Here we go, the Murray v. Djoko XVI, the shanghai final

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I have to say that this rivalry has been warming up in terms of quality. I think both guys are showing how strong, focused, and mentally engaged they are in the battle for tennis supremacy by being so good at this time of the year. Djoko last two seasons has run out of gas but he looks really capable of having his best indoor campaign in quite some time and maybe ever. Murray for his part just took out federer and I believe it was Craig but not sure who pointed out that he is riding a wave of 5 straight wins against fed and djoko. Novak should be the hungrier player as he has lost his last few against the big 4 when early in the year and last year he was dominating these encounters and he is locked in a number 1 fight. Murray for his part can't but help taking this match seriously as every match against one of his top rivals in a final is going to have significance.

Mathchup wise I think it comes down to who serves better. When the two best returners in the world are playing each other the player who executes better on serve is going to be at a huge advantage even more so than in other matchups. To me Novak has been the form horse but he is also playing with more pressure where Murray can afford to be a bit more relaxed. Novak didn't do a good job of attacking murray's second serve at the USO when in general he has made mince meat of that shot in many of their past encounters. Murray for his part I am sure is also looking for his chance at getting a good look at the Nole second set serve as well in the last match he absolutely abused Fed's vaunted second serve. I think for Murray the slice backhand will be crucial as this is one advantage he possesses over Novak. Novak can't get sucked into over hitting when murray decides to junk ball him, but he does have to come over the ball aggressively and not get baited in a chip and dink contest with murray. He has to attack murray more effectively than he was able to do both in Australia and in the USO final. I think the indoor conditions and his current form will allow him to do that. I look for the aggressor to win the match and I look for Novak to be the aggressor.

I can't say I am overly confident these two have been so close in terms of their head to head for so long and I don't see this match being different. I think Novak wins it in either two or 3 very tough and tight sets. Still can't say I would be overly surprised if Murray wins he has been the best player for my money from the start of the grass court season till now although Novak is perking up finely to finish the season as well.

EPIC!!!!

Novak Djokovic seals the win in three gruelling sets. Those were the type of matches he was winning last year and he came good in that sense today. Both players serve wasn't great and in the end the difference was in how Novak played the key points. I'd guess he won more of them. Andy will be kicking himself but I think we are now seeing that this pair of players are now very closely matched. Well done again to Novak.

UP all night baby, when has anyone rembered a player coming back from count them 5 championship points to win. What a rivalry how close was this thing? Novak 2.0 is officially back and now looks very strong for year end #1.

My thoughts on the first set I have to agree was attrocious in terms of serving both guys were misfiring like crazy with the first serve and eating up every single second serve return with monster returns. But the first set was a comdey of errors. The second set was maybe the most gripping set of tennis I have seen in quite some time. And the third set was just a testament I think to Novak wanting and needing this match more and was also of the highest level. Good run of 7 straight holds by Djoko to finish the match. But I do admit the serving in the first set was absolutely laughable from two players of this quality. I think a bit of nerves and maybe too much respect for the returning capabilities of the respective opponents.

5 in the morning and I still can't sleep thank god I took a nap this afternoon. As I have been saying for quite some time this rivalry will decide most of the big trophies especially on a hardcourt for the forseeable future. If the second and third set are any indication of what we are in for well then we its going to be an incredible ride.

I had to go to football at 4-4 in the first set, so I recorded the rest on sky.... Or so I thought! I watched it up until 11-11 in the second set tiebreak and then... Recording over. WTF???

Really p***ed off because it was great up until that point. There was a hairs breath between them. So, Craig - socal.... What was the difference at the end of the tiebreak and third set?

Danny, I think it came to Novak wanting it a little more than Andy. There really isn't much between these two. Novak had more to play for that was it for me more than any type of technical issue.

In my opinion the big difference was that at key moments Djoko's serve held up much better under pressure. Andy had his chance in the second set and had an opportunity to serve out for the title but his serve let him down. In the third set the roles were reversed and Djoko's serve held up better. Not a great deal between them and it could have went either way. In my opinion that is.

