England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

The equation is simple. If England win, they remain number 1. If South Africa avoid defeat, they move up to number 1 and will officially be the best Test team in the World.

England: 1 Andrew Strauss (capt), 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Ian Bell, 5 James Taylor, 6 Jonny Bairstow, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Stuart Broad, 9 Graeme Swann, 10 James Anderson, 11 Steven Finn

South Africa: 1 Graeme Smith (capt), 2 Alviro Petersen, 3 Hashim Amla, 4 Jacques Kallis, 5 AB de Villiers (wk), 6 Jacques Rudolph, 7 JP Duminy, 8 Vernon Philander, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Imran Tahir

Are you ready?

[ShankyCricket]

I think Bairstow has done enough today to keep Ravi out given the circumstances in which the runs were scored.

As for Bopara deserving a run, well, he has hardly been the best batsman in LVCC, has he? He only really got into the team because of a lack of alternatives. Now when someone like Bairstow has shown the ability to score runs under pressure against good attacks, he should be persevered with regardless of whether he scores a hundred or not. 72 is not bad. Not that he will do it everytime but when has Ravi ever done that against a good attack? Just because he had to leave under unfortunate circumstances doesn't mean he walks back in.

Sorry Shelsey but can't help but feel that you have a personal bias towards Bopara. Because you cannot justify dropping a guy who has just scored a 72 under immense pressure against top bowling for a guy who was a couple of bad tests away from being dropped, anyway.

[Shelsey93]

South Africa's lower order made a world of difference in getting them pass 300 with Philander, Steyn and Morkel, all chipping in with important runs. England's lower order batting ability has been a significant factor in them reaching the top position in test rankings. But from the last winter onwards, lower order runs hasn't been flowing as they used to be for some time. England are without Bresnan, but both Broad and Swann are capable. Swann's test best is against the Saffers isn't it?
But if SA could get the overnight batters separated early tomorrow, then facing up to the new ball against Steyn, Morkel and Philander will be a far more dificult job for the lower order. But if Bairstow and Prior could see the first half hour and early overs with the new ball off, then England could hope to establish a decent lead that would put some pressure on SA.
South Africa should keep the intensity up in the morning, give Morkel and Kallis the go ahead in the morning with a couple of overs from Tahir and perhaps Duminy, and then Steyn and Philander with the new ball. If they could restrict England to less than 350, then it would be advantage South Africa and the job will be up to their strong solid batting lineup to set up a dificult 4th innings for England.

I agree. The most disappointing aspect of England's performances over the last year is that previous strengths - daddy hundreds and hence massive totals, superb fielding standards and lower order batting - haven't quite delivered in the way they were previously.

Of course South Africa struck gold with Philander. I reckon they initially picked him v Aus last year ahead of Tsotsobe, who was progressing nicely save for his Essex stint, on the grounds that they wanted a Bresnan-type number 8 that could bat rather than having a long tail. I doubt they imagined in their wildest dreams that he would also be the fastest man to 50 wickets for over 100 years.

[ShankyCricket]

Mike,
I think the 2nd point is more valid.

[Duty281]

At 54/4, it looked very bad for England but the middle order, the supposed weak and inexperienced middle-order, stood up with fifties from Bell and Bairstow. Prior has got a decent start as well. At 208/5, we're 101 behind and should be looking for a slender first innings advantage. We can still win this.

And a big well done to Bairstow for his 72*, he'd led the fightback, not bad for a inexperienced Test batsman facing the second best bowling attack in International cricket.

[Mad for Chelsea]

The Bopara one is an interesting question. Certainly Bairstow showed today that he (apparently) has what it takes to succeed at this level: runs against a high quality attack in a difficult situation in a critical match. I've always though Bairstow's problem against the short ball is over-stated, and certainly to my mind SA over-did it today. I'm more worried that two of his three dismissals so far in his test career have been playing around straight balls, and to my mind SA missed a trick by not trying out a few more of those early on (only Morkel tried one).

The thing is, Bopara played in the first test, didn't do terribly badly either, and in ODIs (and T20s) recently has shown signs that he's getting to the point when he's performing consistently at international level (his record in ODIs has been excellent over the last year or so). He did OK last summer in the tests too. In a way he's been unlucky in that both in SL and this summer he's been unable to take his place in the line-up when he had a chance to really lay down a marker for his place and his form was good.

If pushed I might be tempted to go with Bops and Bairstow IF KP's problems aren't sorted, but of course Taylor could score a match-winning hundred and changed all that. Certainly Taylor's chance will come (maybe sooner rather than later - Strauss?)

