England Inside Centre

Inside Centre is a huge issue for most English members of 606 at the moment. Just who should be in England's starting centre partnership?

The majority of people argue that Tuilagi must start, most state at 13. Some claim he could play a Nonuesque role at 12, which could help provide space for a more cutting edge 13 such as Joseph or Lowe. Some have even put forward the argument of using his strike running and physicality from the wing, however his positioning and defence may be exploited in defence.

At inside centre three players are already in the EPS; Barritt, Turner-Hall and Allen. Don't get me wrong, all three players are integral for their clubs. Barritt is the defensive linchpin for Saracens, Turner-Hall is the go to man in Quins attack and Allen is claimed to be the gel that glues Leicester's midfield together. The only major problem for me is that all three players are extremely solid, yet mostly unspectacular. Barritt is the best defensively, Turner-Hall is the best ball carrier and Allen is the best all rounder, but none of them really provide the x-factor for me.

Twelvetrees is another player who many posters recognise as having a shed load of potential. I must admit that with more game time for Gloucester he is starting to impress. His passing can be exquisite, his tackling can be aggressive, his kicking can be a potent weapon. However, his decision making, positioning and consistency aren't completely up to scratch, I feel he needs a bit more experience at Gloucester before his best attributes can be used on the international stage. Burrell, Banahan and Geraghty are all options that may be considered as well, Burrell is extremely physical and I'm sure with more game time and exposure in the Saints environment will improve his game. Banahan is unfortunately injured at the moment, but is an extremely important player for Bath. Poor Geraghty doesn't seem to be getting much of a look in for Irish at the moment, a player who had so much promise has really gone off the radar.

In my opinion, there is one solution to the inside centre conundrum. Despite not being included in the EPS or the Saxons squad for a substantial period of time, Dom Waldouck has really impressed me since joining Saints from Wasps. He has been on the cusp of many England squads over the past few years and despite having only just turned 25, he has been around for a very long time. Injury has blighted his career, but he has looked extremely consistent, influential and sharp this season for Saints. His distribution is as good as most fly halves, his step, speed and vision have created many opportunities for the Saints outside backs, whilst his never say die attitude in defence has been highly impressive, he made 19 tackles and missed none, for Saints against Glasgow in the Heineken Cup at the weekend. He also has the ability to play both centre positions, which would help England bring the best out of Tuilagi.

This for me would leave a selection conundrum of who to pick on the left wing. You could go with a specialist winger such as Monye, Sharples or Wade. Or you could play Joseph on the wing, and he could interchange with Tuilagi in attack and defence, which would keep the opposition guessing. Joseph has experience of playing on the wing, whilst his running game would be more suited to open spaces.

My backline for England vs Fiji would look like this...

09. Care
10. Flood
11. Monye
12. Waldouck
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Joseph

I also feel Cipriani's form for Sale over the next few weeks should be closely monitored, as I feel he could really bring an x-factor to the England back line. However, if his form does not warrant selection, then he should not be considered.

Kyle eastmond ?maybe in the future.played fly half at the weekend,

I think Eastmond is a good shout - he's an exceptional talent and I think 12 may be where he's best suited. In terms of ability in traffic he is probably without parallel in English rugby, and he's a top quality distributor too. He's slightly on the small side, but punches well above his weight. You'd want Tuilagi outside him though.

In the meantime I think Twelvetrees is closing in on the starting shirt. When he carries the ball he carries an attacking threat that Barritt, Allen and JTH can't match.

Barritt is still the man in possession IMO.

Anyone who watched Edinburgh vs Saracens will know what Barritt can do.

There is this perception that he's just a one dimensional defensive centre but there's more to his game than that.

Yeah ....gotta say its Barritts shirt at the moment.

Lets not forget...in his carreer with England hes had a pack thats given zero ball carrying...whilst predominantly playing outside Farrell.
No one is gonna look good with that combo.

Lets see if the pack can get some go forward...get flood in the game...and see what Barritt offers. THEN we can have the debate about 12's.

Oh and Tuilagi should be nowhere near 12 until hes playing there regularly for Leicester.

