Fight till the very end - who wins?

Purely for the sake of conversation.

If fights had no set amount of rounds and fights continued until a fighter was stopped or retired who would be the P4P ATG?

I guess the key elements would be stamina, chin and heart.

Would Mayweather and Whittaker be right up there due to them taking less punishment and good conditioining serving well into the late rounds?

Other contenders:

Jake Lamotta - tremendous chin dragging him deep into the fight and finally taking out his exhausted opponant.

George Chavulo (spelling) - possibly greatest chin ever and same sentiment as Lamotta.

Who would you pick or at least highly rate?

Have to say that LaMotta wouldn't have looked too good against Robinson after the St. Valentine Day's massacre if the Sugar Man had been permitted to continue punching him for the rest of the evening. Ditto Chuvalo against Foreman, I fear.

Like Monzon for this one. Simply remorseless.

Those with the greatest chins happen to be face first fighters. I wouldn't a cent on them winning. They will just take more punishment for longer.

I'll go for Hagler. Liston also.

I think someone like Tua would be much further ahead than he ought to be and Chavez sr who'd be rated higher than he already is. Boxers would suffer the most but inside fighters who roll and slip punches would go far far ahead.

Your choice of Hagler points to the inconsistency inherent within your first sentence, Az. He's a pretty good selection, although not, I would argue, as strong as Monzon. Liston surprises me; always thought Sonny needed to do damage early, myself.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Your choice of Hagler points to the inconsistency of your first sentence, Az. He's a pretty good selection, although not, I would argue, as strong as Monzon. Liston surprises me; always thought Sonny needed to do damage early, myself.

Nope. He mentioned Chuvalo and Jake. They had strong chins and were face first fighters. Sonny was just a thug and I'd have him in a death match anyday.

You said that those with the greatest chin happen to be face first fighters. Hagler had one of the greatest chins in history and wasn't. Nor was Monzon, whose chin was equally sound.

A death match, of course, isn't the same as a fight to the finish. It implies the absence of rules. Stamina here would be essential, not Liston's strong suit.

captain carrantuohil wrote:You said that those with the greatest chin happen to be face first fighters. Hagler had one of the greatest chins in history and wasn't. Nor was Monzon, whose chin was equally sound.

A death match, of course, isn't the same as a fight to the finish. It implies the absence of rules. Stamina here would be essential, not Liston's strong suit.

You misunderstand me. I meant the two that was picked. Ali had a great chin. Hardly a face first fighter.

Hadn't Liston fought a 15 rounder?

Sonny once went 12 with Eddie Machen and looked less menacing at the end than at the beginning. Otherwise, a couple of 10-rounders and a couple of nines.

Steve Colins could go on forever at a frightening pace.

A prime Holyfield would never give up, ever.

A prime Holy was stopped by Bowe, TMM. Great warrior, no doubt, but not unstoppable.

Sugar Ray Leonard and Duran would be two of the best at this, these two aren't losing to many people.

Wasn't he suffering from hepitaitis and a heart condition? when he was fit in his prime the likes of Lewis and Tyson couldn't even stun him, ATG chin.

I agree with Bellchees that Duran must feature somewhere in this; relentless as a 135 lb man and had that knack of coming on strong in the late stages. Swept plenty of good quality away in the championship rounds in the fifteen round era.

I think of today's batch, Froch would be nigh-on unbeatable at 168 lb.

monty junior wrote:Wasn't he suffering from hepitaitis and a heart condition? when he was fit in his prime the likes of Lewis and Tyson couldn't even stun him, ATG chin.

I wonder what aided his recovery after the Moorer fight

88Chris05 wrote:I agree with Bellchees that Duran must feature somewhere in this; relentless as a 135 lb man and had that knack of coming on strong in the late stages. Swept plenty of good quality away in the championship rounds in the fifteen round era.

I think of today's batch, Froch would be nigh-on unbeatable at 168 lb.

I'd disagree on Froch, I think he could have fought Ward for 2 or 3 days and not hurt him badly.

I think someone like Ibeabuchi would be an absolute nightmare as he is - if he was allowed to go on for 15-20 25 or however many rounds he's probably end up the greatest of all time. Also Calzaghe, endless stamina and excellent recovery although his hands might regret it. Pep, Jofre, Locche etc would fight for years on end- their opponents arms would fall off an hour or so into the fight.

