TV rights for Celtic Rugby and the European rows threatening Celtic rugby, a notice to all Rabo fans

I do not know if anybody is aware, but there is a programme on every Friday night at 9pm called sports Wales, now this is looking at the European row threatening the Celtic nations and TV rights for the Rabo league. I am waiting for this with baited breath and cannot wait to see what they tell us, after all we have all had enough to say about it on here recently. Bon appetit.

No European rugby for Ireland, Scotland, Italy and Wales will have huge negative consequences for us. Some think Ireland are in fine financial shape. But they'd lose 6 million a year, which would have dire effects. I think they'd just about survive as pro entities with IRFU help, but would lose stars to France and England. Wales, Scotland and Italy would be ruined. It's such a nasty threat from PRL.

Thankfully the French have distanced themselves from PRL with regard to pulling out for an Anglo French Cup. They've clearly stated they want to remain in European competition. So the English threat is rather hollow now. PRL are looking isolated. A compromise deal will be done and hopefully we can carry on watching the HC at its brilliant best.

Not the "dazzling" new competition that PRL have arrogantly conceived and tried to force down everyone's throats.

Well perhaps we can wait and see what they say on BBC 2 Wales tonight at 9pm, Feckless.

Its seems all the French want is the date of the final moved which seems a fairly easy solution.

Its the PRL who are pushing more for reforms to the HC qualification from the Rabo.

For what its worth I think the qualification should just be top 6

H-cup without the English sounds good, nobody likes them anyway do they .

Well former RFU chief Martyn Thomas is sticking the knife into the the PRL.

*Yawn* oops...sorry..was resting there for a bit in preparation for looking at the Six Nations next February. Irish lads, we're so *yawn stretch* relaxed.

Whilst not agreeing really, I do understand some arguments for changes. But the point about the French and English wanting the Rabo international players to be more battered and tired is backward and stupid, surely this point just proves the Rabo system is superior.

can some one explain to me how qualification for the whole torunament works at the moment?

Why don't they just agree to change the date of the final, then the French will stay put. Let us see if the England clubs are keen on pulling out then. The guy from the gaurdian had it so wrong, when will a team ever finish fourth in the Rabo and not qualify for Europe? Don't think we will ever have a top 4 Welsh or Irish finish!

I still think they way it is done is wrong but I cant see the Celtic Unions agree to change if it risks non representation - Unless the threat turn to reality and money speaks.

kingjohn7 wrote:Whilst not agreeing really, I do understand some arguments for changes. But the point about the French and English wanting the Rabo international players to be more battered and tired is backward and stupid, surely this point just proves the Rabo system is superior.

Well what it proves to me is that the Rabo12 lot are choosing freely to decide how to manage their own players within their own league.

In the same way that AP league does not have to/is not forced to choose how they hand out their HEC spots (it's their decision that HEC spots are for top six finishers in the AP league - that's not a directive from ERC) in the same way they have the freedom to choose how to approach that one, they also have the freedom to choose to rest players. That they choose not to is their prerogative. They assume/presume you can't win unless you play your top players all the time. Firstly, it's a lie and secondly no, it isn't a requirement at all. Developing depth requires that you actually use your second string more actively, not less so.

The other point is that with all this snoozing and resting and cat-napping and slumbering and cottonwool cryogenic suspension that Irish players in particular are accused of, that should actually play into the hand of battlehardened English and French sides. How can you be up to speed on HEC quality play if you're not playing enough? Another lazy bluff excuse. Money is the deal as was mentioned on the programme, not snoozing Irish players.

GavinDragon wrote:can some one explain to me how qualification for the whole torunament works at the moment?

Currently qualification for the HEC is awarded by the separate Unions. They are given a number of places,

England 6
France 6
Ireland 3
Wales 3
Scotland 2
Italy 2

with the other 2 coming from the winners of the previous year's HEC and Amlin. (There are some minor rules limiting the total any Union can have should they win both the previous year's European competitions)

It is up to each Union how they allocate their given places.

The French and English currently choose to send the top 6 teams domestic leagues to the HEC.

The other Unions use the final placings of their teams in the Rabo to decide which teams to send.

thanks mrs p, so what exactly do the PRL want? I mean on current numbers if they were to make it on league position it would only mean that the bottom 2 of the rabbo would miss out....or am i being dumb and missing something?

PRL would prefer that Pro12 would mimic the AP and Top14, and choose top 6 only to go through to HEC

so they only want a 20 team european competition?

