British and Irish Lions

I am again convinced after watching the english vs Wales "final", that Cuthbert and North are the first choice wings for the Lions tour.

They both run with conviction, at pace and don't fear contact.

Their defence is strong, much better than Visser's whos name has been thrown about, and to be honest Ashton doesn't come close. I don't know if Bowe will be available, but he will be my other choice.

I don't know about Ashton for the Lions, think he may struggle to get into the English side at mo.

Cuthbert ran very intelligently today, I agree with you him, Bowe should be in the Lions, I thought North seemed a bit slower than usual today for a winger.

Thought Faletau put his name down for the number 8 spot today.

Hooker I think may be a problem position. Best didn't do himself any favours today and neither of the English hookers looked impressive. See how ford do later.

Visser needed to claim his place - so far he simply has not. One more game to show something. Ashton has done little to claim a spot either.
Halfpenny has been the class act of the backs of the 6N. He is on the plane.

Tipuric or however you spell it was great. Good return to the ball carrying 7. Warburton also excelled today at 6.
Said before the match that after the last 3 dour rounds its giving Gatland a difficult task in picking those who are going to perform against the Ozzies. Today Wales made his task that much easier.
I thought Flavell rallied well in a losing side so he'll still go.
Some Lions jerseys were certainly swapped on the field out there today thats for sure.

To win against Australia you need an attacking threat. Farrell didn't do himself any favours and he should be worried given that Halfpenny is a dependable kicker. Flyhalf is a big problem.

The centre combination is an interesting conundrum as well. BOD lacks pace but is a beast at the breakdown and is a great passer of the ball. Tuilagi can break the line and has pace and power but lacks distribution skills.

Cuthbert and North are big, quick lads who can prove a handful for the Wallabies. Tipuric, SOB, Warburton, Robshaw, Beattie are all in the mix but what will the all important balance be?

I think the big selection headaches are going to be in the backs because that is where the Lions will have to be efficient as the forwards on offer look strong and imposing. Combinations are the key but to me the key problem area is the centres. What game does Gatland want to play and will he select players who can give attacking ball to the wingers?

OzT wrote:I don't know about Ashton for the Lions, think he may struggle to get into the English side at mo.

Cuthbert ran very intelligently today, I agree with you him, Bowe should be in the Lions, I thought North seemed a bit slower than usual today for a winger.

Thought Faletau put his name down for the number 8 spot today.

Hooker I think may be a problem position. Best didn't do himself any favours today and neither of the English hookers looked impressive. See how ford do later.

BOWE, should not be on the Lions tour. Is even back playing for his club yet?

Ashton? before todays game i would of said that he was deffo on the plane. But after todays game. NO.

my squad:

LH: Jenkins, Healy Vanipolo
Hooker: Hibbard, Youngs Best
TH: Jones, Cole
Locks: Jones, Evans, Launchberry, Gray
Blindside: Robshaw, Jones, O Brien
Openside: Warburton Tipuric
No 8: Faletau, Morgan,

SH: Phillips, Youngs, Laidlaw
OH: Farrell, Sexton
LW: North, Zebo
IC: Roberts, Tuilagi, Marshall
OC: BoD J Davies
RW: Halfpenny, Cuthbert
FB: Hogg, Kearney

With Alyn Wyn Jones as Captain with Ryan Jones leading the mid week team

Nailed on Welsh players

Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins, Richard Hibbard
AWJ
Ryan Jones, Tipuric, Warburton, Faletau
Mike Phillips
Dan Biggar
North
Jamie Robinson
Half Penny

13 players.

Id have North and Halfpenny, with Hogg at fullback. Bowe if back fit and on form is obviously a class act too.

Biltong wrote:I am again convinced after watching the english vs Wales "final", that Cuthbert and North are the first choice wings for the Lions tour.

They both run with conviction, at pace and don't fear contact.

Their defence is strong, much better than Visser's whos name has been thrown about, and to be honest Ashton doesn't come close. I don't know if Bowe will be available, but he will be my other choice.

They are amazing. First choice by a mile.

Wouldnt have Halfpenny if he just sits in the boot. He got wraps for todays match when all he did was kick goals and the usual fullback stuff. If they dont play an attacking fullback then thaye half gone. Comes back to the Dagg Halfpenny duel from another post. When the team is scoring ties Daggs always in the thick of it, either scoring them, setting them up, or is right there when the try is scored. Halfpenny was nowhere near either of the Welsh tries, nor did he put himself up for attack.

You just cannot have a FB not consistently testing the advantage line and beat the top 3.