Yes Novak did I think finish the match serving well and murray not too complicated on that score. I think Novak held his last 7 service games and in this matchup that was epic serving.

Did you guys see the tweener from Djoko followed by the supple little drop shot, unbelievable.

I still can't get over the 5 championship points to win the title. I wonder when a player has done that last? That would be an interesting piece of trivia if someone could find it.

The tweener was a big BIG moment in the match because it was at 30-0 (I think) when Murray was serving for it.

It was a marvellous point, one of about 8 or 9 marvellous points that I saw.

I guess Novak just got the better of the big points, and when 2 players are this closely matched that's enough. Congrats to Novak, the guy who gets the W and lifts the trophy deserves it and he well and truly is back.

For Murray, I guess he'll be furious to lose after having 5 championship points but I'm not too down about it. These two are going to have a lot of titanic battles for big titles over the next few years and I can't wait to watch more of them.

Said it before and I'll say it again, it's my favourite match up on the tour by some distance.

Obviously disappointing if you are Andy Murray or a Murray fan considering the amount of Championship points but it shows that Andy is now at the same level as Djokovic in my opinion. Novak himself can take great heart from this win as it bears the same hallmarks of wins from impossible positions last year.

socal1976 wrote:I still can't get over the 5 championship points to win the title. I wonder when a player has done that last? That would be an interesting piece of trivia if someone could find it.

Dont quote me socal but I think it may have been Rafa playing Nalbandian at "God knows where" Im sure someone like Lydian would be able to tell me.

I think it was Indian Wells 2009 not sure.

Good positive words from Murray after the match:

Murray said he was disappointed by the loss but paid tribute to Djokovic.
"I've lost tougher matches than that before and I'm sure I will recover," said the world number three. "But it was a top-quality match. Both of us played some unbelievable tennis at times.
"It was literally the difference of one, two centimetres in winning the match and losing it. You have to put things into perspective. It was obviously a bit frustrating but it was so close and could have been a different outcome.
"The third set he played better than me. When I had my chances he served very well and hit the lines when he needed to. Most of our games have been tight, close matches but I feel like my game is there."

Yes I can't argue with that or Novak's view that it could have went either way. A very enjoyable match despite the outcome in my opinion.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Obviously disappointing if you are Andy Murray or a Murray fan considering the amount of Championship points but it shows that Andy is now at the same level as Djokovic in my opinion. Novak himself can take great heart from this win as it bears the same hallmarks of wins from impossible positions last year.

I agree Craig, I mean if you go from the end of the clay court season till now Murray probably has been the best player of the last few months. It is even more clear now how close the contest is between the two I think as a neutral I have always had faith in murray's ability and predicted that he would raise the bar of his game. The athleticism and shotmaking was absolutely jaw dropping from both players it must feel eerie to them when they square off because they are so close in terms of ability and in terms of their strengths. When Murray and Djoko fight each other cross court backhand to backhand it is something special to watch, as you just don't see backhands like those two have very often ,and to see them try to out blast and out think a player that must almost seem like his tennis twin.

Just seen this thread. However I've said this on an other but I'll repeat it on here.

Very annoyingly I couldn't watch the match and have been unable to post until now. Sounded like it was very close but after Djokovic won the second set he was in charge. So well done to Djokovic for a deserved win. I look forward to more contests between them in the future. At the moment it seems very hard to predict who will win.

Must say socal I just loved the moment when Djoko played that shot between his legs and ended up going on to win the point and that great big cheeky grin came across his face in the second set. Perhaps it was so good to see considering that at that time I think he was standing two points away from losing at 4-5 15-30. A great moment.

Well that stinks Calder I feel for you. 1st set was a comedy of terrible serving the second set was an instant classic and 3rd set was really tense and tight as well was some remarkable shotmaking.

Just seen some clips on the news. Not a good day for racquets!

