Whatever happened to the PriceWaterhouseCooper report?

This report was due in May/June but I haven't heard anything about is findings?

The regions and WRU are making changes but is this in responce to this, or has it been swept under the carpet.

It was supposed to look into the regions financial vialibity, if bounders needed changed, the whole regional set up etc etc

Anyone got any news?

Changes are in response to findings so far as i know.

are they ever going to publish it?

My guess is they hope we've forgotten about it

Nothing surprises me anymore, obviously the findings didnt back up what was being spouted, so it'll neve see the light of day, well until the next hissy fit and one of those greedy bar stewards threatens to leak it blah blah blah!

I could write my own report, it'd go something along the lines of...

The regions are struggling, can't make money or draw crowds they have abused since the idea of regionalism.

The development pathways are constsantly playing catch up to the better SH systems.

Most people involved within our sport are far from proffessional.

The WRU still envokes a 'jobs for the boys' policy.

The petty squabbles, arguments and greed at inception have set the regional idea back 20 years.

Boundries are a joke.

50% of the population disenfranchised by the sports governing body.

I could go on all day but won't, sorry about my pesimism, I am having really bad experiences with the game, governing body and regions at the minute!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nothing surprises me anymore, obviously the findings didnt back up what was being spouted, so it'll neve see the light of day, well until the next hissy fit and one of those greedy bar stewards threatens to leak it blah blah blah!

I could write my own report, it'd go something along the lines of...

The regions are struggling, can't make money or draw crowds they have abused since the idea of regionalism.

The development pathways are constsantly playing catch up to the better SH systems.

Most people involved within our sport are far from proffessional.

The WRU still envokes a 'jobs for the boys' policy.

The petty squabbles, arguments and greed at inception have set the regional idea back 20 years.

Boundries are a joke.

50% of the population disenfranchised by the sports governing body.

I could go on all day but won't, sorry about my pesimism, I am having really bad experiences with the game, governing body and regions at the minute!!!

A lot of this is BS. You're really on one this weekend aren't you?

Definitely don't agree with 'setting the regional idea 20 years backwards' nor the point about development pathways. Those pathways have been in for one year and we see the first ever U20s team to beat the Baby Blacks and Wales U20s highest ever finish in the JWC; not to mention the conveyor belt of rugby players which doesn't look like coming to a halt anytime soon.

Morgannwg wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nothing surprises me anymore, obviously the findings didnt back up what was being spouted, so it'll neve see the light of day, well until the next hissy fit and one of those greedy bar stewards threatens to leak it blah blah blah!

I could write my own report, it'd go something along the lines of...

The regions are struggling, can't make money or draw crowds they have abused since the idea of regionalism.

The development pathways are constsantly playing catch up to the better SH systems.

Most people involved within our sport are far from proffessional.

The WRU still envokes a 'jobs for the boys' policy.

The petty squabbles, arguments and greed at inception have set the regional idea back 20 years.

Boundries are a joke.

50% of the population disenfranchised by the sports governing body.

I could go on all day but won't, sorry about my pesimism, I am having really bad experiences with the game, governing body and regions at the minute!!!

A lot of this is BS. You're really on one this weekend aren't you?

Definitely don't agree with 'setting the regional idea 20 years backwards' nor the point about development pathways. Those pathways have been in for one year and we see the first ever U20s team to beat the Baby Blacks and Wales U20s highest ever finish in the JWC; not to mention the conveyor belt of rugby players which doesn't look like coming to a halt anytime soon.

Didn't we do ok in the RWC and Six nations too?

Welsh rugby at all levels is strengthening, improving the depth and quality throughout from grass roots bottom to three feathered top.

It is all making a huge difference.

At what cost, if the regions finally go bust and go out of business we will go backwards 20 years. I don't go with 50% being left out, it is more like 70% or more, with average crowds over the 4 regions being around less than 30K! Swansea City could get 30K crowds for every home game if their ground was big enough. Rugby is supposed to be our national support, sorry it is not it is football in 2012 thanks to the introduction of club based regional rugby (by name only).

glamorganalun wrote:thanks to the introduction of club based regional rugby (by name only).

"club based regional rugby by name only"? Talk sense when you're spinning your boring yarns. We get it that despite facts presented to you, you can't accept regions. Get a life and stop boring people with the same posts. I'm sure you, LD, Bluesman, Caserbelli (or whoever he is/was) and Jimmy Chod could form a lovely forum where you and your chums can give incorrect and repetitive arguments why regional rugby doesn't work.

Too many ignorant idiots who can't see the national team improvement is not the problem.

What was PWC's fee for writing this elusive report anyways?

