British and Irish Lions Watch 2012-13

First topic message reminder :

This thread started many months back and has been a gradual examination of who is picking who for the impending Lions Tour.

Now the Six Nations is over and all we have left to judge is the HEC and the various national leagues.

You never know Poor, that may be far closer to the truth than any coach would care to admit!

Glas a du wrote:And Kearney is just class. He won't pick Hogg whilst there's a hole in his harse I'm afraid. Just not Gatland's type.

In what way?

Glas a du wrote:And Kearney is just class. He won't pick Hogg whilst there's a hole in his harse I'm afraid. Just not Gatland's type.

MmM, i think Hogg is bit of a red herring as a starter, right now it is 1/2s to lose unless Kearney starts to fire...Hogg is a great player and will definitely figure at some point but 1/2 is so solid and kicks he is invaluable at 15...he was the only good thing about wales tour in 2012

welshboii15 wrote:My team well the ones Id like to see.

PROPS; A.Jones,D.Cole,Cross,Marler,Bevinton,C.Healy.

HOOKERS;
T.Youngs,R.Best,K.Owens

SECOND ROWS;
AWJ,R.Grey,I.Evans,J.Launchbury

BACK ROW;
C.Robshaw,T.Wood,T.Faletau,SOB,B.Morgan,K.Brown.POM

SCRUM HALF;
D.Care,B.Youngs,M.Phillips

FLYHALF;
D.Bigger,O.Farrel,J.Wilkinson

CENTRE;
M.Tulagi,JD2,BOD(cpt),B.Twelvetrees

WINGERS;
T.Visser,G.North,T.Bowe,C.Wade

FULLBACK;
S.Hogg,L.Halfpenny

11Welsh/14English/6Irish/5Scotsh

Total=36

Cross?

Are you serious? I read somewhere you claim to have played a high level of rugby! Really????

If you're taking any of the Scots front row then I'm afraid to say that Grant and even Ford are way ahead of Cross.

Cross

And will people stop putting Visser in their team. Try machine yes but he will be walked all over by the Australian backline.





Still laughing at Cross.........made my day that has.

Maybe Cross will go as medical support to Dr James Robson. That's the only way I can see him going.

Hogg will only play if the coaches are expecting to win plenty of turnovers and receive a lot of loose tactical kicks for him to run back. If Gatland's expecting a much tighter affair then Halfpenny or Kearney will start.

On Ryan Jones - I'm not sure his supposed ability to play 7 will help him, as he's got less experience there than any of Wood, O'Brien, Brown etc, and while he's put in a couple of big performances in wet conditions recently, there's the question over whether he's really dynamic enough to match Australia round the field in June. The Lions won't be short of leaders whatever happens, so he'll have to outplay Wood, O'Brien and Faletau to start.

If by dynamic you mean ball carrying then no. If you mean the uncanny ability to be at the point of the action a là Dean Richards, then yes he has. Jones is a fantastic spoiler and excellent bench option.

June is d winter.

Yeh, I didn't mean to imply that it was summer - I just meant that the games against France and Italy won't necessarily resemble the Lions tests in style, and Jones won't necessarily be the right type of player for them, regardless of how well he's playing at the moment.

Cross played pretty well on the weekend... although he was facing Tom Court mind... the best prop since Peter Wright.

Grant is a far better prospect.

fa0019 wrote:Cross played pretty well on the weekend... although he was facing Tom Court mind... the best prop since Peter Wright.

Grant is a far better prospect.

Yep, Grant has a very good chance of touring, and hopefully can prove himself in the midweek gaems to perhaps feature on the bench. Healy despite his honourless antics is the front runner by some distance.

Is he? Says who? Healy, Heaslip, O Brien are all vastly over rated.

Glas a du wrote:Is he? Says who? Healy, Heaslip, O Brien are all vastly over rated.

I would not say that any of those lads are over rated at all. They are all very good and have proved so numerous times. Heaslip and SOB have not had the impact they did a season ago for sure, but Healy is in remarkably good form this year.

Is he? Really?

Glas a du wrote:Is he? Really?

Who?

Healy!

Oh. Then yes he has been the form Loosehead this season beyond a shadow of doubt.

There we are then

I take it that you do't rate Healy?

Would you like to tell us what puts you off him?

Using your logic, the fact that he's over rated...