Also never noticed before how much Murray looks like one of the WII characters when he does that head hanging thing after losing a point

Just got to watch some of the match there, great match. The two of them are so closely matched at the moment! Can't get over how many times djokovic seems to save match points, quite incredible. Well played Murray too, some great shotmaking by both players and they are such unbelievable athletes

I think the refreshing thing here between their competitive matches is the uncertainty. If we look at other match-ups between the top players:-

Nadal V Federer - Rafa largely has had Roger's number for some time.

Nadal V Djokovic - Barring clay, Novak has Rafa's number on other surfaces.

Nadal V Murray - Nadal has the upper hand here.

Federer V Murray - Close rivalry in best of three matches but Fed has the advantage big time in best of five matches.

Federer V Djokovic - In recent big matches Novak has the upper hand.

Murray V Djokovic - Very close to call and makes it exciting.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I think the refreshing thing here between their competitive matches is the uncertainty. If we look at other match-ups between the top players:-

Nadal V Federer - Rafa largely has had Roger's number for some time.

Federer V Djokovic - In recent big matches Novak has the upper hand.

1. Off clay the last 6 meetings are 3 - 3. How is the next meeting going to be predictable?

2. Don't the Wimbledon semi and the Cincy final count as big matches?

CaledonianCraig wrote:Must say socal I just loved the moment when Djoko played that shot between his legs and ended up going on to win the point and that great big cheeky grin came across his face in the second set. Perhaps it was so good to see considering that at that time I think he was standing two points away from losing at 4-5 15-30. A great moment.

Yes Craig it seemed like the tension left him after that point. It is great when you actually see the competitors enjoying the fight and enjoying the experience. When was the last time that these two play and they both break racquets, Novak at the end of set 1 and Murray at the end of the second set. I love players that show emotion and bring you along for the ride. Both these guys I think do that so well and that is why I really see fans connecting more and more to these two. At one point early in the third set you could read murray's lips on camera as he kept saying, "I shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be here". I mean you get such an emotional ride and from both guys as well as the shot making.

1. Well I am tending to think more on the big matches and in their last four slam meetings Rafa leads 5-0.

2. Using same slam meetings rating in recent times Novak leads 4-2.

In any case Roger's fans seem to be accepting that their man is past his best so can't see that rivalry getting spicier from here on in if that is the case.

Some people moan about racquet smashing like that, but not me. I love to see how much it means to them. Especially when I've heard so many people say the top guys don't really try in masters, and the results aren't that important to them. Those 2 racquets would prove otherwise. Great passion to win.

That tweener moment probably was the turning point of the match. If he misses it, or gets it wrong and loses the point, it's 40-0 and 3 match points. That I believe would have been too much for even Novak 'I come to life when match point down' Djokovic!!

Federer just needs things to be set up well for him now. He can't just rock up at events and kick everyone around, he needs a lot of preparation and a good environment that suits him.

However, if he gets those things he's a problem; Djokovic and Murray in three days at Wimbledon showed that.

I tell you what I liked this match a lot more than any fedal match I have seen in years in terms of athleticism, shotmaking, and competiveness. Fedal matches in recent years have been pretty routine. Roger can still beat Rafa on indoors and a fast court probably in a best of three setting. Other then that Rafa has his number and most of the patterns of play are so predictable as well. I don't know watching Rafa hit 1100 cross court forehands at fed's backhand is just not as engrossing as it once was.

CaledonianCraig wrote:1. Well I am tending to think more on the big matches and in their last four slam meetings Rafa leads 5-0.

2. Using same slam meetings rating in recent times Novak leads 4-2.

In any case Roger's fans seem to be accepting that their man is past his best so can't see that rivalry getting spicier from here on in if that is the case.

But if only slams are big matches, why was today's Masters any big deal?

Danny_1982 wrote:Some people moan about racquet smashing like that, but not me. I love to see how much it means to them. Especially when I've heard so many people say the top guys don't really try in masters, and the results aren't that important to them. Those 2 racquets would prove otherwise. Great passion to win.

That tweener moment probably was the turning point of the match. If he misses it, or gets it wrong and loses the point, it's 40-0 and 3 match points. That I believe would have been too much for even Novak 'I come to life when match point down' Djokovic!!