Thats my only criticism of the Welsh gameplan today. The rest was superb.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

Biltong wrote:I am again convinced after watching the english vs Wales "final", that Cuthbert and North are the first choice wings for the Lions tour.

They both run with conviction, at pace and don't fear contact.

Their defence is strong, much better than Visser's whos name has been thrown about, and to be honest Ashton doesn't come close. I don't know if Bowe will be available, but he will be my other choice.

They are amazing. First choice by a mile.

They're certainly the first choices if they stay fit but Visser has improved the defensive part of his game during the 6N and should be considered for the wider squad/dirt trackers, he must be a sounder selection than Ashton on current form

The problem for all cuthberts prowess in attack... Hes just the sort of player AUS will lick their lips in antipication playing. Guys like him are 10 a penny in super rugby and players like Beale and O'Connor, Ioane etc not only probably beat him for pace but will run circles around him in attack.

No point playing a guy who yes can score say 1 try every match but may let in 2 due to his defensive frailties. He played well today I take my hat off... But Wales had front foot ball all game.... Had it been the other way around I think it would have been very different.

I think to beat AUS the lions have to look hard into how to beat AUS Wales tried route 1 rugby against them 5 times last season... And AUS just lapped it up every game. We're going to have to think very differently such like mcgeechan did in 97.... Playing smaller, less strong props and league centres on the wing. not the same but similar left field approaches.

They play far bigger sides week in week out at super rugby and vs. SA and NZ, route 1 to AUS is no problem.

Personally if Zebo is fit I'd play him with halfpenny on the other wing. Fullback is a tricky one but Hogg is a good player and if Foden found some late form I'd also think seriously about taking a punt on him.

Isnt there a feeling that Cuthbert and North tend to run hot and cold. Sometimes theyre both very absent, sometimes theyre like today, which was superb. Is it the ball quality coming their way?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Id have North and Halfpenny, with Hogg at fullback. Bowe if back fit and on form is obviously a class act too.

That a fine pick. Another good game from hogg today - but lets face it there are half a dozen or more wingers who would not be out of place in the lions. Depends on style but north hallfpenny and hogg has a nice attacking edge to it

Visser again was poor defensively today. When Basteraud went through to set up Fofana's try McVisser was slapping at air instead of making a tackle allowing Nyanga to get an easy offload away having fallen off the big man.

One name not mentioned is Sean Maitland. As a former Crusader he is used to playing big games in Oz against Super 15 opponents. HIs defensive play is excellent and he has a great turn of pace, seting up a couple of tries this season for Scotland.
I think he has an outside chance of making the plane.

Certainly apart from North and Cuthbert nonone else has put their hands up. Mike Brown showed today what happens when you play a good, but not quick ,full back out of position on the wing: burnt on the outside by a genuine winger.

I understand halfpenny isn't very attacking but no ifs or buts hogg isn't half the player that halfpenny is, he's been rather poor last couple games poor under the high ball not that good in defence. The best back three for the lions is going be halfpenny north Cuthbert, halfpenny north Maitland or halfpenny Maitland bowe. Halfpenny has been the one of very few outstanding players

fa0019 wrote:The problem for all cuthberts prowess in attack... Hes just the sort of player AUS will lick their lips in antipication playing. Guys like him are 10 a penny in super rugby and players like Beale and O'Connor, Ioane etc not only probably beat him for pace but will run circles around him in attack.

No point playing a guy who yes can score say 1 try every match but may let in 2 due to his defensive frailties. He played well today I take my hat off... But Wales had front foot ball all game.... Had it been the other way around I think it would have been very different.

I think to beat AUS the lions have to look hard into how to beat AUS Wales tried route 1 rugby against them 5 times last season... And AUS just lapped it up every game. We're going to have to think very differently such like mcgeechan did in 97.... Playing smaller, less strong props and league centres on the wing. not the same but similar left field approaches.

They play far bigger sides week in week out at super rugby and vs. SA and NZ, route 1 to AUS is no problem.

Personally if Zebo is fit I'd play him with halfpenny on the other wing. Fullback is a tricky one but Hogg is a good player and if Foden found some late form I'd also think seriously about taking a punt on him.

That is total BS, Wales were beaten at the breakdown in Aus and Cuthbert still run Ioane and co ragged, he scored tries and made great yardage with ball in hand!!!

If Aus 'lapped up' wales why did they react with such excitement after winning the first and nicking the 2nd tests?? The reality of the situation was that Wales were the better team for 2 tests and made key match losing mistakes.

If Cuthbert & North are the Lions wingers, Australia will be laughing all the way to the bank. Been there, done that. Easily exploitable by the quality proper wingers that we have.

