Facing which team gets your nerves the jumpiest?

Well the start of the 4N is almost upon us and the nerves and anticipation have already set in. It got me thinking though: which team gives me the biggest case of the heebie jeebies when the ABs face them?

I guess this changes over the years and depends greatly on the form of the team. In the 90s, facing Australia was a tall order and one we often found unable to surmount. Traditionally the Boks have been the greatest foe and they still command for me the greatest respect, which in turn you might say conjures up the biggest fear. France in a World Cup knockout match fills me with a deep sense of dread. England are a team I must confess I'm always glad to see beaten but I suspect I am not alone in this feeling. The fear of losing is different to the prospect of losing to SA. It is more the fear of losing to a team that is all too willing to remind you of having lost to them, (and fair enough!). Then there are the teams that have never beaten the ABs but there is the tangible fear like this series against Ireland that records are made to be broken.

So if you were to create a world ranking of fear for me as an AB supporter, I think it'd go something like this.

1. South Africa
2. France (capable of jumping to 1 in a RWC knockout match
3. Australia
4. Wales
5. England
6. Argentina
7. Ireland
8. Scotland
9. Manu Samoa
10. Japan (one day they built tiny transistors and changed the world. I think they can go to the other extreme and create Godzilla rugby players and change the rugby world).

Honourable mentions Georgia and Romania. They strike fear in me because players one to fifteen look like something spawned from a giant cloning machine.

Who strikes fear into you the most at the moment?

Kia, I get the point of this but I don’t really see anything to fear outside of the top 3. Wales/Eng can cause nervous moments but they are rare these days (no disrespect to those countries) and they certainly aren’t teams that I think “Geez, we could lose this one because we simply don’t know how well they can play”. Ireland gave us a fright this year but the last time they did that was 2001 and before that 1992. Scotland’s last real chance was 1990.

SA, France and Australia on the other hand are those types of teams.

Interesting thread Kia. It's also nice to be reminded that, as an England supporter, it's not just the home nations which absolutely hate us.

I have a particular fear of SA I must say. They challenge precisely what England rugby has always prided itself on, physicality. Whilst I think we have and have had the talent to progress our game it's largely what we've remained wedded to for a hundred years or so. Having a team take that away from you is tough.

Certainly in recent memory SA have always had the upper hand and it would be nice to return to the days when it was a fifty fifty call as to the victor!

My top 10 as an England supoorter:

1. South Africa
2. New Zealand
3. Ireland
4. Australia
5. Wales
6. France
7. Scotland
8. Argentina
9. Samoa
10. Madagascar

As an Englishman, I always dread the games against South Africa. Their sheer physicality and bruising runs.

It's strange how NZ can have a problem with both France and Australia whereas as an English fan I go into those games pretty confident.

NZ and SA are two games that I look at with trepdiation for different reasons. NZ because they can just blow you away in the blink of an eye and are mostly very clinical. SA, just because if they get up a head of steam (like at the start of the 2nd Test this summer) then ouch. England's record against those two is pretty abysmal recently too. We're almost always playing catch up in games.

Argentina (epecially away) is very tricky prospect and will get trickier now that they're in the 4 Nations. England often don't play well against them either. Until this year I would have said Ireland too but I think we've broken that spell.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:England are a team I must confess I'm always glad to see beaten but I suspect I am not alone in this feeling. The fear of losing is different to the prospect of losing to SA. It is more the fear of losing to a team that is all too willing to remind you of having lost to them, (and fair enough!).

Not sure that's really fair or necessary.

Well NZ is a little bit difficult as they have such a high winning percentage. But I'm interested mintie in not so much the Kiwi fans (no big surprises as to the top 3 there) but the other countries' fans. Where does Ireland lie for SA? Maybe NZ are way down in terms of nerves for some countries as they never really expect to win. Whereas Wales fans might put England through the roof whereas they close the roof for Australia even though the latter has a much better record over them.

