Giants seem to have a problem with unwritten rules

First the Pats claim Ballard of waivers, now the Bucs play defense on a kneeldown.

Maybe these rules should be written, like those referring to faking injuries and 12 men on the field.

The funny thing about sports is that we all forget what our teams do. Anything Giants players have done in the past doesn't justify the Bucs taking a cheap shot at Eli on a routine "stand around" play.

The cheap shot involved Eli being pushed over by his center.

Why should the Bucs stand around and take a loss? Was a one score game, if the NFL doesn't like it then eliminate the kneeldown and just run the time off automatically

The funny thing about this issue is so far is that every neutral is siding with the Bucs conveniently forgetting they'd be upset if it was their team getting shoved about on basic no contact play.

Vick takes 100s of cheap shots on a regular basis anyway.

Bucs were trying to win the game, I might be annoyed but I'd understand fully. This is the NFL.

I get annoyed because teams just settle down for a loss on kneeldowns. I cant believe teams dont play till the end, anything can happen on any play.

It's not cheap shots, it's called playing to the end. And I cant believe teams dont do it more often.

Rutgers forced 4 fumbles on kneeldowns

Anyone who isn't an Iggle, Pat or Buc want to comment? Nothing but NYG haters. You'd all have the same opinion as me if your team were on the receiving end. There's a big chance of players being injured on both sides of the ball when players jump into a play against players unaware and not ready. It's not a case of "they should be ready for contact" as I've seen on another forum it's not something you do. The risk of injury on both teams is far greater than the odds of creating a fumble never mind gathering it and running it for a touchdown.

Would you like the chance of a couple of lumbering DLmen trying to out run the 3 RBs in a kneel down formation?

MockingJay33 wrote:The funny thing about this issue is so far is that every neutral is siding with the Bucs conveniently forgetting they'd be upset if it was their team getting shoved about on basic no contact play.

um.... so, basically, you're saying it's funny that when fans are completely neutral, therefore far more unbiased and objective than you or I, they are saying Schiano's move was correct? You're saying they'd only side with the Giants when they're in an equally subjective and biased spot? Doesn't pointing out that the neutral & objective bystanders disagree with you kinda undermine your argument?

Thats a cheap response and you know it.

GSC wrote:Rutgers forced 4 fumbles on kneeldowns

This is the NFL. Every player holds the ball as tight as possible. There'll never be a fumble on a kneel down in the NFL.

well, it certainly wasn't intended to be! cheap how?

GurTPL wrote:

MockingJay33 wrote:The funny thing about this issue is so far is that every neutral is siding with the Bucs conveniently forgetting they'd be upset if it was their team getting shoved about on basic no contact play.

um.... so, basically, you're saying it's funny that when fans are completely neutral, therefore far more unbiased and objective than you or I, they are saying Schiano's move was correct? You're saying they'd only side with the Giants when they're in an equally subjective and biased spot? Doesn't pointing out that the neutral & objective bystanders disagree with you kinda undermine your argument?

In a way yes. I'm not totally against the Bucs play I just don't like what they did. It smacks of desperation and screams something a bonehead scumbag like Rex Ryan would do.

Not to you gur, to the above post stating that because we were fans of a certain team our opinions are therefor invalid.

The Giants were pretty surprised by the Bucs effort.

They were trying to win a 1 score game. As you say, this is the NFL, 1 win could be the difference between the postseason

^ ah gotcha ^_^

well, fwiw I wrote a pretty lengthy defense of Schiano's dick move (and it was definitely a dick move) at TPL, it's a little long but has gotten pretty good feedback so far.

and, yes, that is a Star Wars pun in the title...

http://pullinglinemen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/ive-got-bad-kneeling-about-this.html

Maybe teams should stop attempting hail mary's

The odds of that succeeding are pretty slim and all those jumpers in the endzone could mean injury.

I'll agree on the dick move to an extent, but Schiano is being paid to win games, not to be best friends with everyone.

At this point Coughlin's making up unwritten rules hoping everybody believes him since he's like 80 lol.