In terms of the wingers Cuthbert has thrown himself back into contention although his defence is still suspect. It was also great to see North looking good again as he could be a huge weapon if fit! Ashton, Visser aren't even near IMO, Brown isn't a wing and with Irelands injury problems it's very hard to make a prediction about their many talents there!.

If fit I'd take Bowe in an instant as he's the best all round winger we have by a fair distance to my eyes. Alongside him I'd now take Halfpenny (as a winger foremost), North and Bowe/Zebo/Cuthbert - i.e. if Bowe or Zebo are fit I'd still take them over Cuthbert but if not I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him travel if his all round game continues to improve.

Wing is the weakest position for the Lions by some distance.

This is looking silly now.

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton / Biggar
9. Phillips

I was impressed when Mako Vunipola came on for England, he is excellent in the loose, he should definitely tour

gelodge wrote:Wing is the weakest position for the Lions by some distance.

Eh? We have a load of quality wingers who would grace the lions. Of those who have shown some form in this series:

North, cuthbert, Visser, Maitland, Zebo. Add to that Bowe, Ashton, Foden

Centre, fly half are the positions of weakness

TJ,
I agree, mate. Fly half is a major weakness, especially if Sexton cannot travel. We knew this before, but we had no worry about Sexton's health.

Cripe, next thing we are going to see is Andy Goode in a Lions jersey.............

I dont think any of the options are the full shilling and i maintain that based on this 6N and the fact that he hasnt had the chance to f**k up, Tommy Bowe will start for the Lions (injury permitting)

Cuthbert is brilliant on the front foot but can be got at. He will only get better though. North has been watching to many keith Earls videos i fear. Still another who will definitely go.

Visser isnt good enough defensively. maitland is the best all rounder i have seen. Zebo could come into contention but hasnt really had a chance to show what he can do.

as it stands i think i would take the two welsh lads, Bowe and maybe maitland.

Props (6);

Healy, Jenkins, 

Three horse race between Vunipola, Marler and Grant, I think you take Grant because he's the most consistent but Vunipola's work in the loose might swing it.

Jones, Cole

Two way tussle between Ross and Murray, the god follower is the better player.

Hookers (3);

Hibbard, Best

One of the most open positions with Youngs, Ford, Hartley and possibly Rees in contention, I'd take Youngs but it'll be close.

Lock (5);

Evans, Parling, Lauchbury, Jones

The injury to Gray opens up the 5th slot but if fit I'd take him and if not Ryan, Hamilton, Lawes, O'Connell and Hines will be in the frame, on form big Jim would possibly take it but I think they'd take a punt on O'Connell.

Flanker (4/5);

Wood, O'Brien, Robshaw, Tipuric

What a nightmare position, possibly one more spot available and it'll be between Warbuton, Brown and Jones, unfortunately I think they'd go Welsh despite Brown playing consistently well for Scotland.

Number Eight (2/3);

Faletau

The below average performances of Heaslip have opened the door to Beattie and maybe Morgan, I'd definitely take the fit and in form Beattie.

Scrum-half (3);

Philips, Youngs

Another three way race between Murray, Laidlaw and Care, I think Laidlaw's versatility and goal-kicking could give him an edge but wouldn't be surprised if they went for Care's tempo.

Fly-half (3);

Sexton, Farrell

Biggar has probably put himself in pole position but he's done very litte, unfortunately there's not much competition but I'd prefer Hook or possibly Flood.

Centre (4/5);

O'Driscoll, Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi

Maybe one more spot available, Barritt probably deserve it but Scott, Marshall and Twelvetrees are in the hunt.

Winger (4/5);

North, Cuthbert

Two spots available and there's reasonably slim pickings but Visser's strike-rate should secure him a ticket and then it's reasonably open between Gilroy, Maitland, Brown, Ashton and maybe Bowe or Zebo, I think Maitland offers the most currently.

Full-back (2/3);

Halfpenny

Either Kearney and Hogg both go or one will stay at home, Kearney has been average but solid whereas Hogg made a couple poor mistakes against France but has been the best counter-attacking player in the tournament, I 'd prefer to take both.

Healy, Jenkins, Grant, Cole, Jones, Murray, Hibbard, Best, Youngs, Evans, Jones, Parling, Launchbury, Gray, Wood, O'Brien, Robshaw, Tipuric, Warburton, Faletau, Beattie - 21

Philips, Youngs, Laidlaw, Sexton, Farrell, Biggar, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi, North, Cuthbert, Visser, Maitland, Halfpenny, Hogg - 16


Welsh - 15
English - 9
Scottish - 8
Irish - 5

Standulstermen wrote:I dont think any of the options are the full shilling and i maintain that based on this 6N and the fact that he hasnt had the chance to f**k up, Tommy Bowe will start for the Lions (injury permitting)

Cuthbert is brilliant on the front foot but can be got at. He will only get better though. North has been watching to many keith Earls videos i fear. Still another who will definitely go.