Seems to me they just want more money and a chance to win the thing occasionally.

well, that's their ideal. Their point is that for a European competition to continue the onus is on Pro12 - they're the ones that have to allow the competition itself to become 'fairer'. Of course, what we all mean by 'fair' becomes the sticking point - we all have different opinions on that word

It's quite unfair at the moment. France and England enter more teams than all the other participating countries.

thanks for bringing me up to speed...

i think that it is in the wider interest of the game to have each european country represented in the european competition and see no problem with only the top two irish, top two welsh, one scottish and one italian as qualifiers.....

or even top one from each nation plus next two highest qualifiers

I suspect the argument goes something along the lines of,

"We bring in the biggest TV audiences and therefore the most money so we should get a bigger slice of the pie. ......and we'd like to be able to win it occasionally......and we don't seem to be able to do that as it stands so....."

this new tv deal, does anyone know what it would mean to the celtic/azzuri unions financially?

MrsP wrote:I suspect the argument goes something along the lines of,

"We bring in the biggest TV audiences and therefore the most money so we should get a bigger slice of the pie. ......and we'd like to be able to win it occasionally......and we don't seem to be able to do that as it stands so....."

Yeah...I'd think that's the abridged version of their argument, ok. They want a competition that lets them win more than at present. Winning brings the sponsorship clout and the kudos, and you truly can then market your League as the Best in Europe. At the moment both France and England try to market their leagues as such - and yet the detail is that for the past six or so years Pro12 has been the best (in quality if not in 'competitiveness'). And yet, let not the Pro12 dare to suggest such a blasphemous concept. Yes, winning is the issue because winning draws up bigger financial deals

thing is leinster/munster and to an extent the ospreys have sufficient strength in depth to do as they do already and manage teir playing resources to peak for the h-cup even if it ws only the top six rabbo qualified

The more I think about this and the more I read the more sceptical of the PRL's motives. The irish and welsh do not have automatic qualification. The Italian and scots do. But Irish dominance is attributed to their lack of need to constantly perform.

That's absolute rubbish, if Irish players were Molly coddled to the extent relayed here then they would perform much better internationally.

English rug y has problems in its organisation and power struggles between club and country and has had so for ten years and they are trying to enforce change on us rather than deal with their own issues.

The PRL deal with BT Vision is a joke, thankfully it seems to be an illegal joke and so hopefully won't be ratified.

The whole BT Vision deal relies on fans changing contracts from their current providers, Sky etc, to BT, hoping that thry will also buy their phone and Internet from BT too. The whole thing stinks to high heaven of what ITV Digital tried and failed to do with soccers premiership. And that was a complete balls up.

It is the type of high risk, short term gain bs that their short sighted city accountants love.

GavinDragon wrote:thing is leinster/munster and to an extent the ospreys have sufficient strength in depth to do as they do already and manage teir playing resources to peak for the h-cup even if it ws only the top six rabbo qualified

I think not only would they still be able to do it, I think they'd still try to do it - even if they were risking position. Risking position should always be part (a natural part) of trying to develop a squad that might win you something meaningful. I think its essential that young players are put alongside different mature players and given meaningful time and meaningful games to gain valued experience.

The PRL talk of what is required to perform. Well why should we look at them and accept they know what they are talking about. I'd prefer look at the side with limited player resources, who manages those resources very well indeed and who has used these management skills to not only attack HEC but also to sustain good position in the Pro12 year upon year. I'd look to the sides that are doing the business for a business and management model, not the English tough clubs who say you have to beat your players into the ground to succeed.

indeed....and having the top 6 qualify for the rabbo will do nothing to effect the attritional nature of the aviva as it has relegation to contend with.

so what are the potential outcomes?

The English and French club model is a poor money consuming expensive short term model we don't want to follow.

The Rabbo teams all have fine academies that train and provide good players for the future.

Yes I would like to see a more competitive Rabbo and I do not mind tougher qualification. And a tougher HEC would only benefit clubs of all countries and their fans but money is not the answer, organisation and long term planning is.

We are doing the right things that France and England are not.

Oh well, former RFU chief executive Martyn Thomas has basically said that the it is not about players welfare or how players are managed, but it is absolutley all about money and nothing else, he also called the PRL Bullies and the only way to stand up to the is to punch them in the nose, so you make of this as you will.

Interesting that the individual Unions are currently being held up as a guiding light by R12 fans on European structures, when the ERC are the management company, who by common consent have performed poorly.

Professional sport is as much about finance as it is performance and some of the usual indignation on here is short sighted. The football premiership is about to sign a 4 year deal worth around £3billion so the BT£150m deal is nothing to shout about, is it.

The french and the SH will leave us behind if we are not careful about our domestic product first before we worry about the icing on the cake with a European competition.....