As the opposition will be Australia whom favour a fast and dynamic style of gameplan, I won't be surprised at all if the Lions backrow running out for the first test consists of Robshaw at 6, Warburton at 7 and Ryan Jones at 8. Also the Aussies have 2 world class fetchers and ball retrievers in their backrow with guys like Pocock etc so it is vital that the Lions have to match them in this aspect of the game in order for them to have any chance of winning the test series.

gboycottnut wrote:As the opposition will be Australia whom favour a fast and dynamic style of gameplan, I won't be surprised at all if the Lions backrow running out for the first test consists of Robshaw at 6, Warburton at 7 and Ryan Jones at 8.

Why those three? Because they're fast and dynamic too? If so, I'd question your openside and number eight.

gboycottnut

But that's possibly the least dynamic back row you could have possibly chosen, short of swapping Easter in for Warburton and moving Jones and Robshaw to the flanks. It's not necessarily bad, but if you want a dynamic back row then 6. Wood 7. O'Brien 8. Faletau would make much more sense

Glas a du wrote:Using your logic, the fact that he's over rated...

Why do you think he is over rated? What roles does he not fulfil in your opinion?

Alternatively who has been better than him over the last couple of years?
Having him and Cole in the front row would give the Lions a lot around the park in addition to a solid scrum. They are both proper modern props.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Alternatively who has been better than him over the last couple of years?
Having him and Cole in the front row would give the Lions a lot around the park in addition to a solid scrum. They are both proper modern props.

Both in the Gethin Jenkins mold?

Just a little food for thought. Kelly Brown is quietly throwing down a serious marker for himself :

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/rbs-6-nations-lions-watch-%e2%80%93-round-3/

The Scotland captain currently has a face like a burst pavement, having been thrown at the feet of so many Irishmen at the weekend. However, he is leading the 6 Nations with more tackles (43) and more turnovers (7) than anyone else, even the great Thierry Dusautoir.

With success possible with Saracens in Europe and the Aviva Premiership, and with him putting in an impressive shift for Scotland, he may be the ideal candidate for a gruelling tour and a trusty confidant for whoever is selected to captain the squad.

I trully did not know he turned over so much ball. Probably because in the first 3 games Scotland have barely had the ball!

Gatland has no time to build a team, so he should select national units rather than individuals. The English scrum is probably the strongest so he should pick Marler, Hartley and Cole as his front row. Similarly the Scottish locks know each other's game in the lineout. Tipuric is by far the best openside to counter Pocock, and with Faletau and RJones they are balanced as a backrow because they know each other's roles.
Same could apply to the backs, but it is far more important in the pack as they are the ones who have to win the set piece plays.

The Great Aukster wrote:Gatland has no time to build a team, so he should select national units rather than individuals. The English scrum is probably the strongest so he should pick Marler, Hartley and Cole as his front row. Similarly the Scottish locks know each other's game in the lineout. Tipuric is by far the best openside to counter Pocock, and with Faletau and RJones they are balanced as a backrow because they know each other's roles.
Same could apply to the backs, but it is far more important in the pack as they are the ones who have to win the set piece plays.

Had this debate on another thread. That has it's strengths but also it's weaknesses.

Take the lions frontrow in 89. Sole, Moore & Young one of the most formidable front rows in Lions history with 3 differant nationalities present.

Or the 74 Lions with WJM & Broonie in the 2nd row.

Or in 97 Dawson, Townsend and Guscott
Or in 2009 BOD & Roberts.

To get the best out of the 4 nations that represnt the Lions you have to mix it up.

The Great Aukster wrote:Gatland has no time to build a team, so he should select national units rather than individuals. The English scrum is probably the strongest so he should pick Marler, Hartley and Cole as his front row. Similarly the Scottish locks know each other's game in the lineout. Tipuric is by far the best openside to counter Pocock, and with Faletau and RJones they are balanced as a backrow because they know each other's roles.
Same could apply to the backs, but it is far more important in the pack as they are the ones who have to win the set piece plays.

English halfbacks?

Irish midfield?

Scottish back three?

It doesn't need to work like that, we have better options. The team have as much time to gel as any new coach has with a new international team.

It will be interesting to see the final outcome though as every week a man is named as a certain starter and a game later he is relegated from such a glorious position as another takes his place.

There is great competition for places all around the park and this should make for an excellent lions squad. Hopefully reflecting the abilities of all the home nations.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Or in 97 Dawson, Townsend and Guscott

I think it was Gibbs at inside centre who stole the show.

maestegmafia wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Or in 97 Dawson, Townsend and Guscott

I think it was Gibbs at inside centre who stole the show.

Gibbs played the 1st test and Guscott the second. Delete as appropriate. They both played parts in the wins.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Had this debate on another thread. That has it's strengths but also it's weaknesses.