Could have wiped out the combined regional debts with what it probably cost.

Casartelli wrote:What was PWC's fee for writing this elusive report anyways?

Could have wiped out the combined regional debts with what it probably cost.

Could it?

What was it?

What it is. What it shall be. What it was.

Shame...could've been an interesting thread...

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:Shame...could've been an interesting thread...

Yeah but sadly any thread that involves the WRU and money will end up being a thread about how the regions are a disgrace and should be called Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Ospreys (nobody ever calls tehm Swansea, even though by the standard super-club arguement they are).

I would like to see what the findings were and see if the new salary cap, the new prem setup, and the new system targetting key under 21 year-olds to provide specialist training etc have come from the report.

Obvious I know but personally I think Welsh rugby is being neglected in the north of the country.

Look where all the "regions" are.

Regions in my opinion just doesn't work in Wales.

North was dead (because of the clubs of the South and WRU) long before Regionalism. So I don't see your point.

beshocked wrote:Obvious I know but personally I think Welsh rugby is being neglected in the north of the country.

Look where all the "regions" are.

Regions in my opinion just doesn't work in Wales.

North Wales are in the process of having a region put in place, however they are doing this from the ground up, starting with the accademies, then getting a team into the Welsh Prem, then hopefully into the Rabo. The theory is that it will be a more sustainable way of running the region, and allowing them to develope a fan base etc. As opposed to throwing them in and saying sink or swim.

Also North Wales were being represented by the Scarlets (Along with pretty much 1/3 of the country) at the outset of regionalism, and the Scarlets did play at least 1 match a season (yeah I know Sarries will play more outside of England this season) in Wrexham. There was a real effort to try and involve the North (whilst not neglecting the West) and I remember Gareth Jenkins (Scarlets coach at the time) saying something about he spend more time on the road travelling up to the north, and back, than he did witht he team. Eventually the two split (supposedly at the request of the North, but IMO more mutual) as the Scarlets involvement there was hindering the chances of getting real North Wales region, and having to make an effort up North was hindering the Scarlets as they were starting to neglect relationships with the West.

Morgannwg my point is that you should try and get people in the North of Wales playing rugby. Rugby is supposedly the national sport of Wales (just look at the fervour when the national side plays) to neglect a chunk of the country isn't right.

Btw don't think I am picking on Wales, every country needs to do more to involve other parts of their country. France is too southern orientated, England doesn't do enough in the north, Italy is northern based etc.

Scarletspiderman fair enough. That's the right way to do it. What would a Northern region be called?

'Shocked - They are called RGC1404 (Rygbi Gogledd Cymru 1404) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGC_1404

What a name. Trips off the tongue nicely!

Also the nod to Glyndwr is interestin!

beshocked wrote:What a name. Trips off the tongue nicely!

Also the nod to Glyndwr is interestin!

Yeah it will be so easy to fit that into a chant.

They'll be known as the Gogs wouldn't they? Or just RGC.

NB Is Gogs offensive? It sounds like it should be but it's just from northerner isn't it?

EDIT: Neath-Swansea Ospreys or Newport-Gwent Dragons are hardly catchy.

Gog comes from gogledd which means North in Welsh.

Cymru Goledd - North Wales.

Neither is taffs as far as I know.

To be honest any word can be offensive if it is said in the right way, and anything can be taken innocently if said in the right way too. The amount of things that my nan used to call us when we were messy or being playfully naughty, she would be locked up for hate crimes if she said them in public nowadays (i said one of them to my daughter the other day and my wife had a fit!).

Risca Rev wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:thanks to the introduction of club based regional rugby (by name only).

"club based regional rugby by name only"? Talk sense when you're spinning your boring yarns. We get it that despite facts presented to you, you can't accept regions. Get a life and stop boring people with the same posts. I'm sure you, LD, Bluesman, Caserbelli (or whoever he is/was) and Jimmy Chod could form a lovely forum where you and your chums can give incorrect and repetitive arguments why regional rugby doesn't work.

Too many ignorant idiots who can't see the national team improvement is not the problem.

Risca;

I will not drop down to your level of name calling, you obviously can't see the wood for the trees, we have four businesses that are not sustainable and some thing has to be done regardless of the success producing players. The WRU are sitting on their hands and hoping all will go away, they probably don't like what they see from the report for reasons such as "they don't understand rugby" etc etc. We may find the likes of Lewis moving on before the S**t hits the fan, claiming he has sorted out the WRU and it went all wrong after he left.