As far as the playing side goes, perhaps the english and fench should just put three teams each into a Euro competition as R12 folk contend is the preferred model and then see what TV and sponsors would pay for it....

rec the SH domestic sides have no where near the money invested in their domestic game as the NH do...hence why so many of them end up in the Ap and Top 14.....

lets face it for the last 5-6 years wales and ireland have managed their resources better to perform on the international change....

you make the point about the football premiership......and what effect has that had on english international football? How many english players get to play week in week out? Very few because clubs are chasing the money....the same already happens in the AP to an extent....all this deal will do is add to this culture

The fact is that no proper euro cup will be bad for everyone, thats why a deal will be made.

Professional sport is as much about finance as it is performance and some of the usual indignation on here is short sighted. The football premiership is about to sign a 4 year deal worth around £3billion so the BT£150m deal is nothing to shout about, is it.

Footballs financial status is built on sand. Are you aware of how many clubs actually turn profit? Most top football clubs are millions of pounds in debt, hence why most clubs are owned by very rich benefactors. Are you suggesting that is a good business platform to follow. I seriously hope not.

Did the program say anything interesting? What was it saying about the PRO12 TV rights? Is it true that each union sells it's own PRO12 rights and keeps the money? If this is right then why would it be so bad if something similar happened in Europe, with all the money being shared?

If the PRL are in Europe next year the BT deal will be validated by the RFU. I will bet my metaphorical house on it.

FYI, it's on iPlayer

Just watched it. Generally from it was that Baron thinks the PRL are bullies and need a smack on the nose. This may well be the right thing to do but also Baron had a terrible relationship with the clubs, which hurt England. Also his behavior over the last few years wouldn't suggest him as a leading figure regarding 'morality'.

Hore at the Ospreys seemed to be saying PRO12 qualification changes would be good, saying that the PRO12 is the bread and butter and they need to make it more interesting to fans. The Cardiff guy was saying changes would be good as well as long as the English give in the money. So overall it seemed to be the Ospreys and Blues (is that guy involved with the Blues officially?) are in favour of some sort of changes to qualification. Baron thinks they should smack the PRL (I would remember that Baron has no vested interest anymore but he doesn't like the PRL).

Well here's an idea for the English if as they say they want to make it "fair" have the 6 top teams from Rabo. Now there are 4 countries in the Rabo so that leaves it with roughly 1 and a half teams each for the purposes of this lets say 2 per country. So in that case to make it "fair" surely the 1 country of England should then only have 2 teams in the cup too? I bet they would drop the idea like a stone. Also the English are idiots if they really think the French would rather leave the all European competition to play an Anglo-French competition. It's an attempt, a bad, vaguely disguised attempt at giving themselves a better chance of winning the tournament and so gaining more money from it. Manage your players better say what you will about teams managing player such as Leinster etc but they still finished in the top 6 of the Rabo last year doing it, it's about squad depth, if yours is not good enough that's really not Leinster's fault now is it.

Sigh

The French have said changes MUST happen and will only consider a Franglo cup if the negotiations break down. The English have said changes must happen and would pull out and try and set up a Franglo cup if negotiations break down. The changes that would appease the French would, in all likelihood, appease the English.

Irish international players play roughly around 32 games a season. English international players play a maximum of 32 games for season. Non-international players at the Provinces will be played as much as they're needed (hasn't Nacewa only missed something like 6 games since he arrived?). Difference is English internationals are spread thinner than the Irish internationals. Both treat players of the same 'level' the same.

Lastly, why do you think there were more English teams in the first place? Because everyone likes being beaten by them? (they were decent back then). No, it was for commercial reasons that are just as valid now (Provinces obviously are stronger generally now for commercial attraction).

All these things are being negotiated and what will come out will be something that everyone has agreed to.

Possibly what some have been forced to agree too Hammer you are very naive if you truly believe everyone in there will be perfectly happy to agree to whatever comes out. You are also saying that the 6 English clubs bring more TV revenue than the other's do, I very much doubt this is true, if you said the top 2 or 4 English clubs bring in that revenue you may be right but come on I doubt Exeter bring in a huge amount of money. I agree that changes could be good but I just wish they wouldn't wrap the rubish up as something it's not which some fans who don't have their own thoughts then believe as gospel. Tell everyone the REAL reasons stop trying to disguise it as something it's not.

What do you mean "forced to agree"? Do you mean sell out? Nobody is going to get their ideal. Everyone will make concessions. The only people I can possibly be forced into accepting would be the SRU and FIR on the threat of being kicked out of the PRO12. Can't see that happening.