GSC wrote:I'll agree on the dick move to an extent, but Schiano is being paid to win games, not to be best friends with everyone.

At this point Coughlin's making up unwritten rules hoping everybody believes him since he's like 80 lol.

to be fair, it's pretty much institutionally ingrained - remember Mara claiming it was fair to strip two divisional rivals of cap space because they broke the "unwritten rules" of the uncapped year?

I agree games should be played to the end but that isn't what Tampa done. They knew they had lost and decided to take out their frustration in a way which is wrong. They weren't going for a turnover, they were just throwing their weight about and risking injury in the process. Yest Tampa wanted to win the game, but why does this sort of thing not happen? How many one score games are there every season, it rarely happens.

GSC wrote:I'll agree on the dick move to an extent, but Schiano is being paid to win games, not to be best friends with everyone.

At this point Coughlin's making up unwritten rules hoping everybody believes him since he's like 80 lol.

He may be the oldest head coach in the league but he has two more SB wins than the entire Eagles franchise history.

I'm watching the game now on SS4. I don't think my opinion will change when I see it again. Plus it wouldn't be anywhere as close as even 14 points if you take out the turnovers, including Bucs turnovers.

Well it took 20 posts. Decent restraint I guess, but not an answer

And what if they'd forced a fumble and won the game? Coughlins argument is pathetic. You play until the final whistle is blown. Nothing wrong with that at all.

They wouldn't have won the game, there was 5 seconds left, by the time pile was straightened out by the officials time would've ran out.

You're a Bucs fan, you aren't allowed an opinion on this

Oh, and by the way, when the hell did the Giants gain the moral high ground on ethical play? If we're talking about convenient selective memory, maybe the Giants need a bit of a reminder about this doozy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY26rgd4aps

Its funny because 2 of them do it.

If you watch the kneel down again, I believe some Giants players take a few cheap shots at Bucs defenders

GurTPL wrote:Oh, and by the way, when the hell did the Giants gain the moral high ground on ethical play? If we're talking about convenient selective memory, maybe the Giants need a bit of a reminder about this doozy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY26rgd4aps

Got no idea what you're talking about. Before he comes into the picture after the play Jacquian Williams had his laces undone then later he tripped over, the ripples from his fall caused Deon Grant to fall and hurt himself. Simple.

Look my opinion on it in general is I can't believe teams don't play until the end anyways even on kneeldowns. In my opinion you should be giving 100% every play, and if there is even the slightest chance you could force a fumble and a turnover to try and win the game, then do it.

You don't see in football teams give up in injury time and let the other team pass the ball around at the back if they are a goal down

Tbh it was a pretty good move by Schiano in the long term also. The team quit on Morris last season. Now he's setting the tone that we play to win, regardless of whether people like us.

I havent been a fan for long (2-3 years) but this is one of the things I have never understood. Why teams just give up when the QB is kneeling.

Because if the OL does it job properly theres no chance you'll get there fast enough.

The (real) reason the Giants are so peed is because their OL was caught with their pants around their ankles. Had they been awake and blocked it properly thered been no issue.

GSC wrote:First the Pats claim Ballard of waivers

What unwritten rule was broken here?

I really don't see the issue, Mockingjay admitted on twitter if NYG won over Cowboys because of it no Giants fans would complain, but obviously he's a Giants fan so I think his opinion is ignored on this topic?

As GSC said the issue is that they were caught unawares so the OL didn't do their job, fair play to Tampa for giving it a shot had a chance to go 2-0 and tried to take it. The chances of causing a fumble and recovering it and either taking it for a TD or having a hail mary shot downfield go for a TD may be slim but doesn't mean you shouldn't try, the chances of this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoqmiIYhd3Y ) happening are fairly low and it could have caused injuries but doubt anyone has complained (other than the coaches).