Chjw131, hate's a strong word. I actually think it's a good thing for world rugby when England are strong and are genuine contenders. So I don't hate England. I actually have a great fondness for the place and its people. I just hate losing to England. But you're in good company there. As an AB supporter I hate losing to anybody. All 5 test teams and the Barbarians and Lions.

Sugarandspikes, I didn't mean it as a jibe. England rightfully bring up that 2002-3 team as a yardstick of world rugby. Like I said, I have no problem with that. I would just prefer those teams to be kept to as few as possible. I did put Wales above England.

Sugar, I fully agree France commands a great deal more respect in the SH than they do in the NH. I guess when a team beats you fair and square and is able to raise their game against you on a consistent basis then that's understandable. Ireland may well have been higher up in the stakes for you before this year's 6N.

The media also play a role. Some of the rubbish written about France before the final last year in the NZ press was shameful. There were equally disparaging things written about Ireland until that 2nd test gave some journos a good helping of humble pie.

I guess it's very easy to mix fans and media opinion as the same. When NZ loses to England, the name Stephen Jones springs to mind. I think it's good to have these pantomime figures though as in a way it's a good way to curb off the excesses of public opinion and make them more rounded. Too often though we are all guilty of taking things defensively and set the battle lines and remain entrenched in them.

I very rarely get nervous at the prospect of losing by a big score. Without wanting to sound disrespectful to anyone, there are some sides that I simply can't stand the idea of losing to and effectively my nerves get jangled prior to many games for that reason, knowing I'll have to sit through it and silently sulk at any point we're behind. If you get stuffed it is but icing on your shame.

1. France (Did part of my schooling in France and would always get the worst stick whenever they beat Wales)
2. England
3. Ireland
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. South Africa
7. Scotland
8. Italy
9. Samoa
10. Fiji

From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I am alwys nervous against NZ, I am angry against Oz when we lose, and really peeved off when we lose against other teams.

Engalnd had a period when I was nervous when we played them and France away I am actually not nervous, for some reason in the last decade we are just poor against them.


1 New Zealand
2 Australa
3 France
4 England.

The other teams just make me angry when we lose because I don't believe we should lose ( arrogant I know, but that's where we should be)

Having said that, I had my share of games where I got nervous during games.

The other teams just make me angry when we lose because I don't believe we should lose ( arrogant I know, but that's where we should be

And that's why the world "loves" the South Africans.

I could have said

1. New Zealand
2. France

But whatever.

So Ireland makes the most peeved list instead of the jumpiest list then mate?

Yep, and the fact that they haven't been to SA for a decade.

Duigers wrote:

The other teams just make me angry when we lose because I don't believe we should lose ( arrogant I know, but that's where we should be

And that's why the world "loves" the South Africans.

I could have said

1. New Zealand
2. France

But whatever.

We're supposed to be honest , aren't we.

The French have always made me the most nervous because for one thing, they kept pipping us to 6 Nations titles. But also because they quite often stylishly spanked us off the park and the match was over at half time. They just love playing us and we are a bit afraid of the sight of the blue jersey I reckon. It represents all the painful thrashings of the past.

I don't like losing at home to the three British teams. So I'm nervous for these matches. National pride is at stake.

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

From a Welsh perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. South Africa
3. Australia
4. France
5. England
6. Samoa
7. Ireland
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Argentina

Chjw131 wrote:

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

Recent form being Ireland winning 6 of the last 8 6N games against England? A decade ago England would be top of the list of teams I wanted to beat, now I'm not so bothered cause we've beaten you so many times in recent years. Don't think that because our tighthead prop got injured in the first scrum and we had to play an average loosehead at 3 for the rest of the match all of a sudden means England are the nemesis again. The recent record between Ireland and England is heavily stacked in Irelands favour and not just at international level but Heineken Cup level as well.

New Zealand are obviously first, as Ireland have never beaten them. France are probably next, but not on current form. In the past we have always struggled to beat them though. Wales are certainly high up on the list now too. I think they would be for most NH teams currently. I am not sure how long that will last though, this is only based on their form for the past 12 months.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

The recent record between Ireland and England is heavily stacked in Irelands favour and not just at international level but Heineken Cup level as well.