BT are offering (depending on what you read) £60M-£100M for the UK English European Home TV rights for 3 years. Sky are offering £70M for all of the UK (and Ireland?) game TV rights for 4 years. You tell me how much the English games are worth compared with others. Of course we don't know. If you don't think the English games are worth much why do you think there are 6 teams in there?

Well there is a lot to consider here firstly BT are trying to get into the market so therefore such as ITV Digital tried to do they will overpay. Also I'm pretty sure that BT aren't just offering the money to watch the English teams they are offering it also because of the Quality of the opposition, do you think that BT would offer nearly as much if for example it was not Irish, French, Welsh etc, but instead say welsh league 2, AIB league, no French etc come on mate it isn't just the English teams they are offering for it's also the opposition. As for why there are 6 English teams probably because of representation on the board of ERC, tradition etc and I'm not saying some English teams are valuable but you are saying that for example no one cares about the best team in Europe for the last few years Leinster, or the star studded french teams, also as for French they have to started to realise money ain't endless just look at the difficulties some of their clubs have had. I'm not saying the Rabo is better etc, I'm not saying the Aviva is better i'm simply saying that the reasons are being lied to us. I have no problem with England etc arranging their own TV deals just don't try and lie to us about what it's really for.

Where did I say no-one cares about Leinster or others? Which is the best league in the NH? Generally it's the one your team plays in because you have an interest in it. More people in England (1.763654 billion registered rugby players), more interested in English rugby. That's the theory anyway. If BT are willing to 'overpay' isn't that their 'value'? It'll be interesting to see how much BT offer for the rest of the games.

I wish the other unions would be honest and say it's all about money for them too. They want as much as possible and are currently getting a reasonably good deal. What's 'fair' is completely subjective and doesn't mean anything.

What exactly is the real reason for the PRL making the TV deal? They said it's because they could make a lot more money than the ERC were. What's the real other reason?

Well firstly that a pretty high number of people playing Rugby considering the country only has 60million people in it according to you that 20ish times the amount of people living in the country who play rugby in the country
Well the English have proposed cutting the number of teams from the Rabo they are trying to say it's the way the Rabo's qualification isn't fair. Now the only real reason they could possibly want the Rabo teams cut is to give them a better chance of getting further in the Heineken therefore more money. However they don't seem to realise that even if they cut the number when you get to semis and final it will still mean if they aren't good enough the wont make these stages and still lose out that money and then will probably want change again. As for the money thing maybe the nations should be able to negotiate their own deals but lets not forget the ERC also negotiates tv deals with USA, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil, Canada, South Africa etc are they also going to negotiate these? One thing I think we can agree on here Hammer if it's for money why can't they all just say it's for money and not just wrap it up as something else to look less "bad" or whatever, we know they are all commercial so just say it guys don't insult the fans intelligence.

Unfortunately they think they've pulled the wool over our eyes. The PRL will already negotiate with all these countries regarding the Premiership coverage (if anybody wants it). They had control over those TV rights for a while.

A renegotiation of the competition is due. The circumstances of the participants is very different now compared with when it was set-up. Everyone needs to re-examine what it is they want from the competition and then negotiate it. There's nothing wrong with negotiating things. The English and French bring money to the table. That's about it. Whatever concessions the other unions make it'll be for the money.

One of the most interesting things that may come out of all this is changes to the Welsh system (lead from the inside). They have always seemed to be part way between the clubs and the provinces. The region are privately owned (by clubs and club owners) but heavily funded by the WRU. A lot of this funding comes from the HEC. Will there be a slight change in the balance of power? Who knows? It won't happen without the WRU consent of course.

[NB The comment regarding participants was relating to the comments (not here) regarding the wasted resources of the RFU since they have so many registered players.]

"England (1.763654 billion registered rugby players)"

I like it, Hammer. Nothing like a bit of exaggeration to make your point.

There is one running assumption in some of these posts that the Premiership works on a top 6 in awarding euro spots. They don't. Only the T14 does this currently.

The chase each year across the 3 leagues is for play off places. 4 in the Pro12 and AP, and 6 in the Top 14.

That's what clubs/teams fight for primarily each season. To get one of those spots. So there are very few dead rubber games in any league whilst those places are up for grabs.

The French give their 6 playoff teams the 6 euro spots they are granted under the current ERC agreement.

The Pro 12 doesn't give any of their playoff teams euro spots.

The English give their 4 playoff teams 4 of the 6 euro spots they are granted. They give the fifth euro spot to an English winner of the Anglo-Welsh Cup, and the sixth euro spot to the next highest ranked club not already given a euro spot. In theory, the winner of the AW Cup could be any one of the 12 clubs in the AP, so clearly, this is not a top 6 ranking.