Visser isnt good enough defensively. maitland is the best all rounder i have seen. Zebo could come into contention but hasnt really had a chance to show what he can do.

as it stands i think i would take the two welsh lads, Bowe and maybe maitland.

I think Maitland is definitely the best all rounder. I don't expect him to tour personally, but I think he has a lot to offer. His defence against Ireland was epic, I was sitting very close to where he made two try saving tackles, something I think perhaps Bowe and Cuthbert would struggle to do. Maitland's defence has been solid the whole tournament. Perhaps if Glasgow win the Rabbo and Maitland continues to play well he'll be in with a chance. I Know I'm a Scottish fan so I really want as much Scottish representation as possible, but I really think maitland would be fantastic player to have, especially with his knowledge and experience of SH rugby.

One of the issues with the wingers is none of them got much ball. Scotlands back 3 got more ball and made more yards that Wales in their game - and that wasn't much

Flyhalf is more of a worry Sexton the best of the bunch but its not saying a lot - Farrel has looked limited and not good under pressure, no one really shone

TJ wrote:

gelodge wrote:Wing is the weakest position for the Lions by some distance.

Eh? We have a load of quality wingers who would grace the lions. Of those who have shown some form in this series:

North, cuthbert, Visser, Maitland, Zebo. Add to that Bowe, Ashton, Foden

Centre, fly half are the positions of weakness

A few of those are decent on their day, but due to injury, form, lack of experience or just incomplete game they're hardly inspiring starting prospects at present. I can only see them coming second best to their opposite numbers and the entire Aussie backline. I think we're far more competitive in pretty much every other position on the pitch.

reallybored wrote:Props (6);

Healy, Jenkins, Grant, Cole, Jones, Murray, Hibbard, Best, Youngs, Evans, Jones, Parling, Launchbury, Gray, Wood, O'Brien, Robshaw, Tipuric, Warburton, Faletau, Beattie - 21

Philips, Youngs, Laidlaw, Sexton, Farrell, Biggar, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi, North, Cuthbert, Visser, Maitland, Halfpenny, Hogg - 16


Welsh - 15
English - 9
Scottish - 8
Irish - 5

Id be well happy with that ratio. A Lions Tour can set players back years. It makes them or breaks them. I want as many of our younger squad well away from it and developing under a new coach for RWC2015.

Just hope BOD makes it. He thrives on it and winning a Tour would end his career nicely.

After yesterdays game and the whole 6-N really, it will be populated by mostly Welsh and English players. It means more to them than most Irish players, to be honest. So, all good.

reallybored, you say you prefer hook?? his showboat of a backflick pass to no-one to give england a clear break and chance to score is one of the many reasons he can only make the bench for wales.

twice now he's come on at the end, admittedly for only a few minutes(thank god) with us in control and we were going for more tries, and we have fizzed out. no more one man shows please, those days are over.

fa0019 wrote:The problem for all cuthberts prowess in attack... Hes just the sort of player AUS will lick their lips in antipication playing. Guys like him are 10 a penny in super rugby and players like Beale and O'Connor, Ioane etc not only probably beat him for pace but will run circles around him in attack.

No point playing a guy who yes can score say 1 try every match but may let in 2 due to his defensive frailties. He played well today I take my hat off... But Wales had front foot ball all game.... Had it been the other way around I think it would have been very different.

I think to beat AUS the lions have to look hard into how to beat AUS Wales tried route 1 rugby against them 5 times last season... And AUS just lapped it up every game. We're going to have to think very differently such like mcgeechan did in 97.... Playing smaller, less strong props and league centres on the wing. not the same but similar left field approaches.

Oh dear talking rubbish again. You do know that they've never run circles around him right? Wales winning tournaments seems to really bother you for some odd reason. Every time the 2012 championship is talked about it's "Wales aren't that good, the opposition was rubbish" and now you're regurgitating the same ol. .

Visser can kiss his Lions chances goodbye. Behind the front-runners for the back 3 us 'pundits' believe that the one finisher would go on tour for the midweek team. Cuthbert has booked his place on the plane. He scores tries in big games, Eng and Fra in the title deciding games, and tries against NZ and Aus. Those are some cold, hard facts you can't dispute.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The problem for all cuthberts prowess in attack... Hes just the sort of player AUS will lick their lips in antipication playing. Guys like him are 10 a penny in super rugby and players like Beale and O'Connor, Ioane etc not only probably beat him for pace but will run circles around him in attack.