Can Joseph not operate at 12?

I've never understood why not. He has a good kicking game from what I've seen, and also seems to read the game very well. He also has the pace off his side and outside step to create space in a channel for a larger, bruising 13. That would allow Tuilagi to play at his natural 13.

I agree that for the time being, Barritt is the man in possession of the 12 shirt, especially for the Fiji game, where his defence will be invaluable.

Agree with that Geordiefalcon.

Most backs struggle when their pack is under the cosh.

Tuilagi is a decent 13. Leave him there.

No mention of Fitzpatrick? What's going on?

Well its just an opinion, but I think Twelvetrees and Tuilagi are England's best hope of a good long term centre partnership.

Those two paying outside Flood, Burns or maybe Ford might give England the first decent midfield for a while.

No mention of Fitzpatrick? What's going on?

Ah mate i think i was boring people besides hes not even starting for us at the moment...hes back in the development / A side.
Guess Deano has decided for all his freakish power...he needs to improve his handling and skills (something we all knew anyway)

Twelvetrees is a definate option...and i would actually have him on the bech for the Fiji game...to see how he goes.

As ive said before...the midfield is definately an issue but more so is the lack of serious carrying and momentum coming from the pack. This is what the backs live off.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah ....gotta say its Barritts shirt at the moment.

Lets not forget...in his carreer with England hes had a pack thats given zero ball carrying...whilst predominantly playing outside Farrell.
No one is gonna look good with that combo.

Lets see if the pack can get some go forward...get flood in the game...and see what Barritt offers. THEN we can have the debate about 12's.

Oh and Tuilagi should be nowhere near 12 until hes playing there regularly for Leicester.

Have to say I agree with virtually every word of that. Barritt has kind of been tarred with a "Jamie Noon" brush, I think - solid in defence but not offering much going forwards. Let's not forget that Barritt played 10 for Sharks in SA, and has a decent passing and kicking game we're yet to see.

beshocked wrote:Barritt is still the man in possession IMO.

Anyone who watched Edinburgh vs Saracens will know what Barritt can do.

There is this perception that he's just a one dimensional defensive centre but there's more to his game than that.

technically Manu is the man in possession - having started the last two England tests in the 12 shirt. He did of course switch to 13 when Barritt replaced Joseph in the drawn game.

Barritt will however, injury permitting, wear 12 against Fiji as he is the most rounded of the 3 ICs in the EPS.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Barritt is still the man in possession IMO.

Anyone who watched Edinburgh vs Saracens will know what Barritt can do.

There is this perception that he's just a one dimensional defensive centre but there's more to his game than that.

technically Manu is the man in possession - having started the last two England tests in the 12 shirt. He did of course switch to 13 when Barritt replaced Joseph in the drawn game.

Barritt will however, injury permitting, wear 12 against Fiji as he is the most rounded of the 3 ICs in the EPS.

Technically you are correct indeed but M.Tuilagi only played there because Barritt was injured.

Twelvetrees might well be the long term solution but he still needs to get so more consistency.

As it stands I would say the 12 pecking order is Barritt,Twelvetrees then the rest.

In regards to 13 it's Tuilagi and Joseph.

Waldouck is the joker in the pack. With some more time in the shop window for Saints he get his chance either at 12 or 13.

Maybe it's harsh to completely write off JTH but what does he offer that other centres don't?

So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

I would say that in Lancaster's mind the pecking order is Barritt, Allen, JTH then the rest.

That they are all very similar in how they attack also gives us a good idea how england will look to play. Hopefully by January the coaching team may have revised their opinions and made some changes to the Squad - but I cannot see them including anyone from outside the EPS unless there is a major problem. That was his favoured group of players in August

If 36 had been playing for a team in the HEC he may have been able to impress on the next stage up and force Lancaster's hand. As it is he has to make do with the Amlin which is a step down from the AP.


what does Jordan Turner-Hall offer? Why a name that turns easily into a 3 letter acronym, much beloved of Rugby board posters (and marketing people ). This automatically starts to infer god like abilities - POC, BOD, ROG, DOC, JTH (ok not as good as no vowel, but ....)

bluestonevedder wrote:So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

The same reason why Manu Tuilagi shouldn't be playing 12. Both are 13s.