[ShankyCricket]

Second best? SA have the best attack IMO.

[ShankyCricket]

In India, I'd go with this team at the moment:

Cook(c)
Trott
Bell
KP
Taylor/Bairstow
Prior(wk)
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Onions
Anderson

[JDizzle]

Onions in India is an interesting one. Whilst he certainly is the form bowler of this summer in the CC, does his style really suit India and Indian pitches? He hasn't played for England for a while, bar that Test against the Windies, and coming back into the team in India is a big ask. I'd still go with Finn ahead of him at this moment in time, but I suspect they might have a look at two spinners again.

[Shelsey93]

The Bopara one is an interesting question. Certainly Bairstow showed today that he (apparently) has what it takes to succeed at this level: runs against a high quality attack in a difficult situation in a critical match. I've always though Bairstow's problem against the short ball is over-stated, and certainly to my mind SA over-did it today. I'm more worried that two of his three dismissals so far in his test career have been playing around straight balls, and to my mind SA missed a trick by not trying out a few more of those early on (only Morkel tried one).

As well as over-doing it a lot of the short balls were misdirected. The reason a few batsmen - not only Bairstow but also Ponting - have struggled against Roach's short ball is because it is directed at the body. Bairstow was able to leave quite a few of the short balls today - he's not a compulsive hooker who has trouble with the short ball in that way like Suresh Raina.

[skyeman]

The Bopara one is an interesting question. Certainly Bairstow showed today that he (apparently) has what it takes to succeed at this level: runs against a high quality attack in a difficult situation in a critical match. I've always though Bairstow's problem against the short ball is over-stated, and certainly to my mind SA over-did it today. I'm more worried that two of his three dismissals so far in his test career have been playing around straight balls, and to my mind SA missed a trick by not trying out a few more of those early on (only Morkel tried one).

The thing is, Bopara played in the first test, didn't do terribly badly either, and in ODIs (and T20s) recently has shown signs that he's getting to the point when he's performing consistently at international level (his record in ODIs has been excellent over the last year or so). He did OK last summer in the tests too. In a way he's been unlucky in that both in SL and this summer he's been unable to take his place in the line-up when he had a chance to really lay down a marker for his place and his form was good.

If pushed I might be tempted to go with Bops and Bairstow IF KP's problems aren't sorted, but of course Taylor could score a match-winning hundred and changed all that. Certainly Taylor's chance will come (maybe sooner rather than later - Strauss?)

Sorry but 22 runs in the first Test is bad.

[Shelsey93]

Onions in India is an interesting one. Whilst he certainly is the form bowler of this summer in the CC, does his style really suit India and Indian pitches? He hasn't played for England for a while, bar that Test against the Windies, and coming back into the team in India is a big ask. I'd still go with Finn ahead of him at this moment in time, but I suspect they might have a look at two spinners again.

Myself and in particular shanky tend to believe that in India two spinners isn't always, or even most of the time, that necessary. But where we do need two spinners (i.e. a turning wicket), I'd rather see the balance of 3 pacers and 2 spinners - the only case where I like having 5 bowlers rather than 4.

[ShankyCricket]

2 Spinners in a country which has made Warne and Murali look like club bowlers?
People often tend to get carried away with playing 2 spinners in India but the fact is that even though the conditions suit the spinners more, the ability of their batsmen to not only counter but demolish even great spin bowling completely negates the pitch factor. Seamers have been far more effective for overseas sides.

As for the question of whether Onions can be successful in India, have a look at Hoggard's record there.

[ShankyCricket]

www.stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=6;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=1+jan+1992;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=6;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=1+jan+1992;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

[JDizzle]

Onions in India is an interesting one. Whilst he certainly is the form bowler of this summer in the CC, does his style really suit India and Indian pitches? He hasn't played for England for a while, bar that Test against the Windies, and coming back into the team in India is a big ask. I'd still go with Finn ahead of him at this moment in time, but I suspect they might have a look at two spinners again.

Myself and in particular shanky tend to believe that in India two spinners isn't always, or even most of the time, that necessary. But where we do need two spinners (i.e. a turning wicket), I'd rather see the balance of 3 pacers and 2 spinners - the only case where I like having 5 bowlers rather than 4.