Thus a switch to a strict top 6 league ranking across all three leagues would affect both the Pro12 and the AP as their qualifying rules are currently structured.

The BT Tv rights deal of £152m is for English teams only. It's not clear yet as to what the split between league and European comps and it is nominated in pounds sterling, not euro. One rumoured split is £88m for the Premiership and the balance of £64m for euro comps. Added to that would be the value BT would place on TV rights for France, Ireland and Italy, and possibly, Wales and Scotland. (dunno if UK rights includes N Ireland or if union boundaries apply).

The Premiership deal starts next season 2013/14, but any Euro TV rights deal could only start the following season in 2014/15.

What's not clear is whether the BT deal comes with any conditions attached to a new competition and new ownership structure being set up, i.e. one that does not include, or minimises the involvement of, national rugby unions. if it's not conditional, then the BT deal needs to be looked at seriously, and Skybe given an opportunity to make a counter offer for the entire thing, if it includes the French, Irish and Italian rights so that everything is on the table. A gerrymandered deal by either ERC or PRL is of less benefit to everyone.

+1 to all that Pot Hale.

The split for the BT deal is going to be interesting. When the PRL said the Euro money would be split between everyone I thought must have got a 'better' split towards the Premiership.

The first rumour I heard was £52M for League, £100M for Euro. That sounds crazy to me. No increase for the premiership and a crazy, ridiculous increase for Europe. £88M for League and £64M for Euro does sound more feasible. An increase of about 60% for the Premiership (an increase of about £1M per club per year). And a significant increase for Europe (is the £70M Sky offer confirmed?).

Selling TV rights has nothing to do with any unions other than the sellers. So if BT have the UK deals they include NI. This still needs to be ratified by the RFU, unless the PRL have been busy legally (perfect time for the London Welsh to join the party )

HammerofThunor wrote:+1 to all that Pot Hale.

The split for the BT deal is going to be interesting. When the PRL said the Euro money would be split between everyone I thought must have got a 'better' split towards the Premiership.

The first rumour I heard was £52M for League, £100M for Euro. That sounds crazy to me. No increase for the premiership and a crazy, ridiculous increase for Europe. £88M for League and £64M for Euro does sound more feasible. An increase of about 60% for the Premiership (an increase of about £1M per club per year). And a significant increase for Europe (is the £70M Sky offer confirmed?).

Selling TV rights has nothing to do with any unions other than the sellers. So if BT have the UK deals they include NI. This still needs to be ratified by the RFU, unless the PRL have been busy legally (perfect time for the London Welsh to join the party )

Ok- explain that last para to me - more slowly and in big letters,cos every times I think I get me head around these rights, something else comes up and I lose it again. You say if BT have the UK deal,they include NI (and obviously Wales and Scotland). So why don't they have Ireland, or France? Does the PRL or anyone else for thatmatter, have authority to sell the rights for their games only in their country, or only within their union territory? Equally, is the IRFU, despite representing two countries per se, only allowed sell rights for teams based in the ROI, or for the whole island? What about test matches for Ireland?

Not sure what goes on entirely with Ireland however it is impossible fro PRL to negotiate rights to the whole UK, BT as far as I know would only have rights for English home games not the UK as a whole as it stands. This could off course change

I'll use the RFU as an example. The RFU control (or have to approve) the right to broadcast Television coverage for every 'home' game that falls in their remit. this will be all the home games in England (not sure what happened about the Argentinian 'home' game at Old Trafford in 2009) So League home games, International home games, championship games, LV cup games, everything.

They will sell the right to broadcast in any particular country to specific companies. I've no idea who carries the English AI in South Africa, New Zealand, etc but the RFU sell the broadcasting rights to them. One example of this was the Argentina tour for England in 2009. The Argentinian union did not sell the broadcasting rights to any UK company so the games weren't televised here. This was probably because no-one was willing to offer a 'fair' price and they held out. The RFU have no power in this situation (except for buying the rights themselves and handing them on).

The IRFU control all the broadcasting rights for home games under their remit, which includes Ireland and Northern Ireland. They then sell the broadcasting rights to anyone they want, Ireland, UK, France, whatever. If someone in New Zealand watchs Ireland v New Zealand played in Dublin then it's because the IRFU have sold that company the New Zealand Broadcast rights for Irish home games.




I think



NeilThom, the PRL can sell the UK rights for the English games. They can't sell the English (UK) broadcasting rights to Irish home games

What Pot said. Also, How can they sell games that arent in England??? Ive been reading every post and thread but still cant understand.