Depends what you count as recent, it's 3-3 in all matches over the last 5 years.

Artful_Dodger wrote:The recent record between Ireland and England is heavily stacked in Irelands favour and not just at international level but Heineken Cup level as well.

I think it's become quite obvious that HEC doesn't seem to have a great deal of bearing on international rugby. Compare and contrast the fortunes of Ireland and Wales in those arenas.

Wales:
1. Aus
2. Aus
3. Aus
4. Aus
5. Aus
6. NZ.
7. SA
8. Fr
9. Eng
10. Ire
11. Scot
12. Samoa
13. Italy

mowgli

Chjw131 wrote:

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

And Duigers gets a bite


It's France all the way for me. Just the history between us as nations really. I also work with a load of French lads and lasses.

The 6N win in Paris was great, but I copped it after the RWC quarter.


Such is life.

I dont care who my team faces.
Be it ABs who i expect to win.
Or Otago who i expect to lose.
Gotta back your team.
FEAR NO-ONE!

France in World Cups for sure is the one that gives me that sick feeling. It's just that they're so mercurial that we pretty much either lose or give them a hiding. The swing is extraordinary and the polar opposite of NZ's relentless consistency-which is probably why they are feared so much. Seems like a backhanded compliment in that France can save their best for us yet lose to lesser teams when they're not as interested.

Then the Boks and Aussies. The Aussies always seem to do us in when I'm thinking they're ripe for a thumping. Games in Africa I'm always on edge for. If you'd seen me screaming in the internet cafe in Rio where I was watching the Soweto test you'd think I was off my nut!

I get more nervous about Ireland and Wales than England but that's to do with not having lost to Wales since 53 and Ireland ever.

dc

"Seems like a backhanded compliment in that France can save their best for us yet lose to lesser teams when they're not as interested."

Welcome to England's world in the 6N.

nz dont really get my nerves jumpy- i dont expect England to win.

so recently south africa and wales..

I dont fear any other really

From Welsh perspective:
England-having grown up watching them completely dominate us, now that we are equal/better(imo) im always worried a bad game against them could result in a bashing(bit like getting bitten by a dog when young)

Ireland- Are usually very closely matched and it feels like losing to your bro/best mate,happy for them but gutted inside.

France-how can you not be?

Scotland

Samoa

Aus at home

SA at home

I think South Africa make us the most nervous as they are the dreaded foe.

The thing that gets us when we play Australia, is that we cant surprise them in any way, they are always prepared for us, I think its because the Aussies know and understand us better than anyone else, a number of their players and coach are ex Kiwis, and many of the players know each other personally between the two teams.

For me Australia because of the unexpected. The only time I never thought we wouldnt win a test was against John Eales sides of the late 90's. The feeling of dread was confirmed once too often. They still have that effect these days but too a lesser extent now that their lack of depth is overexposed.

I've never thought we would lose to France before the match and was surprised all three world cups when we lost two and scraped in the other- but before all of them I was sure we'd win and the questioned posted was about pre match nerves.

With South Africa I have never thought we would lose nor that we had an inferior team but I do expect a tough battle in which we could lose after the game actually starts. For some reason we generally find a way of winning.

Something inside me refuses to think SA are better than NZ as there have been so many occasions where exterior, controversial factors are involved-Refereeing in the 70's, the non maori thing, the marches, the food poisoning etc.

And its always us that seems to have to overcome or workaround them that it hardens you. SA have had their own problems, but annoyingly we made some of them ours out of the necessity of keeping the sporting contact alive. I'm not sure the SA rugby fraternity fully understand that.

I don't really feel nervous when I watch Ireland any more. It's turned around from expecting to beat most teams to knowing full well against any half-decent team we'll probably flatter to deceive and lose out in the end- either that or total capitulation.

I just feel very pessimistic when Ireland take to the pitch. It's not pleasant. As an Ulster fan, I always feel very buoyant and positive whoever we face these days. But Scarlets are the side that make me the most nervous. It's a growing rivalry and we have a history of tight games.