I would agree with you there, in the way that we pick two spinners just because we feel we should because we are playing in India and it is important to remember that our seamers are our strength and that we should back them to take 20 wickets in a match, even in India. However, I can see the selectors going with a top five, Prior at 6 and then potentially Patel at 7 with our regular attack of Swann, Jimmy, Broad and whoever else and I wouldn't mind seeing that to be honest.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I agree with the "two spinners isn't necessarily the best way to go in India" line. Certainly in SL this winter I thought England's balance looked far better in the second test than in the first. However four seamers seems like overkill to me, and not sure what the fourth seamer would contribute that the other three couldn't (but then again I don't believe in five bowlers as a general rule)...

[msp83]

If the ECB somehow decides to defuse and resolve the Pietersen situation(something I don't think they are much interested in), then he walks back in at 4. Taylor showed good temprament in his debut innings, and Bairstow has played a good innings here. They have made a good case for further opportunities. If Pietersen is cast aside for good, then that means there are 2 openings one at 4 and the other at 6. On current showing Both Taylor and Bairstow have done enough to get a run in the side. Ravi Bopara and Eoin Morgan are next in line for me, of course they have to back up their experience and good ODI shoing into valuable consistent first class runs.
Unless Andrew Strauss desides enough is enough, I don't see the ECB pushing him aside. But Strauss already into his midd-30s, and seemingly on decline as a batsman will have to go sooner rather than later, but I haven't really seen any county opening batsman knocking on the door hard enough. It seems the England management looks upon James Taylor as someone capable of making the switch from the middle order to the top of the lineup.

[msp83]

England had Ian Blackwell as one of the spinners during a test series in India some time back didn't they? Was quite a joke then.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I think Blackwell only played one test, much in the Samit Patel mould, as someone who could chip in with a few runs and provide a second spin option (if memory serves, Udal was the main spinner and Giles injured?).

[ShankyCricket]

5 Bowlers will definitely be needed in India. As someone who lives here, I can tell you that the climate is unforgiving. And if someone like Sehwag gets stuck into our attack, then it could be a long, hard day. Particularly with Swann's elbow problems, 5 bowlers makes sense. So the question is the 4th seamer or the 2nd spinner? The answer is pretty simple for me. Play to your strengths and the opposition's weaknesses, which, in both cases is seam bowling. And given that our most likely 2nd spinner has a test bowling average of 54 against India and is also a fairly awful fielder, I see absolutely no case for 2 spinners.

[Duty281]

Second best? SA have the best attack IMO.

No World-Class spinner means they're attack is behind England's.

[Liam]

Onions is perfect for India if you ask me. His bowling style is wicket to wicket, which is highly effective. Plus, he has that little bit of pace that makes him a real threat. On pitches that won't offer allot to the seamers, as with the weather, stump to stump bowling is very effective.

I also agree with another point made in that, yes we could play two spinners but India's batsmen are so good against spin that really a second spinner would only suit their style more.

[Duty281]

India is a very winnable series for England. Their batsmen are on the decline (although Sehwag and Gambhir will be World-Class at home) and they only have one World-Class bowler, Zaheer Khan. They have no World-Class spinner and their seam bowling is weak. The series will boil down to India's batting and England's bowling.

[Mike Selig]

The teams recently to have done well in India are the West Indies of the 80s, Australia, and South Africa (who haven't won there but have drawn a few times). None of these teams did so by playing 2 spinners. They did it with accurate seam bowling, a bit of reverse swing, and a spinner (even Warne) mainly playing the containing role.

Onions could certainly be useful, exactly for the reasons martyr just said - wicket to wicket with a little bit of movement works well, Indian batsmen (Shewag, Gambhir, Raina if he plays) love width.

Little point in Samit Patel, unless you think he's one of your batsmen, his bowling will be of practically zero value.

[Duty281]

Anyone want to see India's Home Test Series Record since December 2004? Of course you do, it might give you nightmares mind:


India 1-0 South Africa
India 1-1 Pakistan
India 2-0 Sri Lanka
India 1-1 England
India 1-0 Pakistan
India 1-1 South Africa
India 2-0 Australia
India 1-0 England
India 2-0 Sri Lanka
India 1-1 South Africa
India 2-0 Australia
India 1-0 New Zealand
India 2-0 West Indies

[Mike Selig]

South Africa have drawn twice there indeed - I doubt Paul Harris was the key factor (although if memory serves me correctly he did get a 5-for at one point).