I was listening to retired defensive stalwart Brian Dawkins on the radio today talking with radio personality Mike Golic (another retired defensive player) and neither one had any sympathy for the Giants' whining. Dawkins said it was obvious from the stance of the Bucs defenders that they would be firing off the ball and the Giants should have gotten into a proper stance at that point. Yeah, I could see the Giants being miffed if they were up 2 scores with a couple seconds left, but with one score, you never know if you'll get the one in a million fumble, so why not go for it?

As they were saying on the radio the other day, when Herman Edwards scored on that infamous play (the Miracle in the Meadowlands) when the Giants ran the ball instead of killing the clock for certain victory, the Eagles had fired off the ball the play before when the QB Pisarcik kneeled, which pis.sed off the Giants and they then decided run a play next down, which resulted in Pisarcik fumbling the exchange with Csonka and coughing up the ball and losing the game. Here's a video of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1Ixd3jiGU

And we've seen it a few times over the decades where the offence appears to concede and then quick snaps the ball and catches the defenders all standing around and then throws for a TD and no one cries when that happens.

For myself, I have no sympathy with the Giants whining, but likewise, it was a cheap move by the Buccs.

It happened to me once, donkeys years ago. Up at least a TD, checked with the refs and they confimed a kneel down would kill the game, so we did it. Opposition rushed on the play just to be dicks with no intention to try to win. It wasn't so much the fact they rushed, as that they all piled on. It peed me off, not because it was classless in and of itself, but it could have gotten me or a team mate injured for absolutely nothing. I got out from under the pile and the ref had thrown a flag for unecessary roughness. He asked if we wanted to enforce it and I said (loud enough for them to hear) no, we'll take the win thanks and we all walked off grinning from ear to ear. In the end they looked the assholes.

The Buccs didn't break the rules, it was just pointless and stupid. The Giants whinging about it has only lent sympathy to the Buccs. Had they just gone off the field looking down their noses at the Buccs and pointing to the scoreboard instead, everyone would have been digging at the Buccs.

How is it pointless trying to score?

skins4ever wrote:For myself, I have no sympathy with the Giants whining, but likewise, it was a cheap move by the Buccs.

It happened to me once, donkeys years ago. Up at least a TD, checked with the refs and they confimed a kneel down would kill the game, so we did it. Opposition rushed on the play just to be dicks with no intention to try to win. It wasn't so much the fact they rushed, as that they all piled on. It peed me off, not because it was classless in and of itself, but it could have gotten me or a team mate injured for absolutely nothing. I got out from under the pile and the ref had thrown a flag for unecessary roughness. He asked if we wanted to enforce it and I said (loud enough for them to hear) no, we'll take the win thanks and we all walked off grinning from ear to ear. In the end they looked the assholes.

The Buccs didn't break the rules, it was just pointless and stupid. The Giants whinging about it has only lent sympathy to the Buccs. Had they just gone off the field looking down their noses at the Buccs and pointing to the scoreboard instead, everyone would have been digging at the Buccs.

So trying to get the win, however slim the chance, is pointless? That's not how competitive sport is played...

They weren't trying to score and if they were it's stupid and pointless, there was 5 seconds left the resulting pile from any fumble would've ran the clock down. It's just a classless move.

I honestly don't see the problem with any team playing 100% to the final whistle. In fact I am disappointed when any team I support in any sport doesn't.

I have never ever understood why NFL teams don't go to the end.

I think a lot of it may come down to respect of the traditions of the game, and probably a little bit to Tom Coughlin being a grumpy old so and so.

In my opinion, the ultimate expression of the 'just win (baby)' nature of the game is the kneel down play. It's sole design is to drain the clock and get the win. So I don't agree that someone trying to counter your desire to 'just win', by doing the same, is somehow taking a cheap shot.

Both teams were running plays designed to give them the best chance of winning, and both were totally within the actual rules.

What if there wasn't a pile an the RBs got mown
Down by blockers etc

I personally dont see a problem with the decision. They are down by 1 score, why not try to knock the ball out of Mannings hands, cause a fumble etc. Its not the defenses fault if the o-line arent ready for it, if it causes an injury then who cares, many players get injured walking around at home. If you manage to injure one of the oppositions best players then thats the offenses fault for not being prepared for the play, tough luck. This is football, not ballet....