Taylorman wrote:For me Australia because of the unexpected. The only time I never thought we wouldnt win a test was against John Eales sides of the late 90's. The feeling of dread was confirmed once too often. They still have that effect these days but too a lesser extent now that their lack of depth is overexposed.

I've never thought we would lose to France before the match and was surprised all three world cups when we lost two and scraped in the other- but before all of them I was sure we'd win and the questioned posted was about pre match nerves.

With South Africa I have never thought we would lose nor that we had an inferior team but I do expect a tough battle in which we could lose after the game actually starts. For some reason we generally find a way of winning.

Something inside me refuses to think SA are better than NZ as there have been so many occasions where exterior, controversial factors are involved-Refereeing in the 70's, the non maori thing, the marches, the food poisoning etc.

And its always us that seems to have to overcome or workaround them that it hardens you. SA have had their own problems, but annoyingly we made some of them ours out of the necessity of keeping the sporting contact alive. I'm not sure the SA rugby fraternity fully understand that.

Well now I do, and a lot makes sense now.

Notch wrote:I don't really feel nervous when I watch Ireland any more. It's turned around from expecting to beat most teams to knowing full well against any half-decent team we'll probably flatter to deceive and lose out in the end- either that or total capitulation.

I just feel very pessimistic when Ireland take to the pitch. It's not pleasant. As an Ulster fan, I always feel very buoyant and positive whoever we face these days. But Scarlets are the side that make me the most nervous. It's a growing rivalry and we have a history of tight games.

Aw Notch, I don't like seeing you this pessimistic. Hopefully this season might produce a few surprises and spark your interest in irish rugby again.

For me (Wales)
Samoa always make me nervous even though I feel we should win.
NZ, Oz & SA at home particularly do as you've got a better shot at it then.
France can spoil anyone's party.
Scotland, England & Italy I always think we'll win ( don't shoot me, just my one eyed opinion) but all could win on the day.
Ireland cos right now we seem to have their number, not long ago it was the other way around and could easily change.
Let's not mention Fiji

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:For me Australia because of the unexpected. The only time I never thought we wouldnt win a test was against John Eales sides of the late 90's. The feeling of dread was confirmed once too often. They still have that effect these days but too a lesser extent now that their lack of depth is overexposed.

I've never thought we would lose to France before the match and was surprised all three world cups when we lost two and scraped in the other- but before all of them I was sure we'd win and the questioned posted was about pre match nerves.

With South Africa I have never thought we would lose nor that we had an inferior team but I do expect a tough battle in which we could lose after the game actually starts. For some reason we generally find a way of winning.

Something inside me refuses to think SA are better than NZ as there have been so many occasions where exterior, controversial factors are involved-Refereeing in the 70's, the non maori thing, the marches, the food poisoning etc.

And its always us that seems to have to overcome or workaround them that it hardens you. SA have had their own problems, but annoyingly we made some of them ours out of the necessity of keeping the sporting contact alive. I'm not sure the SA rugby fraternity fully understand that.

Well now I do, and a lot makes sense now.

I actually think its a good, tough and hard earned history between the two countries and one of the most interesting in all of sport. In this day and age things past have mellowed and we're able to get down to the real things that matter...playing rugby on equal terms. Sometimes I think SA have benefited from the past due to our concessions and perhaps thats reflected by the increase in the relative margins between the two that theyre no longer around.

But the more I think about it I think its more about SA not realising their true potential, not allowing the best of SA rugby to come through. I saw the Cheetahs lions and Bulls/ Griquas (?) the other day and that was fantastice rugby. Felt like I was watching Oz sides on the hard and fast grounds over there. Wish we saw more of it in the matches with the AB's.

Tman,

I agree that Australia are the only team that I get nervous about beating and that comes because on paper we should strangle them up front and match them in the backs yet they always seem to be better than the sum of their parts.

I never think we are going to lose to France because usually we have given them a hiding or two in the recent past and so a loss comes as a bit of a surprise.