It's a strange concept but why not play players in the position they are best at?

LondonTiger

Barritt was class at the weekend, I've had my doubts but would have no problems with him starting 12 next month.

Barritt 12, 36/Joseph 23.

JTH is a less rounded option than Barritt (mainly because his kicking is much more limited; his passing - often maligned - is actually very good but doesn't happen often with Quins' gameplan).

However, the Quins coaches have said that in terms of his stats and performances he is ahead of where Nonu was at the same age. There's potential for him to develop into that kind of international centre - if that's the way England want to go.

Personally, I think that without a Carter at 10, we would need a more Greenwood-like player at 12. But since we don't have either, it may be a question of what sort of player turns up first. It's ridiculously early to speculate, but Botica's debut and English passport does raise the glimmer of a Botica/JTH pairing at 10-12 as a future option...

Poorfour wrote:but Botica's debut and English passport

Where can you get one of those from? Mine is a UK one

Personally I don't want Botica (or Bowden when he qualifies) any where near the England team. Nor Botha or Waldrom. But that is a different thread I guess.

Botica's spent nearly half his life in the UK. He's got more of a claim to an England shirt than, say, Mike Catt had. But these things will always be a matter of personal preference.

bluestonevedder wrote:So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

Yes, he's just not very good at it.

I can't see a difference between Botica or Tuilagi or Armitages etc...

Poorfour wrote:Botica's spent nearly half his life in the UK. He's got more of a claim to an England shirt than, say, Mike Catt had. But these things will always be a matter of personal preference.

Guys! Another kiwi inside center? and you still haven't worked out that it's 2nd five eighths? No wonder it always goes wrong.

Poorfour wrote:Botica's spent nearly half his life in the UK. He's got more of a claim to an England shirt than, say, Mike Catt had. But these things will always be a matter of personal preference.

I was unaware of that bit, I thought it was just during the RL season when Frano played here - so 6 months a year for about 6 years. If you learnt to play rugby here i don't really care where you were born. If you have English parents and came back here in your teens I am fine. People with limited connections to England who start playing rugby here as an adult - to me that is not OK. As you say though it is a personal thing. Every country has done it in the past - most did not actually break the rules.

beshocked wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

The same reason why Manu Tuilagi shouldn't be playing 12. Both are 13s.

It's a strange concept but why not play players in the position they are best at?

LondonTiger

But from what I've seen, Joseph has got more of a kicking game than Manu, and reads the game very well. He's very creative and also makes space. Aren't those the attributes of a 12? So why can't he play there? Or has he even tried at AP level?

Manu I agree is a 13. He's not a 12, and shouldn't be tried there again.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

Yes, he's just not very good at it.

He's got the attributes for it, I thought it would suit his game.

But, thanks for the insightful answer.

bluestonevedder wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:So, does anyone know why joseph can't play 12?

Yes, he's just not very good at it.

He's got the attributes for it, I thought it would suit his game.

But, thanks for the insightful answer.

Sometimes things just are what they are.

Fair enough AWOP. I would still like to see him tried there at AP level a couple of times- I think he could handle it pretty well.

On the other hand Twelvetrees looked good at AP level too...you can't tell much.

He did yeh. Since his move to Gloucester, I think he's improved, and although not quite at the required level, is developig into a very decent 12. His distribution is excellent.

V Fiji

Barritt & Tuilagi first half.
Twelvetrees & Joseph Second Half

GeordieFalcon wrote:V Fiji

Barritt & Tuilagi first half.
Twelvetrees & Joseph Second Half

I doubt we will see two centres on the bench.

Unless Jospeh is the wing replacement maybe? Not sure though.

Or if drastically, 12trees is brought in as fly half cover....

I would not look to accommodate Joseph as a 12 but on the wing (where he does often play) and have Tuilagi inside him. You then have plenty of opportunity to mix the line up for different attacking options.

Realistic is perhaps that Monye starts with JJ off the bench.