The rest of my post above you have not challenged hence I conclude you agree.

glamorganalun wrote:Rugby is supposed to be our national support, sorry it is not it is football

The CLUB sport of Wales is football, yes. There are more people turning out to watch football clubs play than to watch rugby regions play. However the NATIONAL sport of Wales is rugby, football as a national sport is in that bad shape that when Wales play next (week tomorrow) at PYS they are giving Scarlets season ticket holders free tickets to bump up the attendance.

glamorganalun wrote:I don't go with 50% being left out, it is more like 70% or more, with average crowds over the 4 regions being around less than 30K!

and

glamorganalun wrote:thanks to the introduction of club based regional rugby (by name only).

I honestly don't see where the numbers come from. The regions are all bending over backwards to try and convince people that they are there to represent them, that they are not there to replace their clubs, but to represent them all on a larger scale, as mini-national sides. The people who are bemoaning the regions for not representing them tend to want to have a region on their doorstep.

glamorganalun wrote:At what cost, if the regions finally go bust and go out of business we will go backwards 20 years.

And

glamorganalun wrote:you obviously can't see the wood for the trees, we have four businesses that are not sustainable and some thing has to be done regardless of the success producing players.

The regions are all in debt right now, as is the WRU. However preofessional rugby world wide appears to be in debt. I think there were something like 4 or 5 sides in the Jeff/Rabo (and T14?) that actually ran at a profit last season, but a hell of a lot ran at worse losses than the regions (Sarries, Wasps etc). However the debts that the regions have are reducing year upon year, so that actually means that they are earning, and that (unles things go pearshaped) they will actually break even and start making profits in the future (Scarlets are predicting break even either this season or next). However you are right if the regions went bust we would be looking at amature rugby only in wales.

glamorganalun wrote:The WRU are sitting on their hands and hoping all will go away, they probably don't like what they see from the report for reasons such as "they don't understand rugby" etc etc.

Like I said in an earlier post there have been a few new schemes and ideas that have come out of the WRU and Regional Rugby Ltd since the report.

1 - The regions are running on the salary cap now, which will help to limit the regions outgoings, which I would assume would have been mentioned in the report (and most likely suggested).
2- The revamp of the Welsh Premiership and these A-Grade Licenses, i order to increase the links between regions and feeders, and also to improve the quality of players coming through and increase competition for places. But also costing less as there are less teams to financially support
3 - The new elite under 21s accademy thing, not sure what it is called, that is aimed at targetting young players sooner and giving them speciallist coaching in order to speed up their developement. Meaning hire quality players who will cost less to sign (being young and inexperienced of how business works).

It is likely that these were mentioned in the report, also it is likely that the WRU would like to be praised for doing good things, and don't want us to notice that they were not their ideas. Another thing to remember is the regional participation agreement is due for renual, as is the HEC, in the near future so odds are we may see some more original ideas from the WRU (that were probably in the report) surface over hte next twelve months.

4 Clubs in the Jeff made a profit last year (Tigers, Saints, Exeter and Gloucester). Exeter are not expecting to make a profit next year due to investment in their ground (the fact they got a squad that competed for top 4 place without going into debt is fantastic). Quins and Irish made a relatively small loss. Not sure about Worcester. Others are heavily propped up by individuals/groups.

Cheers Thunor, I have editted my rant accordingly.

HammerofThunor wrote:4 Clubs in the Jeff made a profit last year (Tigers, Saints, Exeter and Gloucester). Exeter are not expecting to make a profit next year due to investment in their ground (the fact they got a squad that competed for top 4 place without going into debt is fantastic). Quins and Irish made a relatively small loss. Not sure about Worcester. Others are heavily propped up by individuals/groups.

Interesting stuff HT.

Surprised to hear Gloucester/Exeter make profit.

To be fair that's just reward for the loyalty of their fans.

Hopefully all the fantastic initiatives of the regions for next season will encourage similar in Wales too.

Gloucester have their own ground and average around 13000 a year I think. Add in supplementry incomes, reduction in some of Dean Ryan's crazy signings (Voyce was on a fair packet apparently).

I think Exeter have the option to buy Bristol's shares in the premiership now (someone who knows more about it than me may correct that) which is set them back initially but will be excellent in the long term. Also there are ground improvement plans so you'll probably see a loss next year.

Tigers and Saints are the traditional profit makers. But Exeter are right on the verge and Gloucester used to make profit most years before their dip in form.

There is an article on here that specifies the actual numbers. I think it's one of Portnoys.

Quins could get into that group soon as well.

I think Quins were at about £1M loss but they were working on their ground a bit. Not sure of any details really. Salary cap is extending this year by £250k-£800k so you'd expect to see some drops (the range depends on your marque player and academy bonuses)

Sorry the salary cap is extending three to
Times what it was before?