In respect of South Africa, although the overall win loss record appears to be close (w46 L34 D3 - win 55.4% and non-loss 59%) and the wins in South Africa appear to favour SA, that actually isn't the reality since professionalism, neutral refs and the reintroduction of SA back into rugby.

The AB's winning percentage has increased markedly if you only count games since 1992 and of the 23 games played in SA the AB's have won 13 giving them a 56.5% winning ratio away and in NZ the results are 21 played, 17 wins for the AB's - 1 Draw - 3 wins for the Boks - this is a 80.95% winning ratio and an 85.7% non-losing ratio (when taking into account the draw). Basically, I don't get nervous about playing SA at home and I expect us to win in SA, although if we lose I'm not terribly surprised (although I will be disappointed).

In saying all of that about SA, the fact is that they are the team I most respect, and that may come from the history of the contest, the way my father and grandfather's generations talked in hushed tones about games they saw played in their youth and from my fuzzy recollections of the '76 and '81 tours and the Cavaliers tour (lets not talk about the reffing in those series in SA)

Although not nervous about playing Ireland or Scotland, I don't like the thought that we could lose our unbeaten record and sorry Wales, 1953 was a long time ago.

England, I don't generally get nervous as I expect us to win (although around the 2003 period it was a bit different), however I don't like losing to them at all as I've had to endure a lot of flak from English mates when I lived in the UK and the Caribbean - English Rugby fans seem to suffer from Schadenfreude as I've been given grief from English fans when the AB's lose even though their team has either already been knocked out of a World Cup or is going through a terrible patch of form themselves.

Although this may appear arrogant, I am most certainly not - I am simply pragmatic and logic says that in the professional era, and in particular the last decade or so the AB's will win 80% of their matches.

Funnily, the more I typed this the more it has started feeling like squeaky bum time and I can't wait for the tests to kick-off tomorrow - it feels like the test season is really starting now we are playing the big boys (you can include the Argies in this due to the size of their forwards )

"English Rugby fans seem to suffer from Schadenfreude as I've been given grief from English fans when the AB's lose even though their team has either already been knocked out of a World Cup or is going through a terrible patch of form themselves."

what a load of rubbish. Us english are the ones that get that from everyone else. Even the OP has shown himself to enjoy england losing!!!,

"England are a team I must confess I'm always glad to see beaten but I suspect I am not alone in this feeling"

I am speechless by your comment if i am gonna be honest.. Is there some witch hunt in NZ at the moment,

Out of interest, why are so many non-Celts keen to see England lose? Genuinely interested in the reason, not trying to start an argument.

Mystir

I agree these comments about England are completely uncalled for, in fact I can never recall being nervous about England.

Otagolad wrote:Tman,

In respect of South Africa, although the overall win loss record appears to be close (w46 L34 D3 - win 55.4% and non-loss 59%) and the wins in South Africa appear to favour SA, that actually isn't the reality since professionalism, neutral refs and the reintroduction of SA back into rugby.

The AB's winning percentage has increased markedly if you only count games since 1992 and of the 23 games played in SA the AB's have won 13 giving them a 56.5% winning ratio away and in NZ the results are 21 played, 17 wins for the AB's - 1 Draw - 3 wins for the Boks - this is a 80.95% winning ratio and an 85.7% non-losing ratio (when taking into account the draw). Basically, I don't get nervous about playing SA at home and I expect us to win in SA, although if we lose I'm not terribly surprised (although I will be disappointed).

In saying all of that about SA, the fact is that they are the team I most respect, and that may come from the history of the contest, the way my father and grandfather's generations talked in hushed tones about games they saw played in their youth and from my fuzzy recollections of the '76 and '81 tours and the Cavaliers tour (lets not talk about the reffing in those series in SA)

Otagolad, in the last 8 years Sa has turned their record around by winning 8 out of 20 matches against the All Blacks, all the other nations put together only managed 7 wins in the same period.

If you guys (it seems there are a good number of NZ supporters that think this way) consider us as a non threat then it seems you are still hanging on to the period 1992-2004. That was the period the All Blacks were dominant against SA, in recent times that is simply not the case.