Novak could be distant cousin of Harry Houdini with what he has done this year on break points and match points. I think the players care about masters finals absolutely. You have to go through all that effort and you are playing for a lot of points and a lot of money. But more importantly every big 4 matchup now has added significance because of what these champions have accomplished in recent years. In my mind that is why I would never trade what we have now for more mediocrity, I mean parity.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:1. Well I am tending to think more on the big matches and in their last four slam meetings Rafa leads 5-0.

2. Using same slam meetings rating in recent times Novak leads 4-2.

In any case Roger's fans seem to be accepting that their man is past his best so can't see that rivalry getting spicier from here on in if that is the case.

But if only slams are big matches, why was today's Masters any big deal?

Not saying it is but their last two slam meeting have been very close and could have went either way.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:1. Well I am tending to think more on the big matches and in their last four slam meetings Rafa leads 5-0.

2. Using same slam meetings rating in recent times Novak leads 4-2.

In any case Roger's fans seem to be accepting that their man is past his best so can't see that rivalry getting spicier from here on in if that is the case.

But if only slams are big matches, why was today's Masters any big deal?

Not saying it is but their last two slam meeting have been very close and could have went either way.

True. Whereas the last 2 slam meetings between Djoko and Fed have been very one-sided towards one player?
And you wouldn't want to watch Fed v Rafa at, say, the WTF, because it would be too predictable?

Julius at the WTF indoors is one of the few places that fed can still be competive over Nadal so I would want to see that match. But lets say watching fed play Nadal at Rome or RG, well I actually don't find that to be that exciting a prospect in the least. Fed has no chance for sure.

I'm confused about Craig's perspective on Djokovic / Federer at Slams. In the last 6 it's been two clear wins for each man, and two where the winner saved match points.

And he finds that predictable?

As for recent meetings, well they both went to Federer.

We do know though, that Federer and Nadal have played possibly the best match in the history of tennis. It took place in 2008.
The match which we will always remember.

Arguably the highest quality of tennis that has ever been played by one of the competitors. The nail-biting finish which left spectators on the edge of the set.
People were thinking: Will Nadal do it? Can Nadal do it?

Can he really bagel Roger Federer in a Grand Slam Final?

Yes. He. Can. French Open Final 2008.

bogbrush wrote:I'm confused about Craig's perspective on Djokovic / Federer at Slams. In the last 6 it's been two clear wins for each man, and two where the winner saved match points.

And he finds that predictable?

As for recent meetings, well they both went to Federer.

Anyway, kidding aside...

I agree with BB Fed-Djoko is a very close rivalry too. Fed-Murray will also be interesting, if they play in slams next year.

socal1976 wrote:Julius at the WTF indoors is one of the few places that fed can still be competive over Nadal so I would want to see that match. But lets say watching fed play Nadal at Rome or RG, well I actually don't find that to be that exciting a prospect in the least. Fed has no chance for sure.

Yeah, I've been losing interest in Fed/Rafa matches for quite some time. As I said before, I'd be quite happy if neither were in the top 4 this time next year, although I doubt that will happen.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Julius at the WTF indoors is one of the few places that fed can still be competive over Nadal so I would want to see that match. But lets say watching fed play Nadal at Rome or RG, well I actually don't find that to be that exciting a prospect in the least. Fed has no chance for sure.

Yeah, I've been losing interest in Fed/Rafa matches for quite some time. As I said before, I'd be quite happy if neither were in the top 4 this time next year, although I doubt that will happen.

It was always a bother just because of the match up thing, and the certain knowledge of what point was going to happen endlessly but to be fair there's something big about it. They're the Big Beasts.

Still, get them on a decently fast court if you can find one and its different. A case of what might have been in a different decade, but I think Federer has to be happy with what he got dealt.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Julius at the WTF indoors is one of the few places that fed can still be competive over Nadal so I would want to see that match. But lets say watching fed play Nadal at Rome or RG, well I actually don't find that to be that exciting a prospect in the least. Fed has no chance for sure.