No point playing a guy who yes can score say 1 try every match but may let in 2 due to his defensive frailties. He played well today I take my hat off... But Wales had front foot ball all game.... Had it been the other way around I think it would have been very different.

I think to beat AUS the lions have to look hard into how to beat AUS Wales tried route 1 rugby against them 5 times last season... And AUS just lapped it up every game. We're going to have to think very differently such like mcgeechan did in 97.... Playing smaller, less strong props and league centres on the wing. not the same but similar left field approaches.

They play far bigger sides week in week out at super rugby and vs. SA and NZ, route 1 to AUS is no problem.

Personally if Zebo is fit I'd play him with halfpenny on the other wing. Fullback is a tricky one but Hogg is a good player and if Foden found some late form I'd also think seriously about taking a punt on him.

That is total BS, Wales were beaten at the breakdown in Aus and Cuthbert still run Ioane and co ragged, he scored tries and made great yardage with ball in hand!!!

If Aus 'lapped up' wales why did they react with such excitement after winning the first and nicking the 2nd tests?? The reality of the situation was that Wales were the better team for 2 tests and made key match losing mistakes.

That and Joubert. I agree with you otherwise. Although in that first test we were comprehensively outplayed.

I think Cuthbert should tour. He's a decent strike runner, no one can doubt that. I do stand by my belief that the lions still need a better all-round player for the test side.
Give him the front foot and he's a very good player upfront. Take that away and what do you have.

Put Visser in that side and he would be equally strong... he lives off scraps in our side, its no comparision and given his Rabo stats and awards are testimony to this. But Visser is also defensively weak so even if he would tour he doesn't have the game to test.

Morgan, pretty sad that you trolled through the blog to find an earlier article written yesterday but each to their own I guess.

Wales played well yesterday and deserve everything they got... veyr few teams do back to back 6N titles. However if you really believe its just due to the odd mistake in test matches then I think your record vs. the SH will continue. Overall odd mistakes should equal themselves out... they don't equate to losing 5 on the bounce vs AUS nor 22 losses in 23 games since you've won 3/6 6N titles.

Morgan, pretty sad that you trolled through the blog to find an earlier article written yesterday but each to their own I guess.

What are you talking about?

I would play every one of those Welsh forwards yesterday - absolutely immense. Could not see a weakness.

I would take Cuthbert as well, hes a proven finisher, obviously a bit frail defensively though

Cuthbert and North are both limited players, but they're big and fast enough to be as good as anyone else and should go. Visser is also big and fast enough but offers little else so no need for another of that ilk. Maitland looks a far more complete player than any of the above and given how quickly he has integrated into the Scotland team should also go. Wade should go for the experience as he will be a contender in the future.

Can't believe anyone would pick Bowe given that he hasn't played. As usual players get better in people's estimation when they're not playing. As an Ulster fan I definitely wouldn't want him to go as playing at full intensity with no more than a handful of games under his belt could end his career and for what - a pointless tour to make money for Australia!

North is not a limited player.

Aukster you are right but the reality is if you are looking for the top two inches then Bowe nails a spot. North and Cuthbert are gifted as hell but they still need to learn which is why I hope they stay in Wales (is that confirmed?) as their development comes first.

I don't know how Bowe couldn't be in contention give the paucity of options. It depends on how and when he returns though and I say again, the hand of injury will have a massive part to play before we get even a hint of a test team

Right now you could name the welsh front and back rows, 1/2p at full back and Cuthbert on the right wing - a full Welsh spine to the side.

Scrum half will be an issue - Phillips was a weak link for Wales last night and I've not seen a good 9 in the tournament. Against Genia it could be the position that sinks the Lions.

9 is tricky. Philips did what he does but I cannot have been the only one screaming at him to get the ball moving. Laidlaw had a decent championship but did not really get the outside backs moving. Showed his sharpness around the ruck tho.

I think Gatland will go with Philips but I think ti will be a mistake.. its a pity none of the real 9s really put a hand up.

"Phillips was a weak link for Wales last night"

service was glacially slow as ever.

Is any Irish player worth a place in the Lions first team?

Pot Hale wrote:Is any Irish player worth a place in the Lions first team?

Sexton
BOD
Healey
Bowe

How about Kearney? His areal skills are phenominal.

Biltong wrote:How about Kearney? His areal skills are phenominal.

Trouble is the games played on the ground