Micky Ward would do well, he was a man that was meant to last and absorb punishment all night. Thinking about it, imagine Ward-Gatti had it been infinite rounds

I would pick hagler to be there at the top also, he was so bullishly strong, had power, great chin, superb conditioning, great stamina and he wasn't a brawler who absorbs 3 to get 1 off

Can't see chuvalo doing anything, true he had an awesome chin but wasn't really good enough to wear his opponents out moreso than himself. Tua is a good call, granite chin, power to turn a fight, high stamina, pretty much everything you want

The man with hepatitis and a heart condition managed to floor Bowe in the sixth, so I'm slightly sceptical about its effect overall. Just walked onto a lovely, crisp short right which he didn't see coming.

An obvious one we're missing actually would be Manny, I think this format would suit him.

Az won't like this, but Jeffries, who trained for 20-odd round fights, would have to rank quite highly in this category.

Henry Armstrong's style would wear down the most durable of opponents

Armstrong vs Chavez Sr would be fun

bellchees wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I agree with Bellchees that Duran must feature somewhere in this; relentless as a 135 lb man and had that knack of coming on strong in the late stages. Swept plenty of good quality away in the championship rounds in the fifteen round era.

I think of today's batch, Froch would be nigh-on unbeatable at 168 lb.

I'd disagree on Froch, I think he could have fought Ward for 2 or 3 days and not hurt him badly.

Intersting, Bellchees.

It's fairly obvious to me that Froch could never beat Ward in a boxing match as we know it, barring a astronomical upset. But in a fight where Froch has to keep coming at him for twenty-five rounds or so? Ward's a classy inside operator, but at the same time a fair amount of his success against Froch was based on winning the fight going away. He does have a tendancy to step off the gas just a wee bit late on, too. Whether this is down to conditioning or simply because he's in a strong enough position to do so (and it probably is the latter, to be fair) we can't be one hundred percent sure of either way, but boxing on the move against an iron-chinned war lord like Froch has to take a toll eventually, for me.

bellchees wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I agree with Bellchees that Duran must feature somewhere in this; relentless as a 135 lb man and had that knack of coming on strong in the late stages. Swept plenty of good quality away in the championship rounds in the fifteen round era.

I think of today's batch, Froch would be nigh-on unbeatable at 168 lb.

I'd disagree on Froch, I think he could have fought Ward for 2 or 3 days and not hurt him badly.

Are you sure, Ward was looking quite jaded in the 11th and 12th if I remember and Froch was having his best spell of the fight and looked fresh

Agreed with Chris and WHU - Wards only glaring weakness is his tank and he is visibly less effective at the end despite taking breather rounds. Over and endless fight Ward is tired and taken out by Froch

Jeffries,Langford and Johnso.n would be my best bets.

Jeffries' considerable attributes suited longer fights, and this makes him a strong contender against any heavyweight in history over forty five rounds or so. Men like Joe Louis, who fought at a measured pace, or Jack Johnson, who, while lightning fast when he wished to be, could also fight flat footed and rely on his superb reflexes and subtle movement to avoid punishment, would be the only favourites to beat him IMO

Cheers Rodders

captain carrantuohil wrote:Az won't like this, but Jeffries, who trained for 20-odd round fights, would have to rank quite highly in this category.

Funny enough I was going to mention him. Together with his bromide and Jack Daniel between rounds.

Thing is with a fair amount of the fighters, such as Jeffries that are mentioned I don't even think he'd last the 12 with Lewis etc. to be honest with you.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Thing is with a fair amount of the fighters, such as Jeffries that are mentioned I don't even think he'd last the 12 with Lewis etc. to be honest with you.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Thing is with a fair amount of the fighters, such as Jeffries that are mentioned I don't even think he'd last the 12 with Lewis etc. to be honest with you.

He'd better hope not, Lewis needed an oxygen tank after 8 rounds, never mind going 45 with a highly agile man like Jeffries.

Cheers Rodders

Granted if he can take Lewis' shots (Which would suprise me for a littler HW to take them) then he has a genuine shot, but for me he would probably get stopped in 6. Don't think he'd have the defensive nouse to stay away from Lewis or the chin to stay up.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Granted if he can take Lewis' shots (Which would suprise me for a littler HW to take them) then he has a genuine shot, but for me he would probably get stopped in 6. Don't think he'd have the defensive nouse to stay away from Lewis or the chin to stay up.

