man’, one of the biggest stars the industry has ever created, John Cena would suggest an emphatic no! John has a move-set to challenge that of the Brooklyn Brawler and the mic ability to rival John Morrison yet Cena is adored by millions, a hero to young children all over the world and a pin up boy loved by women, his merchandise flies of the stands and sell’s in record numbers every time his t-shirt changes colour! So how on god’s green earth is this possible?

First off i usually bash Cena for being predictable etc but have to disagree with the comment.
Yes he does 5 moves but that is no Cena's fault its what WWE want, he can put on a great show and in the past has done so. You only have to look at what hogan did in the 80's was the same and as a young'en bought into it. yet Hogan's work in japan in the 70's shown he could be quite good in the ring.

Also Cena is good on the Mic as shown recently with Fued with The Rock. i used to like the thug life raps he did and have to say loved the 5 questions segement he used to do on WWE.com brilliant stuff.

I will agree though that you dont have to be the best in ring perfomer or the best on the Mic to make it to the top.

One guy who had the ability and was good on the mic is Mr Perfect but due to the times and attitude of the era never got a real shot at the top.

Another is Jake the snake Roberts now maybe not WWF champ material at the time but these days would probably be multiple world champ. Its a real shame he NEVER won any belt. A good worker in the ring and fab on the stick.

should be loads more

MtotheC wrote:

MIG wrote:Cena doesn't seem to have an ounce of talent? Thats a bit harsh isn't it?

I totally understand where the critics are coming from re Cena, he is not THE BEST in the ring and he is not THE BEST on the mic (although at times I feel he can be) but to say he has no talent? Thats ludicrous.

He got pushed. Thats all you need, the WWE pushed him and they still haven't stopped pushing him. The casual fan, the gullable kid and the woman there for some eye candy have taken to him. Wrestling fans haven't. Simple as that.

I actually like John Cena and would be happy for him to remain in WWE as I believe he does bring something to the company, however he should not be the face of the company or the main event every night because he isn't THAT good.

Fiar point and i am being slightly harsh on cena, he can produce on the mic when he's fired up but the majority of the time he is lazy, stupid and no sells certain situations i.e brocks return. My main pinch point in regards to cena is his ability to put on a decent match- he has three moves and his finisher is a firemans carry! come on! is this really the best the business has to offer as its top star?! as CM Punk said its the perception that he's the best that I hate i know the iwc doesnt see it that way but creative does.

I think its creatives/the boards fault more so than Cena. They decided to push him, either he should already have had the talent there along with the amazing finisher etc etc or they should have trained him and improved him along the way.

To be honest when CM Punk and the WWE Championship matches are playing second fiddle to matches like John Cena vs Kane and John Cena vs Big Show then I can kind of see why Cena is lazy. Not that I think its right.
He is almost un touchable as the face of the company therefore, why should he improve or make any more effort? Because of his love for the company, thats why.
He needs to change soon, he either needs to turn heel or take a break. Because if things continue the way they are people will eventually switch off.

I actually thought the other day, what about a Cena heel turn on RAW1000 against Punk? I think when we all expected it recently it didn't happen BECAUSE we were expecting it. No one has mentioned it for a while now. What better time to do it for shock value and history wise? (1000th show)

MtotheC wrote:But imo his persona sucks, i liked the rapper gimmick at the time but once they changed him into super cena i found him boring and stale! Did cena's ability to develop his persona put him where he is or was he just booked into that position due to his marketability and clean cut image?

I'm really just looking for some opinions here, i'm not starting an argument just want to get a debate going if that is even possible anymore

I passed my opinion, dont get tetchy about it!

Another idea I just posted in another thread kind of works here too -

Maybe they have done this all on purpose? Maybe they've kept Punk as second fiddle to Cena to show Cena is the man, then when they face each other at Raw1000, Punk goes over Cena clean and the torch is passed?

Long shot I know.

I reckon Cena could disapear tomorrow and we wouldnt notice. The product would neither improve or decline.

Just shrink Cena down in his green T-shirt and he's on a par with Hornswoggle.

AntLord wrote:

MtotheC wrote:But imo his persona sucks, i liked the rapper gimmick at the time but once they changed him into super cena i found him boring and stale! Did cena's ability to develop his persona put him where he is or was he just booked into that position due to his marketability and clean cut image?

I'm really just looking for some opinions here, i'm not starting an argument just want to get a debate going if that is even possible anymore

I passed my opinion, dont get tetchy about it!

Ok thanks for your opinion, but in the spirt of the forum i was diagreeing with you and then asking for your opinion on that in return, if you've exhausted the extent of your opinion with your first reply then no probs thanks for chipping in.

@ Mr H... fair enough in seven years cena has managed to pull off a couple of showpiece matches when pushed to that level by his collegues eg. punk and rock but surely a wrestler in his position as the biggest star in the business he should be far more consistant?

@ MIG... I like the cena heel turn idea at RAW 1000 would be epic if it happen i dont see though, it's been teased so many times but my thoughts are that neither cena or creative/the powers that be actually want it to happen

Apparently creative were told to come up with a 'knock your socks off' angle for the summer. Similar to the Nexus and Punk angles of 2010 and 2011.

Lots of speculation that they are pulling the trigger on this at the end of the show next week.

I wouldnt rule out a Cena heel turn. Or even a Punk heel turn for that matter where he'd side with Heyman.

Samo wrote:I reckon Cena could disapear tomorrow and we wouldnt notice.

Oh I think we'd notice Samo, WWE might actually have to put a WWE / WHC title match in the main event of a pay per view!!!


I think that in Cena's case he does have ability - in the ring and on the mic - but he's just so damn inconsistent. When he's good he can be very, very good and when he's bad he's cringeworthy. You never know what you're going to get with him, one week he can cut a blistering promo and wrestle to a good standard, the next week he's cracking poopie jokes and looking absolutely clueless in the ring.

Mr H wrote:Apparently creative were told to come up with a 'knock your socks off' angle for the summer.

Pity they aren't coming up with a 'knock your brains out' angle for the summer.


The return of Braden Walker!

Mr H wrote:
Apparently creative were told to come up with a 'knock your socks off' angle for the summer.


Pity they aren't coming up with a 'knock your brains out' angle for the summer.


The return of Braden Walker

Maybe its Brimstone....