Take the lions frontrow in 89. Sole, Moore & Young one of the most formidable front rows in Lions history with 3 differant nationalities present.

Or the 74 Lions with WJM & Broonie in the 2nd row.

Or in 97 Dawson, Townsend and Guscott
Or in 2009 BOD & Roberts.

To get the best out of the 4 nations that represnt the Lions you have to mix it up.

Two things have changed since the tours of yore.
1. The Lions have nowhere near as many matches for the players to learn each other's game.
2. The opposition are professionally coached units who practice, practice, practice.

It has been proven time and again, a settled professional side will beat a scratch collection of individuals.

This applies much more to the set piece and hence the forwards than the backs. In fact to give the Lions the best chance an entire national pack should be chosen. Any one of the four packs would almost certainly be a more effective unit than the eclectic mismash that will be selected.

maestegmafia wrote:It doesn't need to work like that, we have better options. The team have as much time to gel as any new coach has with a new international team.

It will be interesting to see the final outcome though as every week a man is named as a certain starter and a game later he is relegated from such a glorious position as another takes his place.

There is great competition for places all around the park and this should make for an excellent lions squad. Hopefully reflecting the abilities of all the home nations.

As I said it is far more important to have team units in the pack.

How is it remotely close to any new coach with a new Test team?
1. Gatland has to get far more players to gel who have NEVER played together before at any level under any coach.
2. Very few new coaches know they only have three Tests and they MUST win two of them against a top 3 side - and that with next to no practice.

Front Row:

Booked their place on tour: Best, Healy, Cole

Probables: Jones, Ford, Youngs

Next in Line (in order of preference): Jenkins, Marler, Grant, Corbisiero


Second Row:

Nobody has booked their place for definite because its so tight

Probables: Launchbury, Gray, Ryan, AWJ, Parling

Next in Line: Evans, Hamilton, Lawes, POC


Back Row:

Booked place on tour: SOB, Robshaw

Next in Line: Faletau, Wood, Brown, Jones, Tuperic, Morgan, Heaslip, Ferris, Lydiate


Scrum Halves:

Booked Place on tour: Youngs

Next in Line: Care, Laidlaw, Phillips, Murray


Out Half:

Booked Place On tour: Sexton, Farrell

Next in Line: Biggar, Flood, Wilko


Centre:

Booked Place on Tour: Tuilagi

Next in Line: BOD, Barritt, JD2, 12Trees, Roberts


Back Three:

Booked Place: .5Penny, Hogg, Bowe

Next in Line: North, Maitland, Cuthbert, Kearney, Visser, Gilroy, Zebo, Goode

How can someone have booked their place if they're currently injured? They may not recover in time, or at least not recover in enough time to be match fit before the tour.

Injuries happen which is another reason why it would be much better for Gatland to select Test units rather than a pick and mix. If the FR was comprised of say Healy, Youngs and Jones (who have never played together before), and one of them gets injured - all the collective nous they will have accumulated in whatever short time they have played together disappears and they have to start from scratch with a new substitute.
OTOH if the FR was Marler, Hartley and Cole, and say Joe got injured it would be much easier to slot in Corbisero over Healy for example.

Healy might be individually better than Corbisero but he would have no experience of playing with the English FR and no time to learn how to.

I still find it amazing that names like Bowe, Ferris, Corbisiero etc are still being mentioned as tourists despite not playing at all in the 6N!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I still find it amazing that names like Bowe, Ferris, Corbisiero etc are still being mentioned as tourists despite not playing at all in the 6N!!!

Just because someone is injured dosen't mean that they can't come back into form.

The Great Aukster wrote:How can someone have booked their place if they're currently injured? They may not recover in time, or at least not recover in enough time to be match fit before the tour.

Injuries happen which is another reason why it would be much better for Gatland to select Test units rather than a pick and mix. If the FR was comprised of say Healy, Youngs and Jones (who have never played together before), and one of them gets injured - all the collective nous they will have accumulated in whatever short time they have played together disappears and they have to start from scratch with a new substitute.
OTOH if the FR was Marler, Hartley and Cole, and say Joe got injured it would be much easier to slot in Corbisero over Healy for example.

Healy might be individually better than Corbisero but he would have no experience of playing with the English FR and no time to learn how to.

I have to say I just don't buy it...... Anyway a front row of Healy Best Ross would be better, with Kilcoyne on the bench.