Alex Jeffries was a no midget in fact a shade over 6ft.2ins., weighed 220lb., (stats which measure up to Holyfields) he could sprint 100yards in under eleven seconds and high jump six feet.

In addition, his feats of strength were were absolutely astounding. These are documented, and require no interpretation. Anybody familiar with his training routines or the Jeffries story in general will know that his strength and athleticism would be a good match for today's heavies.

Most historians liken his strength to that of Foreman, and his left hook to that of Liston.

The only think Jeffries lacked was finesse. The rest he had in bucketloads.

Cheers Rodders

To add to what Rodders was saying Jeffries was indeed no midget, in his last defence against Monroe there was no official weigh in but most reports have him weighing anywhere between 219 and 240 with most agreeing he was around the 225lb mark (all agree none of it was fat), that is heavier than Liston weighed against Ali, Frazier weighed in any of his three Ali fights and is pretty much bang on what George Foreman weighed in at in the Rumble and nobody considers the idea of any of those being in with Lewis a physical mismatch.

We've come to a point Jeff where i think its easy to dismiss the old timers due to the super heavies we have these days, I always thought Lewis looked a better specimen when he weighed around the 16 half stone mark.

Lewis fought a Croatian Mavrovic who I'm sure would've weighed less than Jeffries, Lennox threw the kitchen sink and couldn't shift him, plent of evidence to suggest Jeffries would take Lewis into deep waters IMO.

Cheers Rodders

As I find myself frequently telling TSMR rodders bigger is not always better

captain carrantuohil wrote:A prime Holy was stopped by Bowe, TMM. Great warrior, no doubt, but not unstoppable.

I said Holyfield would never give up. Not that he was unstoppable?

While the "Bowe Trilogy" may have been the peak/highlight of his career I would argue a "prime Holyfield" campaigned at cruiserweight (regardless of the length of time he spent there at the top level). Given his warrior spirit, strength, ability and endurance he would beat any fighter in history, below 200lb, over the unlimited distance, IMO.

I'm never writing IMO ever again. It's written as a get out clause, sort of, "please don't attack me, it's only an opinion".

It's the most pointless three letter acronym in existence. Everything I write is obviously my opinion (unless I'm possessed each time I post, which i am not).


R.I.P I.M.O

JGI, TMM.

Has nobody mentioned Greb yet? Insane pace, speed and chin. Dirtier than coxy left in a room with Rachel Cordingley too.

JGI, enlighten me captain...

A Google search of JGI gives me Joint Genome Institute?

Hmmm....Joint Genome Institute, TMM.

Jolly Good Idea

Jolly good idea....

It is, too. I suppose I use "in my opinion" when I'm trying to emphasise that what I'm saying should be open to interpretation rather than a fact. With Evander, I hear what you're saying, although would say that I think that others at various weights have given a greater impression of permanence, if that's the right word. Always had the impression that Monzon would beat you the same whether the fight was scheduled for 15 or 50 rounds.

I agree with you about Monzon.

I'd have thought more obscure names, from way back when, would have been put forward by the more knowledgeable 606ers such as your good self, Chris, Manos, Ghosty, Rowley and the like. It's a shame because I like to learn.

I think this is strobe effect, black and white footage territory. Advantage to the old boys.... they're proven.

Ad Wolgast.

Pryor... Especially with panama in the corner in case he needed a pick me up.

Also, Once sanchez had taught him a valuable lesson, there was a relentlessness about azumah nelson that would have made him formidable over any distance

The format suits boxers and brawlers as they can conserve energy. Swarmers can't keep up the pace all night. Hagler would be a decent choice, as equally at ease boxing and in a war. I don't know enough about Monzon to offer any counter on this, so I'll accept the comment on face value that he would be better.

Barney Ross at lightweight would be the most likely to give Duran massive problems, iron chinned and one of the best at conserving energy, he would have to weather an almighty storm but history proves he could do it. At welterweight a fight to the finish between any of Robinson, burley and Gavilan is anyone's guess, would have to favour robbos superior power but I'd guarantee it would take all night for even him to finish them off.

TheMackemMawler wrote:I'm never writing IMO ever again. It's written as a get out clause, sort of, "please don't attack me, it's only an opinion".

It's the most pointless three letter acronym in existence. Everything I write is obviously my opinion (unless I'm possessed each time I post, which i am not).


R.I.P I.M.O

Very true but IMO i would still like to use it now and again!