As for the pre solation era, well it is before my time and whether referees were biased only our way is highly questionable and debatable.

At the end of the day I respect the All BLacks as they have been the best team in the professional era and alongside us the best teams in the amateur era. Any suggestion of referees this or that in the past is something that is hard to prove or disprove and frankly sullies the record of these two teams, we should rise above these cliches, accusations and excuses.

NZ are best, accept that, and hope we dont get all our ducks in a row (unless of course you welcome the competition).

Biltong I hope you do get your ducks in a row mate. It's good for the game-and I'm sure we'll respond to the challenge just as you guys have responded to ours.

The early 00s was the worst Bok team ever, made all the more painful I imagine by coinciding with the best England team ever. I think a lot of the what ifs add to the mystique of NZ vs SA-especially earlier. Obviously we take great pride in our rugby team and its supremacy but it was pretty awesome to learn of these mythical players in Africa who had bettered us head to head. In 96 I was counting each win down until we overtook SA-I remember being a pretty happy chappy when that happened. Guess the obsession with being the best led to decisions being made that angered a lot of people.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't really feel nervous when I watch Ireland any more. It's turned around from expecting to beat most teams to knowing full well against any half-decent team we'll probably flatter to deceive and lose out in the end- either that or total capitulation.

I just feel very pessimistic when Ireland take to the pitch. It's not pleasant. As an Ulster fan, I always feel very buoyant and positive whoever we face these days. But Scarlets are the side that make me the most nervous. It's a growing rivalry and we have a history of tight games.

Aw Notch, I don't like seeing you this pessimistic. Hopefully this season might produce a few surprises and spark your interest in irish rugby again.

Oh I'm still interested. I'm still a fan. It's just obvious when a team has run out of ideas and the players have lost faith in the gameplan and coaching structures and unfortunately thats what seems to have happened.

My top 10 as a Welsh fan

1.France
2.Samoa
3.Ireland
4.England
5.Italy
6.Scotland
7.Australia (The SANZAR nation we have the best chance of beating)
8.South Africa
9.New Zealand (Before each game i'm pretty resigned to the fact that we will probably lose)
10.Argentina (I'm always confident of beating them)

Got to be:

New Zealand
South Africa
Wales
Australia
Ireland
France
Argentina
Scotland
Samoa
Italy

mystir I meant that I am always glad to see the ABs beat England. I imagine it's the same for Welsh, Irish, Australian, Scottish fans as well. I don't think that's much of a revelation.

I also wrote in another post I think it's better for world rugby if England is a genuine force. The more rivals, the better. I like it when you approach a test match with nerves and when you do win you feel it was a hard fought victory. Of course though I want the ABs to beat everybody.

I think the reason EnglishReign is that England, unfairly in my opinion, seems to be the focal point of the UK. It's alright for Scotland or Wales to show regional pride but if English supporters fly the St George flag then they often get criticised.I often hear the Spanish complain of los ingleses (Germans as well tend to attract criticism). When I point out to them that England is not a country, it doesn't seem to matter. Gibraltar and their so-called persecution of the fishermen is the fault of the English. In a way though it's the same I think for Australia and NZ. The Mother Country seems always to fall upon England.

I still don't understand the logic why most countries (some I get) have a problem with the Mother Country of the British Empire anyway. If the native Maoris or Aboriginies of Australia did I'd understand it. The 2 Gibraltese (I think) people that I know certainly think of themselves as part of British governance not as Spanish

Kia i have no problem with your view, i have accepted its the way of the world. My problem is with otaglads.

I know many from other countries like to see england fail or lose. What I cannot accept is that the English on the whole suffer from this "Schadenfreude" syndrome.. When its actually on the whole everyone else! Do not tar us with the same brush

dup

France everytime for me.

Then:

1.NZ
2.AUS
3.SA
4.Scotland
5.Ireland
6.Italy
7.Samoa
8.Tonga
9.Fiji
10.Romania