No one who is injured and not playing in the 6N now should go - except perhaps sexton if he recovers in time

TJ wrote:No one who is injured and not playing in the 6N now should go - except perhaps sexton if he recovers in time

That is a ridiculous comment, in particular the second part. I'm going to take a wild guess here and that you're english and you are afraid the likes of Bowe, Ferris, POC, Lydiate, Sexton, Zebo, might take away some of the english players. The Lions isn't about the amount of representation form your country, it's about picking the best squad of players. Lets put our international differences behind us for the lions.

On the point of units rather than individuals I think that also goes against the ethos of the Lions.

He's Scottish

It would be nice to make sure the players mentioned are at least somewhere near fitness and form though, and England have a couple of contenders (Corbisiero, Croft) out too

Its not ridiculous at all. How can you say for example Bowe has a ticket on the plane when he hasnt played recently? Sexton is the only one I would exclude from that if he recovers in time as 1) we have no replacement for him and 2) he has already played and showed his form in this six nations.

The players need to be showing their form - taking crocks has proved costly in the past. Why pick ( again for example) Bowe when we have North, Foden, Ashton, Visser, Maitland, cuthbert etc etc as wingers?

If Gatl;and takes players who have been out injured this six nation it will be a huge mistake.

Taking unfit players and those who have not proved their form would be a bad mistake. No player is irreplaceable - sexton being he nearest to it

Lydiate is another classic example - injured, not playing, no shortage of high quality inform uninjured replacements

gleesonisgod wrote:

TJ wrote:No one who is injured and not playing in the 6N now should go - except perhaps sexton if he recovers in time

That is a ridiculous comment, in particular the second part. I'm going to take a wild guess here and that you're english and you are afraid the likes of Bowe, Ferris, POC, Lydiate, Sexton, Zebo, might take away some of the english players. The Lions isn't about the amount of representation form your country, it's about picking the best squad of players. Lets put our international differences behind us for the lions.

On the point of units rather than individuals I think that also goes against the ethos of the Lions.

Actually TJ is Scots, and the ridiculous comments are yours - none of the first four have had the opportunity (unfortunately) to showcase their talents this season, and given that Fatland has already indicated that 6Ns (and AIs) would the matches that he would judge on, these lads cannot be up for selection (as unfortunate for the Lions as that is). I suspect that Sexton has already shown enough, possibly Zebo too

TJ wrote:Lydiate is another classic example - injured, not playing, no shortage of high quality inform uninjured replacements

*whispers*

Never as good as the alternatives anyway...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:

TJ wrote:No one who is injured and not playing in the 6N now should go - except perhaps sexton if he recovers in time

That is a ridiculous comment, in particular the second part. I'm going to take a wild guess here and that you're english and you are afraid the likes of Bowe, Ferris, POC, Lydiate, Sexton, Zebo, might take away some of the english players. The Lions isn't about the amount of representation form your country, it's about picking the best squad of players. Lets put our international differences behind us for the lions.

On the point of units rather than individuals I think that also goes against the ethos of the Lions.

Actually TJ is Scots, and the ridiculous comments are yours - none of the first four have had the opportunity (unfortunately) to showcase their talents this season, and given that Fatland has already indicated that 6Ns (and AIs) would the matches that he would judge on, these lads cannot be up for selection (as unfortunate for the Lions as that is). I suspect that Sexton has already shown enough, possibly Zebo too

Bowe played in the AI's. O'Connell I really doubt will go but there is always the possibility. Ferris on the other hand, if he gets back and shows form for Ulster he could very well go. In 2nd row we are not short of top class players but in the back row we're looking a bit thin.

gleesonisgod wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:

TJ wrote:No one who is injured and not playing in the 6N now should go - except perhaps sexton if he recovers in time

That is a ridiculous comment, in particular the second part. I'm going to take a wild guess here and that you're english and you are afraid the likes of Bowe, Ferris, POC, Lydiate, Sexton, Zebo, might take away some of the english players. The Lions isn't about the amount of representation form your country, it's about picking the best squad of players. Lets put our international differences behind us for the lions.

On the point of units rather than individuals I think that also goes against the ethos of the Lions.

Actually TJ is Scots, and the ridiculous comments are yours - none of the first four have had the opportunity (unfortunately) to showcase their talents this season, and given that Fatland has already indicated that 6Ns (and AIs) would the matches that he would judge on, these lads cannot be up for selection (as unfortunate for the Lions as that is). I suspect that Sexton has already shown enough, possibly Zebo too

Bowe played in the AI's. O'Connell I really doubt will go but there is always the possibility. Ferris on the other hand, if he gets back and shows form for Ulster he could very well go. In 2nd row we are not short of top class players but in the back row we're looking a bit thin.

Think our backrow is pretty decent, Ferris could well tour as he is class, but I 'd say our second row was more of a weakness