[skyeman]

[quote="Duty281"]Anyone want to see India's Home Test Series Record since December 2004? Of course you do, it might give you nightmares mind:


India 1-0 South Africa
India 1-1 Pakistan
India 2-0 Sri Lanka
India 1-1 England
India 1-0 Pakistan
India 1-1 South Africa
India 2-0 Australia
India 1-0 England
India 2-0 Sri Lanka
India 1-1 South Africa
India 2-0 Australia
India 1-0 New Zealand
India 2-0 West Indies
India 0-2 England

[ShankyCricket]

Not sure they need a world class spinner against us though. Rehman and Herath were never known as "world class" before they faced us.
Strauss has been abysmal against left arm bowling, both seam and spin in recent times. I am sure Zaheer and Ojha will have taken note of that. Cook should do well. Trott is a bit out of form and Bell seems to be having a mental block while playing in Asia. Technically, he is our best player of spin. He is wristier and has got softer hands than anyone in the England team but his record in Asia is mystifying. I expect him to do ok this time around but we really need KP to have any chance of winning in India.

[ShankyCricket]

India have lost 1 Test at home ever since Dhoni took charge: vs SA at Nagpur 2010.
Add to it our recent performance in the subcontinent, its fair to say that I am not too optimistic. Though it is not impossible.

[ShankyCricket]

Don't remember Paul Harris getting a 5fer in India. The reason why SA managed to draw those 2 series is that man called Dale Steyn. Rolled them over for 76 at Ahmedabad in 2008 on a shockingly green wicket.
The performance at Nagpur in 2010 was special though. It was one of the best displays of reverse swing bowling I've seen, on a fairly placid surface.

[KP_fan]

It's a test match hanging in balance apparently.......but that Eng bats last makes it 60-40 in SA's favor.

I think most likely SA will get a lead of between 30 to 50 today.......and coupled with the fact they will bowl at Eng on D5 makes it tilted in SA favour.

However less lilkely but very much possible with Bairtstow, Prior, Broad and Swann can all throw their weights.....and get Eng Eng a lead of about 50......then the game will be at par...the lead being offsetby "batting last factor".


After the debacle in the first test...Eng have competed hard against a superior team...to their credit......on the back of KP in T2 and rallying throuhg Anderson/Finn/ Bairstow so far.

Verdict: 60-40 in SA favor as of now.

[Shelsey93]

With regard to India... we might just play them at the right time. A lot of their success at home has been built on a strategy of making 600 with the bat, then bowling the opposition out for 400, making 300 yourselves and then pushing for victory on the final day. Zaheer has been the key bowler in achieving this. They recognised that a lot of games would be drawn, but knew their batting was good enough to avoid losing many - see the low number of losses in Skyeman's stats.

But when we face them they'll have two new batsmen (3 if you include Kohli although he's clearly got what it takes). Zaheer has also looked a shadow of his former self since hobbling away from the England tour (though that he was still their best bowler says a lot about the other seamers), and the rest of the pace attack is very, very average.

We will need to worry about the spinners. Ashwin is a good bowler, and Ojha has the potential to cause us the same sort of issues that Rehman and Herath did last winter.

[Mike Selig]

Don't remember Paul Harris getting a 5fer in India. The reason why SA managed to draw those 2 series is that man called Dale Steyn. Rolled them over for 76 at Ahmedabad in 2008 on a shockingly green wicket.
The performance at Nagpur in 2010 was special though. It was one of the best displays of reverse swing bowling I've seen, on a fairly placid surface.

You're right, although Harris did take 3/76 in the second innings at Nagpur. Apart from that his performances in India varried between mediocre (3/100odd) and dreadful (1/180).

The 5-fer I was thinking of was in Pakistan, or maybe it was his 4-129 on debut at home against India.

Agree about Steyn's spell in Nagpur, that was awesome.

Fascinating day's play today in store. It is crucial that these two stay together and see off the 2nd new ball. If they can do that (Bairstow won't be far off 100 if that happens) and then cash in.... If SA break through early I don't fancy England's chances.

[Mike Selig]

Although I'm not sure the "last day" thing is all that. Lords isn't the Oval, and recently has deteriorated very little. Any issues with chasing will be more about pressure than the wicket, which will stay fairly true I think.

[DouglasJardinesbox]

Yep, I'd agree 60-40 as well. That said, it will probably only need one BIG innings from JayBee, Matty or Broad to reverse that. Swann can hit quick runs, but not sure he can hang around for very long. Broad really does need to bat like a batter today if he wants to call himself an all rounder.

What happens in the 2nd Innings' is anyones guess. Just hope there is substantial play on Monday, as I will take a walk over to Lords...