Salary cap is increasing by £250k (to £4.25M). Then there are allowances for players that came through the academy within the last 5 years and one marque signing (up to £300k). I think if you maxed out everything you could get about £4.75M).

This is for the full playing squad, including acadmey players, not the 32(?) man European squad. The only people outside of it are long term injury replacements who can't be given more than the player they were replacing.

Some one else may know for sure. Sam's usually pretty good.

HammerofThunor wrote:Salary cap is increasing by £250k (to £4.25M). Then there are allowances for players that came through the academy within the last 5 years and one marque signing (up to £300k). I think if you maxed out everything you could get about £4.75M).

This is for the full playing squad, including acadmey players, not the 32(?) man European squad. The only people outside of it are long term injury replacements who can't be given more than the player they were replacing.

Some one else may know for sure. Sam's usually pretty good.

Thats not a huge amount but is there not a massive difference in the haves and have nots in their playing and training facilities despite a salary cap?

Northampton have said they have room in the cap and are keeping their eye out. Leicester, Sarries and Bath are definately at it. Gloucester probably. Most of them aren't at the cap, which is why it's generally not being increased very much (if at all).

Coming soon..!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19403093

"Over the next coming weeks we will make a statement on the contents of that report," said Welsh Rugby Union group chief executive Roger Lewis.

"make a statement on the contents..."

Rodge won't be disclosing much of that one, then.

What an awful article by the BBC.

I would love for them to explain how season on season incraeses, 3rd highest attendance in the league and an average crowd of 9,000 last year for the Scarlets can with any honesty be described as a dwindling crowd and the region playing infront of under 7,500 on average.

That's just blatently wrong. Well done BBC.

Risca Rev wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:thanks to the introduction of club based regional rugby (by name only).

"club based regional rugby by name only"? Talk sense when you're spinning your boring yarns. We get it that despite facts presented to you, you can't accept regions. Get a life and stop boring people with the same posts. I'm sure you, LD, Bluesman, Caserbelli (or whoever he is/was) and Jimmy Chod could form a lovely forum where you and your chums can give incorrect and repetitive arguments why regional rugby doesn't work.Too many ignorant idiots who can't see the national team improvement is not the problem.

Whoa,Whoa, hang on a minute, are you insinuating me in there ? I have never said regional rugby is not working, I think it's unfair, but it definatley is working, also, after the first few months of the disbandment of the Warriors I am now fully behind all the regions and my bitterness went in about 2006/2007. I just do not like it when people on here get on their soap box about getting down to the grounds to support their region when they have not gone through what others have.

You can include Cardiff Dave to that anti-region bandwagon.

I've never been sure what they are trying to acheive?

Some people just don't like change..!!!

Let's just nip this in the bud shall we? Before it becomes another 'boring regional thread' (this thread is about the WRU wasting money on a report that nobody will get to read and Roger Lewis will ignore).

Casartelli is most certainly not part of any 'anti-region bandwagon'.

Casartelli is very pro-region. Thus I think, after ten years, we should stop messing around with it, like a bunch of clueless amateurs, and do it properly.

Sounds like it is time for Caserelli to write a thread on his manifesto for Proper Regional Rugby, with success and all that Jazz...!

rugbydreamer wrote:What an awful article by the BBC.

I would love for them to explain how season on season incraeses, 3rd highest attendance in the league and an average crowd of 9,000 last year for the Scarlets can with any honesty be described as a dwindling crowd and the region playing infront of under 7,500 on average.

That's just blatently wrong. Well done BBC.

To be fair it talks about average Regional crowds & Ospreys 6,500,Blues 7,000 & Dragons 5,000 brings the average down. Scarlets buck the trend that's true but whichever way you look at it they are not great figures.

They've amended it a bit since a lot of people complained about it earlier in the day. It was talking about "each" region to begin with, now it just says regions, and has changed the figure to 8,000.

It's still wrong. I don't understand how increased attendances for a region can be described as dwindling.

rugbydreamer wrote:They've amended it a bit since a lot of people complained about it earlier in the day. It was talking about "each" region to begin with, now it just says regions, and has changed the figure to 8,000.

It's still wrong. I don't understand how increased attendances for a region can be described as dwindling.

How on erth can last years average have increased by 1000 people attending last years rugby matches, either I missed a big step in modern physics or the BBC again want to portray Welsh rugby in a poorer light...?

rugbydreamer wrote:They've amended it a bit since a lot of people complained about it earlier in the day. It was talking about "each" region to begin with, now it just says regions, and has changed the figure to 8,000.

It's still wrong. I don't understand how increased attendances for a region can be described as dwindling.

I guess the Scarlets increased, Blues & Ospreys decreased & Dragons fairly stable.