They just had an offensive lineman on Mike and Mike in the Morning and he basically said the Giants O line knew what was coming but they didn't get set so shame on them -- just because you want to stop playing doesn't mean the other team is obligated to and if they're still going to tee it up, then you have to respond accordingly. Plus he said with the game having been hotly contested and with there still being a slim chance for the Bucs to win, he had no problem with them playing it out.

I'm not commenting - I'm still in too big a huff with the Giants for making up the "spirit of the salary cap" rule to be objective on this!

I realise that by making this comment that technically I'm commenting......

Guys, as one with experience of being in there, the chances of a fumble are extremely rare, although increased if the OL weren't set. For a kneel down, the QB gets right unders centre so he can take the knee quickly, instead of positioning to get away from centre quickly. All he has to do is take the snap and lower his knee to the turf about a foot, and it happens so fast no DL can get there before the play is dead.

If it isn't practiced, sure you could get a fumble, but this is the NFL - they rehearse EVERYTHING.

This isn't about playing to the end, giving up etc. The team with possesion in that situation will always kneel so defenses don't usually go after it, thus avoid pointless injuries. They play the odds.

In the end, my argument was that it was pointless for Buccs to risk injury on a play that they had nearly 0 chance of succeeding, but it WASN'T illegal. What was wrong about this was the Giants making so much fuss about it.

skins4ever wrote:Guys, as one with experience of being in there, the chances of a fumble are extremely rare, although increased if the OL weren't set. For a kneel down, the QB gets right unders centre so he can take the knee quickly, instead of positioning to get away from centre quickly. All he has to do is take the snap and lower his knee to the turf about a foot, and it happens so fast no DL can get there before the play is dead.

Obviously not true Schiano had 4 fumbles from it at Rutgers, yes it's the NFL but doesn't mean it can't work or happen. I understand you have the experience but you said up at least a TD to me that's slightly different if it was a two possession game then maybe I wouldn't agree with it as there's literally no chance of over coming that.

I don't quite get how it's a "cheap shot" though.

Here's an argument that I heard that for me solidifies the Bucs' position - what they did is EXACTLY how a defense plays when they're attempting to defend a suspected QB Sneak. Arguments about it being bad coz it's all shot to the knees is equally applicable to defending QB Sneaks. Should QB Sneaks be uncontested too?

I have a solution to the problem, in future if the giants are worried about it happening again they could always sub in the 2nd unit, take Manning or whoever else they dont want getting hurt and put in 2nd stringers, let them take the kneel down. Problem solved.

On a sidenote, would anyone else just love to see a fake kneel down? Say have someone speedy lined up just beside the tight end then watch him run past the whole defense, i wonder if thats ever happened? ...

I know I said I wouldn't comment, but can't resist, and in doing so, I'll probably upset both sets of fans. I kind of go along with skins4ever's viewpoint. While I've never ever played American Football, I've been watching it for over 20 years now and have obviously seen a lot of QB kneeldowns in that time - I just can't for the life of me see how a defender could get across the line of scrimmage quick enough to knock the ball out of the QB's hands before his knee touches the ground. No-one will convince me that's possible. I've never seen it and until I do, I won't believe it can be done. I know people have said that Rutgers forced 4 fumbles doing it but we all know the college game is a different beast from the NFL and what happens there doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL. So, while not illegal, it seems a pretty pointless thing to me to have done unless they have seen something on previous gametape that made them think that Eli Manning would take the kneel like a 75 year old with osteoarthritic knees.

Having said that, the Giants shouldn't be whining about it. They won the game. Just get off the field and move on to the next game. No harm was done so just move on. No-one whines quite like the Giants.

Also, just want to say, I hate QB kneels. Hate them. Get rid of them NFL. Do it now! Either just run the time off the clock or make them play properly until the last second. I don't care how you do it Mr Goodell but just get rid of one of the most ridiculous spectacles you'll see in any sport.