[Galted]

The teams recently to have done well in India are the West Indies of the 80s, Australia, and South Africa (who haven't won there but have drawn a few times). None of these teams did so by playing 2 spinners. They did it with accurate seam bowling, a bit of reverse swing, and a spinner (even Warne) mainly playing the containing role.

A bit pedantic I know but SA did win the series in India in 2000 albeit a 2-match one. Boje took 5 in the last innings but in total only 7 out of 40 Indian wickets went to spin (or "spin" as it's know when S Africans bowl it).

[KP_fan]

Although I'm not sure the "last day" thing is all that. Lords isn't the Oval, and recently has deteriorated very little. Any issues with chasing will be more about pressure than the wicket, which will stay fairly true I think.

Pressure is defnitley the factor in any 4th inning chases...and then there is all the #1 at stake pressure that will force Eng to "go for it"
in the last inning..because draw does them no good.

Yeah it's no oval or Sydney that starts spinning universally in the last day and half....but on any good cricketing pitch, like this one there is normal wear and tear.....
Occasional balls will go throuhg the top and a few keeping low...
More importantly...there will be a rough on or outside the right handers leg stump..created by all right arm..... generally over the wicket seam bowling that has taken place in this test match.....

and interestingly SA have Tahir as a leggie to exploit.....this rough...that Swann won't have been able to as much even if he bowled on D4 and D5..except somewhat when bowing to lefties.

and I am talking about the kind of delivery that Tahir got anderson LBW with to get SA's 20th and match winning wkt in T1.

Tahir ain't a great leggie...nor will ever be anywhere in the traditon of Warne, Kumble, Mustaaq, etal....

But he is great situational asset to have ading a little more balance in SA's favor...in a test whihc will be decided by a small margin defnitely...so every little bit is being counted here.

[Shelsey93]

Although I'm not sure the "last day" thing is all that. Lords isn't the Oval, and recently has deteriorated very little. Any issues with chasing will be more about pressure than the wicket, which will stay fairly true I think.

This pitch won't break up, although I'm not sure its as true a pitch as a few recent Lord's decks. It certainly won't be easy to chase 300.

[Mike Selig]

The pitch may break up a bit, but I don't expect to see balls going through the top much if at all. It doesn't look dry enough and the weather hasn't been hot enough for that.

Rough for Tahir may be a bit of an issue, and more so if England have to score quickly and he can bowl outside the right handers leg-stump.

[FerN]

Why does everyone on here say in SA's favour? I think England will get a smallish lead. Bairstow looks solid and England are infront of where SA was at around this mark.

[mystiroakey]

I think its odds on to get 350 from here.. however that would make the game 50/50 as we would still be batting last- i want 380 minimum to tip the scales in Englands favour

[GSC]

One of these 2 of they're into the bowlers.

Settle down first thing, new ball and fresh bowlers to come, but conditions are there for batting.

[skyeman]

Don't get much better. Important series against a top team at sunny Lords.

Life is good, although a bit tense.

[skyeman]

I was spot on with Kalliis, Sorry if i sound like the NUT.

[mystiroakey]

Hehe nutter.. What was you spot on aboot!

[Duty281]

Every run is vital, we have to see off the new ball and get a slender lead.

[mystiroakey]

Yes but lets not let them get on top by strangling the SR..

good 4

[skyeman]

About him opening the bowling.

Steady start, just waiting for the new ball. And the runs to come quicker. Hopefully.

[mystiroakey]

Oh yes you were

[GSC]

If we play off the new ball, with Prior and Bairstow at the crease we'll score fairly quickly. Survival is the aim this morning

[ShankyCricket]

With regard to India... we might just play them at the right time. A lot of their success at home has been built on a strategy of making 600 with the bat, then bowling the opposition out for 400, making 300 yourselves and then pushing for victory on the final day. Zaheer has been the key bowler in achieving this. They recognised that a lot of games would be drawn, but knew their batting was good enough to avoid losing many - see the low number of losses in Skyeman's stats.

But when we face them they'll have two new batsmen (3 if you include Kohli although he's clearly got what it takes). Zaheer has also looked a shadow of his former self since hobbling away from the England tour (though that he was still their best bowler says a lot about the other seamers), and the rest of the pace attack is very, very average.

We will need to worry about the spinners. Ashwin is a good bowler, and Ojha has the potential to cause us the same sort of issues that Rehman and Herath did last winter.

The thing though is that our team is not exactly in great shape either.

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