IC as said above is Barritt's shirt to loose (or for someone to rip it off him and to be honest no one else is shining THAT brightly to force the issue)

Why are there 33 odd posts here?

Why are we such useless selectors?

Barrit should be given a couple more tests to cement the spot. If he can't it is Billy Twelvetrees jumper for 2015 and beyond. 36 is going to take it off him sooner or later anyway. Its just a question of timing.

End of.

Simple.

Actually, and depressingly, 2 centres (more likely if they both play the same specialist position) on the bench would not surprise me at all from Lancaster. It's like he doesn't know what to do with the concept of a bench!

Billy 36 is playing number 10 Thurs night against Bordeaux-Begles if anyone's interested.

Has Shane Geraghty even started a game for London Irish yet? Such a waste of talent

Burns must be getting a rest.

Did Begles used to be an individual team? Have they amalgamated with Bordeaux or have they always been together?

EnglishReign wrote:Billy 36 is playing number 10 Thurs night against Bordeaux-Begles if anyone's interested.

No.

No one is interested.

He is England's long overdue answer at 12.

Anyone who disagrees with that better put up a pretty good argument otherwise they have no business posting here.

That is all.

Lancaster likes 36 for his versatility, which is why he'll have a bit of hand up if he starts putting in some top performances. As we've all said before he has the rounded skill set of a perfect centre, with an excellent kicking game (both from the spot and out-of-hand) into the bargain.

Allen is good but not spectacular and JTH is just too limited with his passing and kicking game for my liking. If you want to play someone like that Banahan actually does a better job of it in my view, and he's learning to kick now.

Waldouck is a reasonable shout and his passing game is excellent. I don't think i've ever seen him kick though. He'll have to really outshine JTH and Allen in any head to heads in order to get back into the EPS I feel though.

Barritt is the man in possession and I have to say I thought he played a superb game for Saracens against Edinburgh. If he can be coaxed into attack a bit more by Flood/Burns he could nail the shirt down for a while.

For Fiji:

9. D Care
10. F Burns
11. N Abendanon
12. B Barritt
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Ashton
15. A Goode

21. B Youngs 22. T Flood 23. J Joseph

Triangulation wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Billy 36 is playing number 10 Thurs night against Bordeaux-Begles if anyone's interested.

No.

No one is interested.

He is England's long overdue answer at 12.

Anyone who disagrees with that better put up a pretty good argument otherwise they have no business posting here.

That is all.

I would assume that's because Taylor had a pretty poor game last week and Burns is still being rested.

36 Actually came on at FH and did very well in a tight game and awful conditions. He needs to stay at 12 though if you ask me.

Chjw131 wrote:36 Actually came on at FH and did very well in a tight game and awful conditions. He needs to stay at 12 though if you ask me.

Chjw131 is spot on as usual.

Let's try awfully hard not to feck up the best 12 we've had since Will Greenwood by moving him all over the backline shall we chaps?

Jolly good.

Barrit can be told that he better produce or he's gone. 36 needs to be in squad if he covers 10 then fine that makes him a viable bench option to start with over Farrell.

Whoever it is has to face people like Nonu, Jamie Roberts, Steyn, et al. Their defence has to be not just OK but top drawer. Barritt is the man with the shirt at the moment. Nobody else comes close but I'm hoping Burrell will in the near future.

englandglory4ever wrote:Whoever it is has to face people like Nonu, Jamie Roberts, Steyn, et al. Their defence has to be not just OK but top drawer. Barritt is the man with the shirt at the moment. Nobody else comes close but I'm hoping Burrell will in the near future.

Englandglory

Are you saying that 36 is not a good enough defender to play 12 for England?

I disagree with you if you are.

I think 36's defence has been very impressive this season (some huge hits)....wheres that come from? Or is it just regular gametime.

Barritt to start...36 on the bench (and he covers 10)

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think 36's defence has been very impressive this season (some huge hits)....wheres that come from? Or is it just regular gametime.

Barritt to start...36 on the bench (and he covers 10)

+1

Wasn't 36 always pretty good in defence?