Yeah, I've been losing interest in Fed/Rafa matches for quite some time. As I said before, I'd be quite happy if neither were in the top 4 this time next year, although I doubt that will happen.

Not only has the result been the same but the patterns of play have been so similar as well with Nadal serving and hitting almost exclusively to fed's backhand, although fed has changed his game plan a bit. Oh I think we will have a big 4 though next year, I just think they will shuffle the seats possibly and hopefully Novak gets the birthday boy seat again.

It Must Be Love wrote:We do know though, that Federer and Nadal have played possibly the best match in the history of tennis. It took place in 2008.
The match which we will always remember.

Arguably the highest quality of tennis that has ever been played by one of the competitors. The nail-biting finish which left spectators on the edge of the set.
People were thinking: Will Nadal do it? Can Nadal do it?

Can he really bagel Roger Federer in a Grand Slam Final?

Yes. He. Can. French Open Final 2008.

No question but there isn't much mystery in this matchup really since that match. It is almost like that rivalry peaked there and really didn't have anywhere to go but down from there. Historically you would be correct there is more weight to a fedal match but in my mind it just isn't that close between the two. Unless here is the caveat they play on indoors then Roger as the flatter ball striker and more aggressive player does much better. But if it isn't a 3 set indoor I just don't see Roger having much of a chance. And the fact that they play on clay so often even increases the tedium for me. Because it isn't really match on clay as much as a formality.

Like the last time they played on clay?

As for '08, well I think it's a bit naughty to pretend Federer wasn't in trouble that year. Hell, he even managed to lose to Roddick and Blake that year!

To be fair Nadal was a beast in 2008 on clay...I don't think anyone would have got near him that FO no matter what condition they were in.

bogbrush wrote:Like the last time they played on clay?

As for '08, well I think it's a bit naughty to pretend Federer wasn't in trouble that year. Hell, he even managed to lose to Roddick and Blake that year!

Are you referring to Fed's gifted masters on Ian Tiriac's dodgey non-clay court in madrid? Wow trotting out the Madrid win as evidence of fed's competiveness with Nadal on clay.

socal1976 wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Like the last time they played on clay?

As for '08, well I think it's a bit naughty to pretend Federer wasn't in trouble that year. Hell, he even managed to lose to Roddick and Blake that year!

Are you referring to Fed's gifted masters on Ian Tiriac's dodgey non-clay court in madrid? Wow trotting out the Madrid win as evidence of fed's competiveness with Nadal on clay.

No he's talking about FO 2011... which was actually a tight match (Fed was winning the first set IIRC).

He didn't play Nadal on Teflon Smurf Blue. Think he means 2011FO which had much faster balls than normal.

Don't rush to BB's aid too fast Lydian the "last time" means the last time they played on clay, and I believe BB was talking about Madrid because that was the last time they played if my memory serves me right. Don't worry he will twist the meaning of the words himself to try to show that he was right, you don't have to do it for him.

Hey? I'm just explaining what he meant IMO, I don't need to be told who's defence I'm rushing to or not...why barb my words?

socal1976 wrote: I believe BB was talking about Madrid because that was the last time they played on clay if my memory serves me right.

It really wasn't.

socal1976 wrote:
Don't worry he will twist the meaning of the words himself to try to show that he was right, you don't have to do it for him.

Socal I try to be fair when I can (as you know), but I'm not really sure you have a case here.

The last time they played on clay was the FO final. They didn't play each other in Madrid. It think it's fair for anyone to clarify facts at any point, if they wish to.

socal1976 wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Like the last time they played on clay?

As for '08, well I think it's a bit naughty to pretend Federer wasn't in trouble that year. Hell, he even managed to lose to Roddick and Blake that year!

Are you referring to Fed's gifted masters on Ian Tiriac's dodgey non-clay court in madrid? Wow trotting out the Madrid win as evidence of fed's competiveness with Nadal on clay.

What the Hell are you talking about? They didn't play there, Verdasco beat Nadal.

I was referring to the tightly fought French Open final of 2011.

Those words twisted enough?